posted
I have seen many references to catholics feeling guilty all the time, as though it's an inside joke, with only me on the outside.
Somebody wanna explain this to me? What is so guilt-indicing about catholicism as opposed to other religions?
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posted
I don't care if it's true or not. I want to know where the perception comes from. From what I've seen of Catholicism, I don't see where it comes from.
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posted
I think a lot of it has to do with the devices higher-ups in the religion use (or have used) to keep people from doing bad things. It focused more on "God can see you doing those bad things!" and less on "You shouldn't do those things for these proveable reasons." But I'm not Catholic, although my mom was, so I'm not a definitive expert on the topic.
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posted
I think it also may have something to do with comparing a traditional theology with the modern trend for Feel Good Churches that don't emphisize the "thou shalt nots".
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1) Catholicism is old enough to sustain a sense of gravity as the One True Church.
2) The peril of ones soul depends so heavily upon ones deeds in this world, evidenced by the litany and percision with which every sin can be catalogued. I think it's different when faith alone is enough to be well-pleasing in the eyes of God. Guilt comes from a failure to fulfill ones responsibilities, and I think it's different if a Protestant's primary God given responsibility is to have faith.
3) The seemingly endless parade of bloody martyrs and Saints who have died for the faith still play a prominent role, and comparing yourself to one who has been defenstrated or decapitated or otherwise tortured for the church evokes a sense of unworthiness.
4) There is a severity at every level of the religion that enforces guilt.
posted
I think the problem might be that I've been comparing it to Mormonism instead of Protestantism. (Is that even an ism? Anyway, you know what I mean.)
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posted
I would suspect that confession has something to do with it as well.
Ruyoko's comment is definitely true from some Catholic teachers - including almost whole Dioceses at times. It's not inherent in Catholic theology, but it definitely happens on a widespread scale.
Irami's 2-4 (as to the Catholic parts - I can't comment on the accuracy of anything about Protestants) all are factors.
But, if I had to pick one, it would be confession. As the rate of confession falls, it seems the guilt stereotype falls as well.
I also think there's a cultural aspect, in that many of the U.S. ethnicities that are primarily Catholic also have cultural memes of guilt as a method of family motivation. It might come from Catholicism, but I have noticed the tendency is greatly reduced in German Catholics.
I think the stereotype is fairly derived but represents a dramatic oversimplification of the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, it's one many Catholics subscribe to.
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posted
I thought it was the nuns teaching Catholic school who used to tell you that if you fought with your brother, disobeyed your mother, etc., etc., you were GOING TO HELL. That's what my dad says, anyway. The nuns I know who teach at Catholic schools are all very sweet. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I grew up Catholic, and I went to Catholic school. I went through a few of the sacraments-- Baptism, eucharist, confession-- and I stopped short of confirmation.
I can still say an act of contrition on command, which is disturbing because I recited the prayer for years without understanding the word contrition.
Here is an example of guilt, though. Every day before the final bell, we said an Act of Contrition. Even in the early years before our first confession, at the end of every day, we asked forgiveness for all of the sins of the day.
That's a little odd. We didn't ask for strength or praise Jesus, instead, we did an Act of Contrition. The more I think about it, the stranger it sounds.
As to the severity, Catholic clergy take a vow of celibacy so as not to divide attention from God. For the church to call so many people to do this, I find to be a comparably severe. Sure, Priests can drink or smoke, but I think that they gave up the big one that makes the other temptations pale in comparison.
posted
Synesthesia - original sin is washed away with baptism. That's why there's the rush to do it when the baby's so young.
I grew up in an uber-catholic family... never really dialed into it personally but have seen how it's played a major part in the lives of the people I care about.
I'm not sure where it originally came from, but I know that it's there. There's this idyllic vision of what you're SUPPOSED to live. Happy home, successful husband, beautiful children, righteous life. Dress your best for church every Sunday, make sure your children behave well through mass, never deviate from the commandments.
What I've learned is that this ideal isn't realistic and part of the guilt comes from not being able to achieve what you think everyone else is living. I don't really know how to put it into words well, but to me ‘catholic guilt’ is a tangible thing.
