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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Sometimes "anger" isn't a strong enough word.

   
Author Topic: Sometimes "anger" isn't a strong enough word.
Dagonee
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The Times published a two part series on child pornography and the web. (Use http://www.bugmenot.com/ to log in.)

From the Aug. 21 article:

quote:
Today, pedophiles go online to seek tips for getting near children — at camps, through foster care, at community gatherings and at countless other events. They swap stories about day-to-day encounters with minors. And they make use of technology to help take their arguments to others, like sharing online a printable booklet to be distributed to children that extols the benefits of sex with adults.

The community’s online infrastructure is surprisingly elaborate. There are Internet radio stations run by and for pedophiles; a putative charity that raised money to send Eastern European children to a camp where they were apparently visited by pedophiles; and an online jewelry company that markets pendants proclaiming the wearer as being sexually attracted to children, allowing anyone in the know to recognize them.

...

In this online community, pedophiles view themselves as the vanguard of a nascent movement seeking legalization of child pornography and the loosening of age-of-consent laws. They portray themselves as battling for children’s rights to engage in sex with adults, a fight they liken to the civil rights movement. And while their effort has brought little success, they celebrated online in May when a small group of men in the Netherlands formed a pedophile political party, and they rejoiced again last month when a Dutch court upheld the party’s right to exist.

It's worth reading both articles.

The presence of child pornography on the web doesn't surprise me. Each instance of actual photos represents the exploitation of a particular child.

What scares me more than the Internet as a distribution method, however, is the striving for legitimacy.

We had a discussion about whether evil exists a little while ago. This is evil.

I'm not necessarily going to say that every person who has sex with a child is evil. They might be incredibly ignorant. They might be truly unable to control their actions. They might be non-evil people committing evil acts.

But someone who wants to make sex with children acceptable - who paints it as moral and good and those who oppose it as oppressors of civil rights - is evil.

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cmc
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I clicked the first link and got the editor's note... but I get the gist, I think.

Very, very horrible.

Don't really know what else to say - no clever quips, no intelligent points to make, no harsh words to fire back. Just feeling sort of sick - for the children caught up in it through no fault of their own, the adults who know better yet don't care and the people who don't even realize it's wrong.

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GeronL
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What scares me more than the Internet as a distribution method, however, is the striving for legitimacy

do a google search for "Dakota Fanning"+dogpile

be prepared to vomit

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Puffy Treat
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Yes, this is evil.

And the scary thing is, I think the barriers are growing thinner all the time.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by GeronL:
What scares me more than the Internet as a distribution method, however, is the striving for legitimacy

do a google search for "Dakota Fanning"+dogpile

be prepared to vomit

No.


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

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King of Men
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Hum. I think I'm glad I had the foresight to look up just plain 'Dakota Fanning' on the WIki; I don't think I want to know what happens when you add 'dogpile'.
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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
“My daughter and I have a healthy close relationship,” a person with the screen name Sonali posted. “We have been in a ‘consensual sexual relationship’ almost two months now.”

The daughter, Sonali wrote, is 10. Whatever guilt Sonali felt for the relationship was eased by the postings of other pedophiles. “I am so happy to find this site,” Sonali wrote. “I thought having a sexual attraction to my daughter was bad. I now do not feel guilty or conflicted.”

[Roll Eyes]

I want to send these people a message:

I've known that child later in life. I've known many.

What you're doing IS bad.

That child HAS NO outlet. They don't have a way to deal with the guilt, confusion, etc. They rely on YOU (their dad, uncle, cousin, whatever). And you are their abuser.

You may not have started out evil, but you are evil now. What you are doing is evil because it is about you, and even though you say it's about the child (too) you can't really know the effect on that child -- what he or she is internalizing, how they'll deal with adult relationships as a result of this, how they may insulate themselves from others. But that all benefits YOU!.

UGH!

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quidscribis
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The message I want to send these people is a bullet between the eyes.

But that's just me.

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Eduardo St. Elmo
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in stead of anger, try using:

rage, wrath, fury etc. to me they trump anger by quite a bit.

If those don't suit you there's always righteous indignation.

