posted
My God. Every time I think humanity just can't make me sicker, someone does.
quote: "It's obvious to us that this was a premeditated hostage scenario," Miller said. "I believe, based on what the investigators have so far, he intended not to walk out of there alive, but he also intended to kill innocent victims."
quote:Miller said that it appears that Roberts was intent on getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago, and it involved young females. All of the deceased, except for the shooter, were females.
When he was 12?
What could a 12-year-old girl possibly do to you that sticks with you until you're in your early thirties? This is absurd.
quote:Miller said that it appears that Roberts was intent on getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago, and it involved young females.
Yes, i'm really sure justice has now been served. Did a small group of Amish schoolgirls from the year 2006 time travel back to the 80s and torment him as a boy, because otherwise i'm a little miffed at how this was revenge for anything. Sickening.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Miller said that it appears that Roberts was intent on getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago, and it involved young females.
Yes, i'm really sure justice has now been served. Did a small group of Amish schoolgirls from the year 2006 time travel back to the 80s and torment him as a boy, because otherwise i'm a little miffed at how this was revenge for anything. Sickening.
Somehow, I don't think that logic or reason had much to do with this.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I'm shocked. My mom is from Lancaster County, PA. Growing up, we would visit our grandparents in Elizabethtown (not that far away) and would often encounter many Amish during our day-to-day activities. I was able to develop a very strong respect for them as a group of people devoted to living out their lives in a simple and God-fearing manner. They aren't an oddity to be mocked, or a tourist attraction to be stared at, but good people. Of course they have their own set of problems, and Amish life isn't all rosy. But they still earn a great deal of my respect.
What this has to do with the event today, I don't know. It's just the first feelings I had after the initial shock of the incident passed and I'm using this as a place to get them down.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
... My roomate just turned on the news and heard about this. His reaction was "Wow. That's great. That's just ... wow. Cool. I respect that man."
Not sure what to say that wouldn't get me a warning from Papa J. Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
No, I don't suppose so. He said "It may make me a bad person, but that's ok." And then he did this amused sort of laugh. It was repulsive. We need a vomit emoticon on here.
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posted
He doesn't always show the most sensitivity in the world, but usually he's not so blatantly ...wrong. I guess you could say I've never wanted to punch the living crud out of him before. So it's isolated. But it really lowers my opinion of him nonetheless.
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posted
I am so sickened and horrified by this. Those poor little girls. I feel just miserable knowing this kind of thing still goes on in this world.
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quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: No, I don't suppose so. He said "It may make me a bad person, but that's ok." And then he did this amused sort of laugh. It was repulsive. We need a vomit emoticon on here.
WHY ON EARTH would that be "cool?" Because it was a religious school? I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but even if you HATE the Amish, there is nothing remotely cool about this jackass murdering little girls because he's an effing coward.
posted
Brian, I still have family in Elizabeth town, though I grew up closer to State College (Lewistown). Maybe that's why this has hit me harder than the other school shootings. And a big "yeah,that" to Libbie.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
All the school shootings lately have me worried. From what I read, it doesn't sound like an abnormal amount statistically. But it does seem that everytime I turn on the news, they're talking about a new school.
Its starting to make me paranoid. A few weeks ago, a bunch of signs appeared all over campus that read "Do you deserve to live?" and the date 10/11/2006. We're not a big school and this is the first time in my three years that I've heard of a "prank" like this. I tempted to ask my professor to skip class that day.
Any other time I wouldn't worry about it, but it seems like the whole country has gone crazy.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
whats wrogn with the Amish what did they ever do to deserve this? I have nothing but the highest respect for the Amish.
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quote:Originally posted by romanylass: Brian, I still have family in Elizabeth town, though I grew up closer to State College (Lewistown). Maybe that's why this has hit me harder than the other school shootings. And a big "yeah,that" to Libbie.
Yeah, I still have family in that area too, and visit it often, so this feels closer to home than the other shootings. I also have such a hard time reconciling the events with the peaceful world of the Amish. I'm sure an event like this has shattered their community. How horrible.
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posted
The peaceful, fairytale-like world of the Amish is greatly exaggerated by people who only observe from without.
In Amish society, rape and incest are rampant. Woman are treated as second class citizens. Children die of strep throat and other childhood illnesses because parents do not believe in vaccinations or antibiotics.
