posted
With the spread of distance-learning, all-online, and other non-traditional methods of achieving a college degree (many of them through accredited institutions), it is becoming easier and easier to receive a college degree without ever entering a college classroom.
Some of these institutions have been around for decades. Before Thomas Edison College had online classes and arrangements with various local non-accredited institutions, they had correspondence courses. They (and several other institutions following in their footsteps) encourage students to test out of as many requirements as possible (through CLEPs and other tests). This allows students to complete college in less time, but (arguably) with less breadth of knowledge.
Is the main point of a college degree the degree itself (and its ability to get its holder a job or a place in graduate school)? Or is it something less tangible, and if so, what?
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posted
I've always found this to be a really gray area.
I personally don't have a degree. Primarily because, while I was a junior in college, I was a programmer for IBM and other companies making upwards of $50K a year. I had already built up a reputation and a resume; in programming, that's all that really matters. Since then I haven't needed it, and am now making six figures without it.
I see it as a necessity for county/city/state government jobs. I guess they might consider it as one having served their penance or their debt to society. It sometimes feels like companies look upon people that don't have degrees as failures in life, unable to dedicate themselves to a cause.
I guess programming, or computer science in general, is one of the exceptions to the rule; it's a genre in which experience and hands on work beats any wall decoration one may have. Also, some of the best programmers I know don't have computer science degrees at all. I've worked with high level programmers with degrees in music, art, philosophy and English. For example, Yahn Bernier, lead programmer of Half-Life, is a patent attorney who just happens to program.
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It means nothing for the most part. Depends on the field, really.
I know, for a fact, that I have been a better worker and more qualified to do a managers job than half my managers who had degrees. That isn't just my opinion, but the opinion of my bosses, even those with degrees themselves.
In todays world, college is the new high school for most jobs.
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Well, to me, it means a piece of paper I'm working to get for my parents. They paid for my schooling when I went right after HS. I got a little over halfway through college and then life (or I guess my apparent disregard for) got in the way. I left college and when the calm that followed the storm came, I found myself a respected employee in a good job with a good company, all without a degree but still doing well.
The reason I say it's a piece of paper for my parents is that I sort of feel like I owe it to them to finish - so that they don't feel like I got nothing out of it and that there is tangible evidence of our efforts (financially, supportively and scholarly...). FTR - they don't even mention it to me or try to guilt me into finishing, I just personally feel like I owe it to them.
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rivka - After rereading your original post, I guess to me it's something less tangible. It will represent that I appreciate my parents and their Support and their Love for me.
Additionally, I learned a lot about people and the 'things' work while I was away at school. That's something I definitely couldn't have rcvd on-line. I was also given the opportunity to (this word makes me cringe because it's just so... whatever the word is) network for when I was out in the real world.
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I keep trying to type a response, but this topic always makes me really, really angry and sad.
Suffice it to say that college degrees have definitely become the new high school diploma, and in at most 50 years a graduate degree of some kind will have the same role. We'll be in school until we're 30 and in our jobs until the day we die.
posted
A college degree should prepare students for a reasonably academic career (I do not hold with degrees in ranching etc., which should be learned on ranches.) I think that, in the U.S., there is growing trend towards making colleges into very good secondary schools, rather than preparing students for specific careers. Ideally, a student wishing to work in ancient history should study the same liberal arts curriculum as his peers while in middle school, focus on history, literature and philosophy in secondary school, major in ancient history and archaeology in college and then do graduate work in a more specific field, e.g. Hellenistic sculpture. As it is, he may be taking courses in biotechnology, an important field but one which is likely to do him no good.
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posted
Would those of you who are saying that it means little or nothing agree that degrees from different institutions (such as Ivies and other well-respected colleges and universities) have different values? Or are they all just pieces of paper?
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I am a college professor at a Liberal Arts College in the Midwest. Here is my quick impression (but I reserve the right to change this as I think about it more).
The degree is a symbol of completion of a course of study--nothing more, nothing less. The course of study varies considerably and the amount of effort on must put into a given course also varies quite a bit (perhaps more than you realize.) The level of rigor in individual classes changes from school to school, professor to professor and even year to year among individual professors. (We have a tendency to experiment with out presentation) There is little hope of, or reason to try and standardize the experience. I know of some distance courses that are quite rigorous and worth while and some brick and mortar experiences that are a waste of time. That is the nature of the academy.