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vonk
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quote:
a putative charity that raised money to send Eastern European children to a camp where they were apparently visited by pedophiles
This part literally made me sick to my stomach. This happens? People know about it? And they don't stop it? If a reporter can find out about it, how can it still be going on? How is it not stopped immediately, and violently?

The entire article was very disturbing, as is the knowledge that people commit such acts regularly, but to know that ther are actually camps, where people can... GAH!, I don't even want to think about it. That is wrong, and yes Dag, evil, to the nth degree.

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Scott R
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This is why it's so important to teach your children that you love them. Because predators know how to fake love and how to make young minds respond to it, parents have to show that real love is worth more, feels better, and isn't reliant on anything but that child's existence.

Every child is entitled to Real Love. A father with Real Love teaches his children confidence and intelligence and trust. A mother teaches her children that Real Love is the opposite of deception. Real Love means the child isn't afraid of what the parents think, because at the end of whatever childhood horror he or she has suffered or done, are two adult arms or four adult arms that enfold and protect and comfort, no matter what. Children who have Real Lov(ing) parents know that they can trust Mom and Dad with anything, and because Mom and Dad have Real Love, they are safe.

Real Love isn't stultifying or confining; it means building a child up to be confident in himself, because you start off with, "You're valuable because you are." Real Love can do lots of things-- there are twists and curls along its frame-- but it never goes back on this. Every child has worth, simply by being born. Secondarily, the parent with Real Love adds, "You have worth because I love you, and nothing you or anyone can do can make me stop."


Will you...?

Will you sing me a song of Canterby Downs
While we wait in the mall as mom shops around?
Will you play the part of Jikskizzle the Gloop
While I conquer kingdoms as brave Captain Shoot?
Will you build me a treefort from old lumber and nails
And rebuild it again when the secret door fails?
Will you shout with me loudly outside in the snow
And wonder, come springtime, where snow-monsters go?
Will you swear on your life to keep secret the place
Where we buried the treasure of Morty Pig-face?
Will you shimmy and sway to the grocery store beat
And amidst the potatoes, swing me head over feet?
Will you search for a cure if ever I’m cursed
By a coven of witches and turned to bratwurst?
Will you love me no matter the hair I might sprout
And keep me beside you and not toss me out?


What if I’m kidnapped by pirates from Schnogg?
What if I’m chased by Fang-fanny the dog?
What if my school is an alien lander,
Or I’m dared to eat worms by Jason Morander?
What if I’m lost while camping out back,
And a hungry old troll stuffs me into a sack?
What if my very best friend in the world
Leaves me all alone, to play tea with the girls?

Will you chase down the pirates and cage up the dog?
Will you fight off invaders and dare Jason with frogs?
Will you come hunting for us, both the troll and for me,
And summon your magic to help me go free?

I’ll be your very best friend on the earth,
And I’ll find you wherever, from Fairbanks to Perth.
I’ll be there to hold you, and make it all right—
And in the dark darkness, I’ll turn on the light.
No troll can keep you away from my love,
No alien starship can drag you above
Where my strength cannot reach you—it cannot be done.
For I am your Daddy and you are my son.


It's beyond important to teach our children Real Love.

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romanylass
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This is just sick and scary.
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KarlEd
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Thanks for making me cry at work Scott.


[Blushing]

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Scott R
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Any time, Karl.
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rivka
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(Oh, good. It's not just me sniffling in my office.)
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Sterling
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Just about everyone wants to believe that they're basically okay.

In this case, you have to wonder how some people could foster such delusions.

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Scott R
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I get angry at this topic, too. I get angry so much, I have a hard time concentrating on other things.

That's why I have to make a conscious decision to focus on what I can actually do to make things better for the children I know when this topic of conversation comes around. Because if I focus on the predators, I become a gibbering, raving lunatic, and I'm unpleasant to be around.

It's about the kids. Not the kinks.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Because if I focus on the predators, I become a gibbering, raving lunatic, and I'm unpleasant to be around.
I figure I'm 3 to 4 years from focusing on the predators.

quote:
And they don't stop it? If a reporter can find out about it, how can it still be going on?
The camp scheme was shut down. I don't think I've ever read an investigative article on this where the paper or magazine hasn't said they've turned the evidence over to the authorities.