None of this means they deserve to be picked on or killed, but try to show the same righteous indignation when ANYONE gets murdered, not just a group of people that are portrayed as being simple and kind-hearted saints, when in fact, they are just like everyone else.
Posts: 340 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I tried to post this earlier but it didn't go through.
Several years ago in Indiana there was an outbreak of anthrax "threats" they weren't really harmful, but they were a disruption. The first one was in a bank, and it actually was Anthrax powder, the rest were in schools and were powdered asprin or talc or something. After so many the news stations agreed to stop covering them, and there was only one more after that. I'm not sure this is the best idea for the school shooting thing, but it might be effective.
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quote:Originally posted by Gecko: The peaceful, fairytale-like world of the Amish is greatly exaggerated by people who only observe from without.
In Amish society, rape and incest are rampant. Woman are treated as second class citizens. Children die of strep throat and other childhood illnesses because parents do not believe in vaccinations or antibiotics.
None of this means they deserve to be picked on or killed, but try to show the same righteous indignation when ANYONE gets murdered, not just a group of people that are portrayed as being simple and kind-hearted saints, when in fact, they are just like everyone else.
I referenced these problems, though not the specifics, in my earlier post. I am extremely aware of their existence, but it still doesn't negate the respect I have for the Amish. Every society has it's problems, the Amish not excluded. But it seems that these violent deaths would be taken particularly hard by a very insulated community such as the Amish, so I pointed that out.
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posted
I second Gecko. I'm actually concerned what this might do to the Amish community as a whole -- the last thing they need is to further demonize outsiders. It's hard enough for women to escape that world without justification of Amish xenophobia.
This is horrible, but their religious affiliation doesn't make their deaths any more or less sancrosanct. I do worry about the Amish backlash, though. Will they restrict women's education even further?
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quote:Originally posted by Gecko: The peaceful, fairytale-like world of the Amish is greatly exaggerated by people who only observe from without.
In Amish society, rape and incest are rampant. Woman are treated as second class citizens. Children die of strep throat and other childhood illnesses because parents do not believe in vaccinations or antibiotics.
None of this means they deserve to be picked on or killed, but try to show the same righteous indignation when ANYONE gets murdered, not just a group of people that are portrayed as being simple and kind-hearted saints, when in fact, they are just like everyone else.
I agree with you. The thing that makes it more horrifying for me is the execution style manner of the killings.
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posted
I cannot understand WHY people can't find anything better to do then to shoot people for no reason than their sick stupid minds. I'm just sick of people doing things like this... especially when it involves little children.
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quote:In Amish society, rape and incest are rampant
There is no evidence that such abuse is more frequent among the Amish than in the general population.
quote:I do worry about the Amish backlash, though. Will they restrict women's education even further?
I don't think that this worry is realistic. Your statement implies that "women's education" is somehow more restricted than men's, when in fact formal education for both girls and boys is the same; it stops after eighth grade, after which children go on to learn skills from their parents or other adults. I don't see this changing just because of this incident.
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posted
Were you disturbed by the way the Amish were compassionate towards the family of the murderer too?
I feel that, whether he was driven by evil or madness, the way the Amish treated the family of the man is definitely worthy of emulation. They were victims too, in a sense.
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posted
Oh man, that was a scary bump. For a second there, I thought that there had been a copycat incident.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
This reminds me of early quakers in America. If somebody stole form their crops they would plant a new field, cultivate it, purely so the theif would then have no motive to steal from them again.
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posted
To forgive is not the same as to condone. It is possible to be horrified without hating.
When we allow hate to make us hate we only bring more wrong into being. We perpetuate the wrong and don't change the hearts of the wrongdoers. On the other hand, how much good has come from the Amish community's forgiveness and compassion for the killer's family? And they themselves are free of the burden of hating, of becoming people who hate.
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posted
My link was dealing with the Amish's compassion towards the family, Rivka. Do you disagree with that?
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While I certainly believe that had Roberts lived he should face the death penalty, hating him doesn't do anyone any good at all.
Hating his behavior-- and resolutely looking for ways to stop it-- that's fine. That's worthy, I think.
IMO, and perhaps opposed to the worldview of the Amish, it's even okay to be angry with this situation. Anger can serve people to do Good things, I think.
