posted
Lyrhawn you can actually see the 3 trolls who were turned to stone in LOTR: FOTR, but you probably already knew that. The hobbits walk by them as they are evading the ring wraiths.
Your list pretty much covers it for me, though I am concerned that the spiders in The Hobbit NOT look like smaller versions of Shelob. I'd like for them to be menacing looking, but in their own way. Also I want to see the spiders actually spin the webs that trap the dwarves, the idea of being enprisoned like that was just pressed itself on my mind while I read and I could almost feel myself in the story.
Finding out down the road that Tolkien was very much afraid of spiders is quite illuminating.
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I still disagree that the Maiar and Noldor mentioned as "morally complex" were anything of the kind. Tolkien wrote them as conflicted, yes...but their emotions were almost always inhuman in nature...passions and desires that truly set them apart from the reader.
Frodo, Sam, and even Smeagol though...one could relate to their emotions. Understand them. Get into their heads in a way one couldn't with an immortal elf queen or a catlike flaming eye.
The Maiar and Noldor were always so -above- understanding. Even in the backstory, they're still treated as larger-than-life figures, craving the light of the sacred gems and power on Middle Earth for reasons often much more rareified than what the reader would desire.
There's a reason Gandalf called Feanor's works "unthinkable".
I don't find the deliberately enigmatic, mythic, unknowable conflicts of the immortals to be as convincing or as compelling as what the three halflings went through. Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Yeah I knew that, they added the scene into the Extended Edition, which I thought was some cool foreshadowing for a possible Hobbit movie
As for the spiders, why shouldn't they be mini-Shelobs? I'm almost positive that it's mentioned that the spiders of Mirkwood are the younger daughters of Shelob. They ARE related in some way, shape or form, there should be a resemblence. But, they are also supposed to talk I beleve, so they'll need somewhat personable qualities.
Puffy,
I don't know. Some of the Noldor were downright petty and selfish. Damn I need to reread the Silmarillion before I delve too far into this conversation. But I disagree about the Maiar and Noldor being above understanding. While they are treated as larger than life figures, they still act petty, selfish, and dare I say, human, only on a grander scale.
Did Gandalf say that as Gandalf, or Olorin?
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posted
I think they're scarier as just spiders - normal except for being big. Very big.
And Shelob is called the last descendant of Ungoliant to afflict the world, so I'm not sure how they'd be related.
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He says something like "the unimaginable mind of Feanor at work" as being what he would like to see in the Palantir - and it's something he saw in person as Olorin.
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posted
I'll have to reread all of it, which is a bit of a task, but I'm almost positive that the spiders in the north are related to Shelob, besides Dag, look at the timeline, the spiders of Mirkwood are dead BEFORE Shelob is killed, so wouldn't your statement still be true?
I thought that they didn't remember their lives as Maiar when they were created in the image of man on Middle Earth. Gandalf the White couldn't remember his life as Gandalf the Grey, but both are still Olorin. Either way many of the Maiar are different in Valinor than in Middle Earth.
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quote:Peter Jackson, director of The Lord of the Rings film trilogy, stated in March 2005 that a motion picture version of The Hobbit was being considered, but that it would be at least March 2008 or 2009 before filming would start. [1] Jackson reported being "burned out" from the filming of the trilogy, and wanted to work on other things beyond The Lord of the Rings. Despite his comments, MGM reported on September 11, 2006 that they were going ahead with the production of The Hobbit and it will be released over the next few years. MGM will be making the film in cooperation with New Line Cinema, but Peter Jackson has thus far not signed on to the project. [2] Jackson has responded on AICN that he is surprised that MGM didn't actually approach him, but would nonetheless like to, though he has other projects such as The Lovely Bones to attend to. However, he would certainly like to expand on the original story with the White Council subplot.
quote: PETER JACKSON: Where the guy who runs MGM was announcing their tentpoles and saying they were doing TERMINATOR 4 and they want me to make 2 HOBBIT films? I was reading that this morning on the net. It's a rather strange thing to wake to. I'm up for it, but somebody should phone me because I'm getting a bit booked out at the moment!