It's almost a classic example of 'keeping up with the Jones'' - only it rips you up inside when you can't.
Catholicism is more about your life determining your afterlife as opposed to predetermination... People get so caught up trying to ensure their passage into Heaven that they forget to enjoy their Lives.
That's just my opinion, though.
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posted
I think the parochial school system has a lot to do with it as well. When teachers are also religious authority figures the sheer number of them kids are exposed to increases the chances that they'll meet a few (or more) who use religious guilt as a primary motivator.
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quote:2) The peril of ones soul depends so heavily upon ones deeds in this world, evidenced by the litany and percision with which every sin can be catalogued.
Not just deeds but also decisions. All you have to do is decide to commit a sin to be guilty of it (well, knowing that it's a sin is part of it too I think), even if you back out later.
Any actual Catholics on here, feel free to correct me if I'm off. Getting your knowledge of other religions from fantasy/SF novels is an entertaining method but not always accurate.
On a less serious note:
quote:and comparing yourself to one who has been defenstrated
You totally just used a derivation of one of two my favorite words in a sentence without any prompting from me, don't pretend you didn't.
Now all I have to do is find someone to use "methylchlorisothiazolinone" in a sentence, spelled correctly and demonstrating a knowledge of its meaning.
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posted
'Evil thoughts' are frowned upon, but the reconciliation is much less than if you had actualized... A lot of the severity of fault also seems to do with when/how you realize your discretions.
Irami Osei-Frimpong, I did make my confirmation... I went to parochial school but (as loud-spoken as i am, begged and i do mean begged) my parents for public school from third grade on... Confirmation and the confessional leading up to it were awesome for me. It was a great experience, honestly. I got the chance to look a Brother in the eye and tell him what I thought was bogus within the religion and listen to him tell me, while looking me in the eye, that YES he agreed on some points. That change takes time. That a true Religion is ever changing and evolving. I learned so much about Life in that experience...
I look at my confirmation as a conscious decision to try to live not just for myself but with Others in mind. I look at it as a confirmation more of my belief… in a higher power, something greater than myself, some basic ‘golden rule’ type theories, than necessarily what the popular catholic belief is. After speaking with the Brother, he made me believe I was confirming to what I personally believed the religion, the ideal set, WANTED to be (not was or is). I see it as my acknowledgement that I have a lot to learn.
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posted
Confession was actually why I left the Catholic Church. I remember going through my First Communion and being utterly filled with guilt when asked to confess to a priest for the first time. It was more than my fifth grade sanity could handle.
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posted
I'm not currently Catholic, but my mother is/was. I was baptized, and follow, well, very few of the "rules" that go along with Catholicism. But I understand something perhaps of the guilt stereotype. I feel guilty every year around Lent, because I don't follow any of the rules regarding giving up meat on whatever day it is now that I'm supposed to. I believe my reasons for not following it are good ones, but still I feel guilty if and when I eat a hamburger on friday during Lent. I chalk it up to years of experiencing my mother following the religion, and her nudging me to do so as well.
Now it's just ingrained, I always feel guilty when I do it during Lent, but it doesn't stop me, just makes me enjoy the burger a little less. Maybe there's so much guilt because so many people are leaving the church who either WERE members or who had parents who were, and the guilt comes from latent ideas or rules that were pounded into their heads for so many years, it's hard to shake an old habit.
Jim Gaffigan, a quirky and very funny comedian said Catholics view the Bible as more of a rule book. This is what you can do, this is what you can't do, now good luck finding the loop holes, basically. I think that mentality also feeds into the guilt.
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posted
In matters pertaining to religious education of children, it is easy to make things sound like horrid indoctrination -- filling heads with unprovable nonsense.