From something the times said, I think there's a federal law requiring reporting of child porn if you come across it accidentally on the web. Don't know the details, though.

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Orincoro
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Yeah. I also work with kids- Teens, and I was a day camp counselor for 5-12 year olds for 4 summers. Its pretty much inconcievable to me how this type of thing is justified by people. UGH is right.

Ugh. THat is all.

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Scott R
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Dagonee:
quote:
I'm 3 to 4 years from focusing on the predators.
[Smile]

God bless you and your work-to-be.

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Glenn Arnold
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Pedophiles use childrens' natural curiosity to make sure that the child feels that they initiated sexual contact.

quote:
I’ll be your very best friend on the earth,
And I’ll find you wherever, from Fairbanks to Perth.
I’ll be there to hold you, and make it all right—
And in the dark darkness, I’ll turn on the light.
No troll can keep you away from my love,
No alien starship can drag you above
Where my strength cannot reach you—it cannot be done.
For I am your Daddy and you are my son.

While the intended sentiment of the passage above is heartwarming, pedophiles are very good at using words like this to manipulate children for their own intentions. "I'm your best friend" means that the child can talk to the adult about sexual questions that other adults will not. It means that if the child is caught masturbating or reading pornography, the adult will comfort them because "You're mature enough to handle this. Nudity is nothing to be ashamed of. After all, the human body is beautiful and natural." This is the tool the pedophile uses to encourage the child to open up with sexual curiosity, and thus gives the pedophile ammunition they can use to manipulate the child.

What children need to hear is not that their parent is their best friend. Exclusive language like "Only I can take care of you" sends a message that other adults will not be understanding or forgiving. Pedophiles use this to keep children from telling other adults. What children need to hear is that if they are uncomfortable with what one adult does or says, that they must tell a different adult (preferebly someone removed from the situation) exactly what the first adult said or did that bothered them.

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BlackBlade
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This was the first thing that came to my mind:

"Child Pornography is one of the only things that most everyone agrees is completely evil. Yet the numbers of its supporters grow, and it is also as old as many other practices. Do not be suprised if one day, you are told that YOU are evil for shunning it."

I read an article about a year ago at Christmas in the Herald Tribune. It made me sick to my stomach. The article talked about a child who was lured into becoming a child porn star when he was only 6. By the time he was 11 he was professionally pimping himself out online and sometimes meeting men that he did shows for with the aid of his computer camera.

He was making several hundred thousand dollars a year. One day he just couldnt do it anymore and he published his story with the Tribune. Today he works all the time with law enforcement as an advisor, and he still says how shocked he is by how difficult it can be to effectively close down child pornography rings.

Ill see if I can find an entry on him in the wikipedia.

Thx for the article Dag, its horrible to think that many of those children will live with those scars the rest of their lives.

"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

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BlackBlade
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sorry for double posting but I think it was in fact the NYT's that I was reading last Decemeber when I read that article. And it is likely the same article you posted Dag.

Whats the website that gives you login info for things like the NYT's? bothermenot.com?

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Scott R
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Glenn:

Agreed. However, from a father's perspective (and not the child's, sometimes) I AM my child's best friend. There's no one on earth (yet) that cares more about them more than me and my wife. 'Friend' is a clumsy word, I guess; but 'I'll be your most devoted-guardian-of-your-character-and-heart-and-spirit' just wouldn't fit the meter.

quote:
"I'm your best friend" means that the child can talk to the adult about sexual questions that other adults will not.
I want my kids to feel comfortable talking about things like sex with me. I want them to trust me with that, so that I can better influence them to make decisions that are within the bounds of our religion. They're NOT going to get that treatment from schools (nor do I want them to).
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mr_porteiro_head
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bugmenot.com
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Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy
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quote:
Whats the website that gives you login info for things like the NYT's?
http://www.nytimes.com/gst/regi.html
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Glenn Arnold
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Scott,

One of the things I did with my kids when I had "the talk" with them (at one point or another) was to tell them that if any adult, including myself, talks to them in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable, that they should tell another adult about it, and why it made them uncomfortable.

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