Everybody asks me about THE HOBBIT, you know? But the reality is I've never had a conversation with anybody about it. Not one person has ever made a phone call to me. I don't know. The irony is that we're acquiring our own projects now and we're buying the rights to books. The reality is, to be quite honest with you, we're getting ourselves now nice and busy, in a good way, for the next 4 years. So, people have not (spoken to us) about THE HOBBIT and it's making it more and more impossible for us to be involved.
QUINT: So, if you got a phone call tomorrow telling you that you could have any budget you need and creative freedom, but it has to be finished and in theaters by December 2009. Would you find room for THE HOBBIT?
PETER JACKSON: Well, it depends. No one has phoned me, which is kind of weird, but I don't know. We're very, very excited and committed about the films that we're working on now, so I don't know. I'd have to sit down and look at it all. Obviously, I'm interested in THE HOBBIT, but right now we have no emotional investment in it. For the last few years, we have put our hearts into other projects. It would seem strange to have somebody else do it, although some part of me would be interested in going to see somebody else's HOBBIT, be able to buy my popcorn and go and sit and watch the film.
I'm not against that and if our schedule is impossible, then that's what they'll do. They'll certainly go and get someone else to make it. They won't wait, which is their right.
QUINT: Could your lawsuit against New Line be a problem?
PETER JACKSON: No. It's a seperate thing. I mean, I can't discuss the law suit, but it is just about rather dull audit issues, not people or projects. New Line called us about a Lord of the Rings box set a few weeks ago. A high definition one, so we are still talking.
QUINT: Maybe they will offer a settlement that includes The Hobbit.
PETER JACKSON: No. Well, they might, but we would never do that. Never. You make movies because you love the idea. You feel kind of emotionally driven. I would never commit to a 2 or 3 year project because of a court order! I mean, what a jinx. It would bring bad karma. No, our dull audit stuff can get figured out by lawyers or courts or whatever. We'll keep our movies completely untarnished by that.
QUINT: I think no matter what you should write some dialogue for Christopher Lee and pack up the robe, staff and beard and go film about 10 minutes with him playing Saruman again while you still have the chance!
PETER JACKSON: I would love to! If I was doing THE HOBBIT I'd try to get as many of the guys back as I could. I mean, there's actually a role for Legolas in THE HOBBIT, his father features in it, obviously Gandalf and Saruman should be part of it. There's things that you can do with THE HOBBIT to bring in some old friends, for sure. I have thought about it from time to time... Elrond, Galadriel and Arwen could all feature. Elves have lived for centuries. Part of the attraction would be working with old friends. I wouldn't want to do it unless we could keep a continuity of cast. I have zero interest in directing a Gandalf who wasn't Ian McKellen for instance. Strange to be even talking about it, for three years it's been in this rights situation limbo.
QUINT: They must have figured it out.
PETER JACKSON: It looks that way. I've always thought that New Line would go to MGM and offer them some money and basically buy them out, then New Line would make the film. But I can see what MGM is doing. If I was MGM I'd do the same thing. What MGM is gotta be saying is, "Well, we'll partner in the film with you. We'll pay for half of it and you pay for half of it and we'll share it." That's what studios do a lot with these films. If I was MGM, I'd think that was the smart thing to do. "We'll share the rights," and actually become a partner in what is already a successful franchise.
It must create problems for New Line because they have all these output deals with these independent guys, who did a great job releasing LORD OF THE RINGS in all the different (foreign) territories. They release a package of New Line films over 2 or 3 years and they get 20 films or whatever. And I'm sure that New Line would prefer to offer their partners 20 films plus THE HOBBIT as part of the package, so MGM might be taking domestic and New Line international. I really have no idea, but it's interesting to see how the politics works. That stuff intrigues me. They must have figured out something I guess. I mean, there's too much money involved. If I was the Time/Warner board, I would have been hassling New Line for a Hobbit film for the last three years! It's a billion dollar franchise for the studio.
QUINT: And I'm sure they'd love the idea of two HOBBIT films. Twice the box office, more DVDs to sell...