On-line or distance classes at accredited colleges are fine in my opinion. Of course the delivery system of the course changes the experience for the student in many ways, but ultimately what one gets from any course is what one is willing to put into it. Just because the virtual course is different from a traditioanl college classroom experience doesn't make it any better or any worse...it is just different.
posted
"We'll be in school until we're 30" I am hoping to get out at twenty-five, but it may be as late as twenty-eight. My dad was in school at forty-two, although he had worked for ten years before that, not including work as a student. That is what happens when you have too many letter behind your name (B.A., M.A., M.A.T., Ph.D., M.D., F.A.A.P. in his case, although he only uses the last three on his buisness card )
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posted
I think the more 'prestigious' the school the degree is from, the more it will make a recruiter push your resume to the top... I know a good number of people who have graduated from well renowned schools. Some of them got the most out of what the school had to offer and some just got the degree and a whole lot of party experience.
IMHO - If I were hiring people for my company, I'd prefer someone who graduated closer to the top of their class from the state university or community college than someone who skated by at an 'Ivy'. Not everyone looks at where you graduated in your class, though, just the school.
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Would those of you who are saying that it means little or nothing agree that degrees from different institutions (such as Ivies and other well-respected colleges and universities) have different values? Or are they all just pieces of paper?
Where you get your bachelor's degree from matters very little for most disciplines. For example, if a student wants to be a filmmaker, then USC or NYU are a good idea. If a student wants to be a middle school teacher, then your local 4-year is as good as any other that you can think of. Ivy league schools are good for very few things and most of them are not really related to your career choice. The Ivy's provide exposure to great intellectual things like speakers and perhaps some newtorking opportunities, but that is about it. It that worth $50K??? That is for each family to decide. It makes for some good bragging rights, and a lot of "oooh, aaahh's" but not for a better education in most cases.
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posted
In physics (and perhaps the other hard sciences, not sure about them), I think it means that you have served out your apprenticeship. Science is one of the last crafts where it still makes sense to think in terms of the old apprentice-journeyman-master model. I'd put the Master's as the journeyman piece, and a PhD as the masterwork. The PhD, then, says that you are fully qualified to do research without supervision. And, not incidentally, you escape quite a bit of the drudge work.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: In physics (and perhaps the other hard sciences, not sure about them), I think it means that you have served out your apprenticeship. Science is one of the last crafts where it still makes sense to think in terms of the old apprentice-journeyman-master model. I'd put the Master's as the journeyman piece, and a PhD as the masterwork. The PhD, then, says that you are fully qualified to do research without supervision. And, not incidentally, you escape quite a bit of the drudge work.
KOM,
Don't forget the arts. They do much like we do (I'm and evolutionary ecologist). Also I would recommend a change in your stages for science since many don't do the Master's thing any more. The ranks are more like Bachelor's = apprenticeship, PhD = journeyman, Post Doc = Masterwork. Posts: 514 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
ps - johnsonweed, i was trying to think of a clever way to sum up that the 'ivy' degree will also dazzle your hs classmates at the next reunion... you beat me to it.
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posted
I think it shows you can stick with something for 4 years. Oh, and that perhaps you learned how to learn.
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quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: I think it shows you can stick with something for 4 years. Oh, and that perhaps you learned how to learn.
But many non-traditional degrees take far less than four years, mostly by encouraging students to CLEP out of as many classes as possible. (Most traditional colleges have strict limitations on CLEPs and other credit-by-testing.) That is actually one of the primary selling points of places like Thomas Edison.
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posted
I tried to be clear that I was not speaking exclusively -- or even primarily -- about the Ivies. I also consider quite a number of other schools (some of which are far cheaper) "upper echelon" colleges. And to some degree that depends on the specific field -- there are schools which have wonderful film schools, but their pre-med degree is sub-par. Or places with wonderful liberal arts degrees, but horrible science departments.
Oh, and UCLA's film school is every bit as good as USC's. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: I think it shows you can stick with something for 4 years. Oh, and that perhaps you learned how to learn.
But many non-traditional degrees take far less than four years, mostly by encouraging students to CLEP out of as many classes as possible. (Most traditional colleges have strict limitations on CLEPs and other credit-by-testing.) That is actually one of the primary selling points of places like Thomas Edison.
I have found that students who CLEP out of coursework do not finish early they pick up a second major.
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posted
(i was using 'ivy' as a generalization for respected institutions, not necessarily just the ivy league schools)
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: With the spread of distance-learning, all-online, and other non-traditional methods of achieving a college degree (many of them through accredited institutions), it is becoming easier and easier to receive a college degree without ever entering a college classroom.