I would hope that in this discussion (of Catholic "guilt") some basic understanding and even empathy could be mustered. Those of us who grew up in the Catholic faith and especially those who attended parochial school, didn't just imbibe a lesson of guilt while there. Consider that most of the education was from nuns, and especially in the younger grades, with young nuns who had recently taken their vows. Their job was, at least in religion classes, to get across some very arcane concepts in ways that children could understand. The reason they had to get those concepts across is that the sacraments of Penance and Holy Communion are serious business in the Catholic church. At the age of seven, a Catholic child is expected to have the reasoning capacity to become responsible for his/her sins. It's not a magic switch that's flipped, of course -- responsible behavior is a life lesson taught from the earliest ages possible, and in different ways, but at the age when you make your first Confession and are included in the Holy Communion, you are expected to understand a few things. And (for reasons I'm not qualified to explain) Catholics believe that you should not take Communion with God and the congregation unless you are prepared, first through education and later (every week) with confession. The sacrament of penance is for cleansing, not guilt, although sure...guilt motivates people and it's probably easier to get a group of kids to do something out of guilt than it is to instill a desire to keep their souls clear of sin.
But hey...why is this at all important?
Because the situation (again, in religion class specifically) is that you have a group of kids struggling to understand difficult concepts, a young person full of zeal for the vows they've taken and the importance of the task before them, and it's all VERY serious to everyone but the vast majority of the kids. It's serious because after taking the sacrament, (really after achieving a certain reasoning level), it's possible to go to Hell when you die.
In truth, probably a lot of people get taught by lack-luster folks whose vocation does not necessarily include education. It's certainly possible that guilt becomes part of the process of culturalization for children (and adults). It's all possible, but there's deeper and more sincere concern behind it than manipulation and control.
Sadly, I think the Catholic church has some serious problems and has fallen on hard times in part because of the guilt thing. It just didn't translate well into the 20th century, and less so into the 21st. Whether that's the church's fault or whether it's the culture that grew up around some of the church's doctrines, I can't really say.
But there are an awful lot of angry ex-Catholics out there who never really understood the whole message of the church but who got the guilt message loud and clear. And rejected it.
There are also movements within the Catholic church as well. Things that, in time, may change the way the Church approaches instruction and maybe even will change the culture that children grow up with inside the Church.
I've seen it work well. I've seen it work poorly.
I've seen some saintly human beings wearing religious garb. And I've seen some mean-spirited, blathering idiots.
I defy anyone to claim any different of any religion, really.
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posted
Perhaps this experience is common among those, like me, who went to Catholic school as a kid. Every now and then we'd get a little rowdy in the lunch room or play ground. After our rowdiness, one of the head nuns, and occasionally a priest from the cathedral across the street, would come into class and go into this long lecture on how thoroughly bad and ill-behaved we were. And it'd always end with me feeling very guilty about what had happened even though I usually had nothing to do with the instigating event. Seriously, I'd done nothing wrong, but they could still make you feel guilty about it. I've always thought that the ability to make you feel guilty for something you haven't done was a unique ability (gift) of the Catholic clergy.
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posted
I think a lot of people here in this thread have hit on points of where this concept of Catholic Guilt come from (Parochial school, ethnic heritage, confession etc.) However, I'd like to give an example of how it can be a good thing taken in the right light and right proportion.
Take me for example: Born and raised Catholic (missed parochial grade school), Catholic highschool, very active in youth ministry all through highschool and a fair amount through college. Recently (post graduation) I've fallen away from the church for various reasons.
I definately still feel guilt about many things that I do/have done, but the key for me is degree. I feel guilt that I don't go to church at the moment because I know it would be good for my spiritual life, I feel guilty for the teachings of the church that I don't abide by because I know that most of them are good ideas. The key in my mind is not to be crippled by this guilt, and not to use it as a "not as good as the Jones'" type thing.
I say to myself: Hey most of these guidelines/rules presented by the church are really solid ideas and were you to abide by them all life would almost certainly be better. however, I'm imperfect, as everyone else is. So, while I'm sad/guilty that I am not perfect, I also make a point not to let it rule my life because none of us are.
If this means that I'll be going to hell because I haven't done enough to be a good person and follow the teachings of the church it will be a sad thing, but it won't be because I didn't know what direction to be aiming for, only that I didn't work hard enough to get there.
It's all about not letting it rule your life, just as with anything else. Guilt in moderation is a good motivating force, just like stress, joy, friendship, depression can all be healthy as long as they don't get taken too far.