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EDIT: Speaking here of personal forgiveness, not societal, or social, or cultural, or legal forgiveness.
Rivka, in this situation, how could the Amish have reacted 'better,' in your opinion? How could they have better pleased God?
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posted
They have the same right to forgive that they have to judge. The same right to refrain from hating as to hate.
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It's not clear to me exactly what each person is forgiving him for.
Is it for killing the other people? Or the harm that killing did to each person doing the forgiving.
In other words, is person X forgiving the guy for everything he did, or just for hurting person X?
If the latter, it's the same power any wronged person has. Has anyone seen anything that they intend the forgiveness to be for every aspect of the day?
The Lord's Prayer includes the words "as we forgive those who trespass against us." If they are following that instruction, then I'm not sure what the problem is.
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I don't understand the question. Who'd give them the right to hate him? Since when is the ability to forgive a privilege?
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posted
*frustrated* Did any of y'all read the article I linked to? Because I thought he did an excellent job of answering all the questions that have been posed to me.
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posted
rivka, the article said, "But to forgive those who have hurt—who have murdered—someone else?" My questions directly relate to whether or not they are forgiving him for the harm done to someone else.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Could be that we are using the word "forgive" in different ways. There is the "forgive" as in "forgive a debt" - as in erase. Whether or not one has the right, no one has the power to erase what was done.
I think, generally, we (and the article) are using the word in the sense of loving rather than hating someone who has wronged you, deciding to return good for ill, not wanting revenge and so forth.
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posted
Yes, I read the article, and had the same response I have to almost everything Jeff Jacoby writes: he's well-meaning, and his premises are utterly wrong. I don't agree that he answered any of the above, other than asserting that "hating bad people is good." Which I don't buy.
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And as probably one of the few members of this forum who have had a close family member murdered, I think I can see both viewpoints.
Hatred and anger can tear a person up inside. The person feeling it. So why the anger might be justified, it isn't healthy or good.
I think the Amish do feel what he did was very evil, but they recognize that holding on to any kind of anger or hate inside themselves is not a good thing.
Understand that it might actually have been a little harder, even for them, if the killer had lived. But he's gone now - it's past, and they are trusting God to avenge for them, if necessary. There is nothing they can do to change what happened, and so feeling anger and hatred inside themselves will not help.
That does not mean they don't recognize it as evil, or hate the evil or the act. Just that they forgive within themselves so they can go forward with their lives.
That's my assumption anyway.
I admire them if they are truly able to do it so soon. I will admit to not being able to get to that point for several years after my situation. But it was me not letting go of it, not anything external. Perhaps it would have been easier for me, as well, if the killer had died so I wouldn't have felt it was unfair that he was alive.
I don't think they are saying they "forgive his sin" -- obviously only God can do that. They are saying they are forgiving his action within themselves, and turning it over to God.
At least, that is my assumption.
FG
(edit: wow - four other posts while I was writing that)
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
The problem that I had with the article that you linked to is that it focused entirely on the murderer.
From the article:
quote:I admire the Amish villagers’ resolve to live up to their Christian ideals even amid heartbreak, but how many of us would really want to live in a society in which no one gets angry when children are slaughtered?
Like I said-- I think anger is understandable. Hatred is, too, but hatred is never useful. Anger can be.
quote:I cannot see how the world is made a better place by assuring someone who would do terrible things to others that he will be readily forgiven afterward, even if he shows no remorse.
I don't think social forgiveness (if Roberts had lived) would be responsible. PERSONAL forgiveness-- well, that's another thing entirely. I think Christians, and especially Mormons (due to some scriptures in D&C), are commanded to forgive, no matter what the sin against us.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I agree that hatred is not useful, and anger only sometimes is. But deciding not to hold onto hatred or anger is not the same as forgiving someone.
As far as having (and showing) compasion for the murderers family members, I have no problem with that either, except to the degree that it involves assuring them that you forgive the murderer.
Beyond that, I'm beginning to think this is a separated-by-the-same-language issue. I don't particularly plan to post in this thread again, and am sorry that I did.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: But deciding not to hold onto hatred or anger is not the same as forgiving someone. [/QB]
I disagree completely. I believe that is exactly what forgiveness is on a personal level.
I know rivka said she wouldn't be posting again in this thread, but I'd be interested to know what her definition of forgiveness would entail.
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