Is the main point of a college degree the degree itself (and its ability to get its holder a job or a place in graduate school)? Or is it something less tangible, and if so, what?
Some people go to college to get a degree. Some go to get an education. You can get one without the other, the education or the degree, or you can get both. For me, interaction, performance study, guidance from proffs and peers and hands on learning are what my education have given me. I know that I have achieved things I could not have done through the mail or online. The most memorable and to me the most important moments of my education have been in a classroom, at a cafe, in a performance hall, but never at my desk at home, or even in the university library.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I tried to be clear that I was not speaking exclusively -- or even primarily -- about the Ivies. I also consider quite a number of other schools (some of which are far cheaper) "upper echelon" colleges. And to some degree that depends on the specific field -- there are schools which have wonderful film schools, but their pre-med degree is sub-par. Or places with wonderful liberal arts degrees, but horrible science departments.
Oh, and UCLA's film school is every bit as good as USC's.
Good call on UCLA. I'm a UCR grad and I am shamed that I listed USC before a UC!!
Posts: 514 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by johnsonweed: I have found that students who CLEP out of coursework do not finish early they pick up a second major.
But you teach at a traditional college, correct? At non-traditional colleges (at least the ones which are selling the we-can-get-you-a-four-year-degree-in-two-years claims), that's simply not the case.
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quote:Originally posted by johnsonweed: I have found that students who CLEP out of coursework do not finish early they pick up a second major.
But you teach at a traditional college, correct? At non-traditional colleges (at least the ones which are selling the we-can-get-you-a-four-year-degree-in-two-years claims), that's simply not the case.
yes, that is probably true.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: For me, interaction, performance study, guidance from proffs and peers and hands on learning are what my education have given me. I know that I have achieved things I could not have done through the mail or online. The most memorable and to me the most important moments of my education have been in a classroom, at a cafe, in a performance hall, but never at my desk at home, or even in the university library.
Exactly! But how do you explain that to someone who wants to know why your institution can't get them a degree in the same short time period the non-traditional one claims?
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: For me, interaction, performance study, guidance from proffs and peers and hands on learning are what my education have given me. I know that I have achieved things I could not have done through the mail or online. The most memorable and to me the most important moments of my education have been in a classroom, at a cafe, in a performance hall, but never at my desk at home, or even in the university library.
Exactly! But how do you explain that to someone who wants to know why your institution can't get them a degree in the same short time period the non-traditional one claims?
That is ALWAYS a challenge when dealing with the students who want the degree beacuse they think it will get them a good paying job. My challenge is to convince some of these kids that the Gen-Ed courses are not something to "get over with." You should come to college (particularly a liberal arts college) for the education and to enrich your life. This generation of students (I call them the entitlement generation) do not always get it. It can be a tough sell.
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For me it doesn't matter whether its worth anything or not, my parents will make sure i get one whether i like it or not Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I kinda have to do the distance learning bit. It actually makes getting a degree achievable. That, and now by 2009 or 2011 I'm going to need a degree to advance to the next paygrade. Does it take anything away from me that I didn't/won't set foot in a classroom? I do and will put effort into getting that slip of paper. I pay my tuition (ok so the navy pays most of it. I still have to pay for the books and supplies).
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posted
I think its the tuition that really stops people from getting it, I know my parents won't be able to afford my tuition, and I'm not good enough at soccer, or smart enough to get a scholarship...
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quote:Originally posted by Stan the man: I kinda have to do the distance learning bit. It actually makes getting a degree achievable. That, and now by 2009 or 2011 I'm going to need a degree to advance to the next paygrade. Does it take anything away from me that I didn't set foot in a classroom? I put effort into getting that slip of paper. I paid my tuition (ok so the navy paid most of it. I still had to pay for the books and supplies).
IMO, there is a difference between students who use distance learning because they have little choice (military, single parents, etc.) and those who are doing it to get "the easy way out."
Anyway, I think our military personnel have already earned more respect and gained more experience than college grads from the most respected Ivy.
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quote:Or is it something less tangible, and if so, what?
I'm in the "less tangible" camp, but I think it depends highly on what you study. For many, College is preparation for a job or preparation for preparation for a job. For me, this isn't really the case.
The actual diploma is, to me, like any significant piece of paper, merely a marker (like money or a drivers' licence) to prove that I have done something that I said I did.