PETER JACKSON: I saw that. Yeah, we're supposed to be writing The Lovely Bones, but of course Phil, Fran and I read the thing on the net and spent most of this morning talking about The Hobbit. We think the two film idea is really smart. One of the problems with The Hobbit is that it is a fairly simple kids story, and doesn't really feel like The Lord of the Rings. Tonally I mean. It's always may be a little worried, but with two films that kinda gets easier. It allows for more complexity. At that implied stuff with Gandalf and the White Council and the return of Sauron could be fully explored.
That's what we talked about this morning. Taking The Hobbit and combining it with all that intigue about Sauron's rise, and the problems that has for Gandalf. It could be cool. That way, it starts feeling more like The Lord of the Rings and less like this kids book. You could even get into Gollum's sneaking into Mordor and Aragorn protecting The Shire. That's what we'd do. Love to work with Viggo again.
Well now. It appears Jackson is more than willing to make room for this movie, but New Line/Sony is pushing for a July 2007 start date for the shooting, which Jackson can't possibly make. He's probably looking for more like a 2008 shoot for a 2009 release date.
Will Sony and New Line wait a year for him? I can't imagine they could even get all the actors together in ten months, not with the number of recurring cast people that would have to come back from the original trilogy.
I have to say, I am VERY intrigued to hear what Jackson's ideas are for expanding on the movie. It sounds like yes, the movie could be told in a single movie, but they are going way beyond the scope of the original book, going IN DEPTH on the White Council and the fight against the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and about Aragorn and the Rangers around the Shire, etc etc all the other goings on at this time in the world. That's a lot of stuff to cover, but, it could be put together rather seamlessly, when you consider The Hobbit takes place over the course of a year, just as Lord of the Rings does. All those little breaks and passages of time, like in Mirkwood, or traveling to Rivendell, and in Thranduil's halls are perfect times to cover other events in Middle Earth, and then they can go back to Bilbo's storyline and continue on as if time had passed.
I'm concerned about it just plain being too much, but I really want to hear his ideas, and I really want to see the White Council.
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quote:At that implied stuff with Gandalf and the White Council and the return of Sauron could be fully explored.
No no no no no no no no!
quote:One of the problems with The Hobbit is that it is a fairly simple kids story
This isn't a problem. It means the book can be made into a movie with fewer compromises. This, unlike LotR, is a simple tale: there and back.
Sure, it sets up a lot of what happens in LotR, but it's a fairy tale meant to entertain and show a single character's development from stay-at-home spoiled rich kid to seasoned adventurer.
Plus, it's got a dragon.
This is not complex, nor does it need to be.
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quote:the spiders of Mirkwood are dead BEFORE Shelob is killed,
I never got the impression they all died.
quote:I thought that they didn't remember their lives as Maiar when they were created in the image of man on Middle Earth. Gandalf the White couldn't remember his life as Gandalf the Grey, but both are still Olorin. Either way many of the Maiar are different in Valinor than in Middle Earth.
There's not a single statement on this, but lots of contradictory notes. In some, they remember their former lives as if it were a dream.
And I think Gandalf remembers his life as the Grey - didn't he tell the story of the Balrog fight, and talk to Theoden and Wormtongue about things that happened before the quest started?
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posted
Yeah I just reread The Hobbit yesterday, and the spiders of Mirkwood didn't ALL die, but, they ARE the descendents of Ungoliant, as is Shelob. I'm actually fairly sure that the spiders in Mirkwood are the offspring of Shelob, but I could be wrong about that. When was the last time you read all the Unfinished Tales, Sil, and Histories? You might've read them all more recently than me. Do you remember where the passage is about Shelob being the last of Ungoliant's descendents? Is that in the Return of the King? The Sil never even mentions how Shelob is killed, well, actually I think it says she eats everything then dies of starvation or eats herself or something, but other accounts hint at Earendil killing her.
And I thought I read a bit in either the Sil or Unfinished Tales that they didn't remember their lives as Maiar, but I think you're right about him remembering his life as the Grey. But I don't think he remembers the whole thing, but rather like you said in a dreamy sort of way.
I'll see if I can find the passage that refers to the spiders of Mirkwood. I'm doing my annual rereading of all the material now.
Oh, and what's wrong with the White Council? My chief complaint would be that it distracts from the story, but I think they could do away with that by using it as a plot device to show the progression of time. Though I have to say, it's a lot cooler to not know where Gandalf went and then have him appear back at Erebor.