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posted
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'm a fan of guilt. I think that a capacity for guilt is inextricably tied to a sense of reverence and dignity. Guilt, like ritalin, is often overprescribed, but when cultivated wisely, feeling guilt at the appropriate times is a sign of civility and maturity.
On a related topic, I also like a good public shaming.
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quote:Sadly, I think the Catholic church has some serious problems and has fallen on hard times in part because of the guilt thing. It just didn't translate well into the 20th century, and less so into the 21st. Whether that's the church's fault or whether it's the culture that grew up around some of the church's doctrines, I can't really say. But there are an awful lot of angry ex-Catholics out there who never really understood the whole message of the church but who got the guilt message loud and clear. And rejected it.
If I'm taking your post correctly, it appears you think of this more as an education issue. I think that's a very astute way of looking at it and agree that this is at the heart of the issue.
I think the failure isn't in attempting to get people to recognize that there are actions that are right and actions that are wrong, a distinction not limited to actions that hurt others and actions that don't. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with the general concept that feeling guilty is a necessary thing for anyone who both sins but also desires to act in a moral fashion.
The problem crops up when the lesson about what guilt is for and how we should respond to it is not learned along with the specifics of when we should feel guilt. The latter is much simpler to understand, the latter is a very difficult concept that is at the heart of Catholicism.
Guilt itself is a learning tool. The feeling of guilt is evidence of both our moral development and our moral failing. I think the former is not internalized by many students.
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And I find encouragement in the new trend toward Catholic "communities" and connectedness to their community as a refreshing change from the old model of how a Catholic church operates at the local level. I believe that the resolultion of guilt through Penance is a good thing. But I think that an emphasis on faith and human interaction is going to be more important to Catholicism in the long run. These are related in my mind because I think that when people start to work for change in their communities they often start to feel better (or actually GOOD) about themselves and learn to express their faith in outward ways. That has an equally good effect on their faith's expression inwardly, I think. I'd like to call it maturation.
And I think you're saying that this has been part of Catholicism all along. At least I find that those who study the Catechism seem to have a more balanced view of what it means to be a Catholic than the vast run of casual mass attendees, and part of that has to do with the deeper teachings of the church being about something more profound than sin and guilt.
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posted
I think the emphasis of Catholicism on salvation not coming through faith alone is a big part of the guilt. Because you're going to be judged in part by your actions, you feel a more acute sense of where you fail to live up to the code.
As far as Reconciliation goes, I think what hurts things here is the traditional confession behind a screen, and the handing of penances that feel like punishment. The whole message there is that you should feel ashamed. And while some have spoken eloquently in this thread about the value of guilt, I think the shame gets in the way of realizaing that all are sinners. The whole experience is so threatening that many people never go to penance, they withhold their worst sins when they do, and they resent the whole process. And when the penance is three Hail Maries for a minor sin, and maybe ten Our Fathers for something worse, and maybe a rosary or two if you've been really bad, how can you escape the twin conclusions that A) the process is intended to be punitive and 2) prayer is unpleasant? For me it was a welcome change the first time I went to confession without the screen, and even more than that was when I finally found a priest who treated Reconciliation as spiritual advisement. This is not to say that acknowledging one's faults was no longer part of the act, but that it became a conversation with a sympathetic fellow sinner who was also a spiritual example, and who could help me work toward avoiding the attitudes that I needed to avoid. Confession also became less about enumeration of sins and more about exploring the attitudes that the sins were indicative of. Penance became more about contemplating the type of change I wanted to make and putting it into effect, and prayer was seen more as a way of giving thanks for the ability to bridge my gaps with God.
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posted
Irami, I take back what I said about yours being an external view of the faith.
Sadly, your experience seems to conform to what I consider to be the worst stereotypes about Catholicism. I certainly have seen it practiced in that manner, but I have seen Catholicism practiced in such a way that it is more about spiritual growth than about severity and punishment. Guilt may not be a bad thing, but guilt without any sense of joy or community isn't a good thing.
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posted
Guilt is a worthless thing unless it inspires change. Too many people stop with feeling guilty and never do anything about it.
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quote:Guilt is a worthless thing unless it inspires change. Too many people stop with feeling guilty and never do anything about it.