I think a college degree includes something along the lines of an adult willingness to do something. Even if you have learnt almost nothing at college, you have still done something to earn the piece of paper. People do still drop out of college and never get a degree (I'm counting people who had the opportunity to go, but chose not to, not those who never went or people who were forced to leave because of monetary concerns etc.), so there are people who are not willing to do whatever it is- so it is a meaningful distinction.
Yeah, that's as pretty non-tangible as you can get.
I don't think a college or university degree, in general (not from a specific school) has ever meant or guaranteed one specific thing. Idiots graduate from university all the time.
To me, the actual degree, in the broadest sense, says "I did the time."
Within that hugely broad catchall is everyone from the guy who scraped by on re-done courses to the 4.0 student who put in hours of research and study.
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Now that you put it that way ok. and unfortunately for me you quoted the original. I realized I typed that up as if I already had the degree. When in fact it is a work in progress. Tired, and chatting with a friend are my only escuse for that one.
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The actual diploma is, to me, like any significant piece of paper, merely a marker (like money or a drivers' licence) to prove that I have done something that I said I did.
You know, everything I want to say on hatrack can usually be summed up in the words "What Teshi said."
It's like you're a smarter and more articulate version of me.
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To prepare you for a lifetime of meeting the responsibilities of living in a liberal democracy. You should be prepared to begin to tackle these issues well on your own, everyday, and for the rest of your life.
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Irami, could you do me a favor and translate what you said into something a bit more concrete? What are the "responsibilities of living in a liberal democracy"? What issues?
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Not everything is on the web, but if your teacherly powers to get your hands on two essays, "The Schooling of a People," and "Teaching, Learning, and Their Counterfeits," both are found individually and in the compilation, "Reforming Education: The Opening of the American Mind" by Mortimer Adler, he lays everything out in plain english.
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From what I've seen of my husband working toward his degree, a distance learning degree is still definitely work.
Of course, the institution he's finishing his degree through is one that has been established as a decent school for a while and has three actual physical campuses, not just distance learning, although they're pushing to recruit more students for their online program right now. But still, I think that he's learning a lot and what he learns will be valuable in his field. Of course, his field (accounting) is one in which there are a lot of rules, regs, skills, and special processes that can be learned without a specific course in them, but are learned more easily if you devote time specifically to their study. Which would be why so many jobs absolutely require a degree to work in this field.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Not everything is on the web, but if your teacherly powers to get your hands on two essays, "The Schooling of a People," and "Teaching, Learning, and Their Counterfeits," both are found individually and in the compilation, "Reforming Education: The Opening of the American Mind" by Mortimer Adler, he lays everything out in plain english.
Translation: I don't want to explain it myself, so I'm going to dump the responsibility on you.
posted
Actually, I believe that responsibility is hers to begin with, and yours, too. I'm saving you a bit of time by pointing you in the right direction. No charge.
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Irami, I don't see how it's my responsibility to go out of my way to both find and decipher your notions, especially considering your hostile attitude.
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: From what I've seen of my husband working toward his degree, a distance learning degree is still definitely work.
And I certainly did not mean to imply otherwise, particularly for those programs offered through accredited institutions. (Non-accredited are a far more mixed bag.) But it seems to me that for most students, complete absence of classroom instruction is a real lack. (I have far more positive feelings about "hybrid" classes, which have reduced classroom hours, replaced by online hours.)
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The difference between a college degree and an education is the difference between a course taken for credit and an audited course. One can cost anywhere from $75 (for community college courses) to several thousand dollars, while you pay a nominal fee for the other.
The paper degree is a physical announcement of how you've been spending your time. You could learn nearly as much from books from the library, but there's no accountability - there's no way a potential employer can easily see how much you've learned. Same thing with an audit course. A degree, on the other hand, if its from a reputable institution has some level of accountability.
My university recently voted to make the group requirements stricter - that's because it wants to maintain its reputation as a strong liberal arts college that turns out well-rounded students who have been challenged. Alumni know this, which is why a lot of our graduates get jobs through alumni networking. Other universities - such as the ivy league schools have similar reputations.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: But many non-traditional degrees take far less than four years, mostly by encouraging students to CLEP out of as many classes as possible. (Most traditional colleges have strict limitations on CLEPs and other credit-by-testing.) That is actually one of the primary selling points of places like Thomas Edison.
Four years was an arbitrary number. Seems like the average is more like five, now.
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