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quote: Let's switch gears to The Hobbit. If you signed on to direct it, you'd be working with New Line again, as well as MGM, yet you're still in the process of suing New Line over profit issues on Lord of the Rings. Doesn't that affect your relationship with New Line overall? No no no, I'd love to make another film for New Line. And certainly The Hobbit isn't involved in the lawsuit. Bilbo Baggins doesn't work for the accounting department of New Line, and I certainly don't hold him to blame for any of our disputes.
Did you actually do any preproduction for a potential Hobbit film during LOTR, or would you have to start nearly from scratch? There would be a reasonable amount [still] to do. There are a couple of locations in The Hobbit that are shared with Lord of the Rings. Hobbiton and Bilbo Baggins' house obviously appear, and Rivendell, where the elves were in Fellowship of the Ring, also plays a part. We've still kept the miniatures of Rivendell in storage, and the set of Bag End, Bilbo Baggins' house, has also been saved.
The larger version of the Bag End set — the one big enough to make Elijah Wood look hobbit-size — is on your own property now, isn't it? Oh yeah, it's great. It's the guest house. I guess if we needed it for the movie, we could just go and film in it and it'd be fine.
The rest of the interview seems to be mostly rehashed questions and answers from the Ain't It Cool interview of my previous update. But for all those who think The Lovely Bones, and other movies might be getting in the way:
quote: So how could he do it? Whether with an eye to a possible Hobbit project or not, Jackson has organized his projects in a remarkably flexible way. Halo (to be distributed by Universal in North America and Twentieth Century Fox abroad) and The Dam Busters (co-financed by Universal and StudioCanal) are being directed by others, and an executive producer doesn’t necessarily have to do a whole lot of hands-on work. As Jackson pointed out to his EW interviewer, Steve Daly, “That’s one of the reasons we’re producing a number of things now rather than directing. Producing is fun and it’s not as all-consuming.”
As to the “Temeraire” series, that is a long-range project that Jackson speaks of putting into pre-production when Halo and The Lovely Bones are substantially finished. He’s not sure yet whether he’ll direct the resulting film or films. The Lovely Bones is not all that far advanced, either, with Jackson, Walsh, and co-writer Philippa Boyens having only recently finished a first draft of the script. The rights for both of these projects are owned entirely by Jackson and Walsh, with no studio yet attached—which means they have no deadline. In another remark that sounds calculated to encourage MGM and New Line, in the same interview Jackson remarks, “We’re not imposing any deadline on ourselves with all these projects. They’ll take as long as they need to until we’re happy with them.” It sounds a lot like he’s hinting that they could also be put off if another attractive project comes along.
Jackson is making his own schedule at the moment. Half the movies he's working on, he has really very little time consuming hands on involvement with. Lovely Bones is something he's only just finished a draft on, and Temeraire he only just optioned, let alone actually worked on. In other words, Jackson is as free as he wants to be. If MGM and New Line get on the horn fast enough with a real deal, Jackson might be persuaded to shunt all that stuff aside for a year to make The Hobbit.
I'm starting to come around a bit though to Dag's side of things, being nervous about the expansions he wants to make to the project. Entertainment Weekly said flat out (though not QUOTING him), that Jackson was interested in "making up" stuff to fill in the gaps left by The Hobbit as to what was going on behind the scenes. Now, if you read all of Tolkien, what happens behind the scenes is fairly well accounted for. Gandalf meets with the White Council, they choose a leader, there's some Eldar/Maiar politics at work, they plan and plot, scout out and then knock out Sauron in Dol Goldur, and then Gandalf comes back to Lonely Mountain.
Now I can easily make my peace with him expanding the scope of the story to cover these events, since he'll already be expanding the scope quite a bit I'd gather, especially if he wants to make two movies (which again, there IS a wealth of information that he can use and not make up to enhance the enrich the story). But I would emphatically draw the line at anything not written by Tolkien being made up just to make the story longer. I was angry enough at changing plot elements in LOTR, but was forgiving for the sake of making a workable trilogy. He has enough material to make a single movie, making crap up for a second one would greatly annoy me.
I'll keep updating as I flesh out more details.
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