Yes.
quote:And I think you're saying that this has been part of Catholicism all along.
It's part and parcel of the Catholicism I learned. I was blessed with a string of excellent religion/CCD teachers all the way through confirmation in 11th grade.
In twelfth grade, my weekly religious ed class was one real-world situations - some personal, some broad in scope. We were encouraged to discuss what we would do and why. Our faith was one element of the entire discussion, and the emphasis was on integration of faith into decision-making as a day-to-day occurrence rather than something to be thought about separately. The group picture of that class is the only picture I have displayed from high school.
One of the recurring themes was what to do after you realize something you did was wrong - whether practically or morally. Unfortunately, these are lessons I've had to use quite often. But, it allows you to truly leave guilt-inducing incidents behind. You recognize both your responsibility and your limitations, which means that after a certain point, you can release the guilt without forgetting the lesson.
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posted
I, for one, have never really felt a sense of "Catholic guilt". For me, I believe there are several reasons for this.
One of the main things that I have experienced (that I find others have not) is that I have ALWAYS referred to the sacrament of reconciliation as just that, reconcilation. Some people that i know today, grew up calling it penance. This, I believe, emphasized the negative to them. I grew up being taught that we go to the sacrament to admit our sorrow at having done something wrong and to find a way to atone for that. I like to have one "confessor" who I know and trust and who can really help me to overcome my obstacles rather than simply giving me three Hail Marys and a pat on the wrist. To me reconciliation has always been about moving past my sins and growing from them. Others have gone to "Penance" a sacrament where they repeat a list of sins to an old guy behind a screen. That would not help my spiritual journey very much.
The other fortunate aspect in my life is that I have grown up surrounded by faith communities that have always taught me that my actions are not always the most important things. I have learned that trying hard to be a good person is also important, too. Sure we make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. What's important is that we grow from them and that we are not condemned because of them.
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posted
I'm only just in the process of becoming Catholic, but I've grown up in a Protestant school for many years. Ever year, World Vision used to come in and we'd have what was informally known as "guilt chapel". I think that is what really taught me, in the end, about guilt. I learned that if something isn't my fault, contrary to popular opinion (and I got called a horrible person for this), I shouldn't feel guilty. It is more important that I try to do what I can and save guilt for when I need forgiveness.
In the area of Catholicism, I've found that Confession is a very good thing and it should be encouraged. The idea of it inspiring guilt strikes me as foreign, although if people are misunderstanding it I can see how they might find it causes guilt. One day at a Eucharistic adoration event, I found myself being called to go to Confession afterwards. People can debate if it was just myself or God, but I lean towards the latter despite now knowing (although I didn't at the time) that not being in full communion, I oughtn't have gone. However I went and explained my current "status", as it were, to the priest and confessed all that I could remember up until that point. And when he declared my sins absolved I could feel the grace of the sacrament sweeping through me and making changes. I find it a sad thing that so many people never seem to experience that.
I also think it's a bit of a fallacy to see penance as punishment. I personally do not believe that it is essential for God's grace that we do something, but I do believe that it is important for us to show submission to Him, especially after we have sinned and confessed. So I see it more as an act of love and the priest has told us which act we ought to do on this occasion.
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At least with Baptism, Catholics recognize a "baptism of desire." I suspect that your situation with respect to the Sacrament of Reconciliation is at least analogous and I'm glad the priest treated it as valid. It makes perfect sense ot me.
I also agree about penance =/ punishment. In my experience, but I can't really speak for Catholic doctrine, the absolution is not conditional upon doing the prescribed penance. You are absolved before you leave the priest's presence. The penance is therefore not punishment, but more part of the person's act of contrition.
I could be missing some key doctrinal points here, though.
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posted
all good points so far, and I'd like to also chime in on the plusses of good confessions. Having most of my experiences of confession with priests I knew, generally face-to-face and often with pennance of things like: "when you feel tempted to do X sin, instead go do Y instead." or "pray for X person because they are going through some tough times right now"
These are the kinds of things that actually help address the source of your problems, and really stick with you, rather than just burdening you with guilt.
Just the fact that I remember a specific pennance from a confession about 10 years ago speaks volumes.
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