ketchupqueen -- you might want to e-mail katharina directly. It sounds like it might be a touchy subject and really, there aren't that many people here who could even venture a guess on that score.
My opinion of it is that the group must've violated some BSA rule and probably should have been in discussions with the parent organization over it...
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Forbidding private organizations from using public property would mean there can be no private organizations. At least, they can't go anywhere, since the roads and the airports are public property. They can't do any legal transactions, since courthouses are public property. The government takes the position (not as well defined) that the airwaves are public property, so this not only puts an end to religious broadcasting, it puts an end to all radio and broadcast TV except NPR and PBS.
If we want more freedom, we won't try to ban private activity in public space. This is something people do selectively to take freedom away from others.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I'm pretty sure people are referring to exclusive use of controlled-access public places.
For example, a classroom reserved by a group is barred to non-members of the group during the time it is in use. Further, no one is allowed in that classroom without permission, whether implied or explicit.
Contrast this to a park, where an individual can come and go as one sees fits during the hours the park is open. No group can exclude others (legally).
Sometimes parks are set aside for exclusive use. This would generally require a permit, fee, and/or reservation. Absent one of those, it is a non-controlled access public place.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:My brother belonged to a public school Cub Scout pack. If the boys did not believe in God or otherwise did not want to reference God in oaths, etc., they were allowed to just omit the reference to God, like we were allowed to do with the Pledge of Alleigance.
Does that mean that the pack could have gotten in trouble for that? 'Cause they didn't.
When I was a child my troop allowed me to do that, but it was before 1985. Even for a while into the '90s I think national still said that if atheists wanted to join all they had to do was sign the drp. Now, though, they have started to require questions during boards of review that force scouts to admit their state of belief, or lie. My son was quite worried about this during his Eagle Scout board of review, although he was not calling himself an atheist at the time, his actual beliefs could have raised red flags. That was a few years ago. I don't know how much more stringent they have become, but I'm also sure there are plenty of troops that are quietly defiant.
A few years ago there were troops and entire districts that informed National that they were allowing gays and atheists as members, but they were told they'd lose their membership if they didn't retract the policy. Some troops folded, or joined Scouting for All, but I think all the districts capitulated when the supreme court ruling came through.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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In such a case, banning BSA from school grounds would indeed be like banning private groups from reserving the park shelters. And, of course, evicting 4H and the Chess Club from school grounds; and the Wesleyan Center and the Newman Club from state college campuses.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Public schools USED to be the Boy Scouts' largest chartering partner; they no longer are.
Early in 2005, the ACLU sent a letter to the BSA about the legal problems with public schools and other government entities chartering Packs & Troops; the BSA agreed to re-charter all such units, and to not issue such charters in the future: http://www.aclu-il.org/news/press/2005/03/national_boy_scout_organizatio.shtml The BSA has rechartered most of these (though a few hundred still remain).
Plus, a correction - Scouting For All is not a scouting program, it's an advocacy organization that's trying to convince the BSA to change its membership policies.
Disclaimer: I'm the assistant director, midwest region, of Scouting For All, and I worked with the Illinois ACLU on the issue of public school BSA charters.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Are there figures for scout membership from previous years for comparison? Seems like I remember one of BSA's arguments for keeping atheists out was that if they let us godless heathens in they would have a decline in membership.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Television, two-career families, suburban sprawl, generational changes in values--these and other changes in American society have meant that fewer and fewer of us find that the League of Women Voters, or the United Way, or the Shriners, or the monthly bridge club, or even a Sunday picnic with friends fits the way we have come to live. Our growing social-capital deficit threatens educational performance, safe neighborhoods, equitable tax collection, democratic responsiveness, everyday honesty, and even our health and happiness.
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No, bsa-discrimination.org is not a "crappy site"; as you say, the numbers are correct, and other similar groups (notably the Girl Scouts) have not experienced a similar decline. The BSA's dramatic membership slide coincides with their very public expulsion of gays and atheists.
You can also search the web and find a lot of people, including former BSA members, who have walked away from the BSA for their stance against gay and atheist scouts, and who will not allow their boys to join. The BSA's membership drop isn't just a general drop in participation in social clubs -- it has a lot to do with their new public perception as a private, discriminatory, religious organization. Their membership figures are reasonably flat from 1991 to 2000 (the year of Dale vs. BSA), then they fall sharply.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Oct 2006
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I have a few thoughts....keep in mind that I was a Life scout (one step before Eagle), and am currently a Mason. I don't claim special knowledge of either, other than my personal experiences, though.
Masons ARE a religious group, although not a religion. You HAVE to believe in God in order to become a Mason, and to stay one.
What God you believe in doesn't matter to them at all. Islam, Christian, Hindu...there are Masonic chapters that follow each religion, and many others of course, but we all all Masonic Brothers regardless of specific religion.
As far as I know, Scouting is like that as well. You don't have to belong to any specific religion, but you do have to believe in God. I know that from 1979 to 1986 I was involved in several phases of Scouting, and once I got to Boy Scouts they did as me about my religious beliefs. God was mentioned at almost every dinner when we had a formal grace, and when camping we usually had a silent moment for prayer.
The BSA defined itself as a religious organization for it's argument before SCOTUS, and that is part of why it won, so I think it IS fair to use that definition to argue points both for and against Scouting.
I know that in our area, if a group chartered an organization they didn't use public monies to do so. We were chartered by the local Fire Station, but the firefighters themselves paid the $150 we got from their own pockets, and they had fund raisers for us on occasion for camping equipment...but no public monies went to us at all.
I would encourage public schools to allow the use of their facilities for Scouting, as long as the Scouts paid the same fees as any other group renting the space.
quote:Hey Glenn, I'm still in rec.scouting.issues too...
I knew you through alt.atheism, although I guess most of the posts were heavily crossposted.
quote:You don't have to belong to any specific religion, but you do have to believe in God.
Even weirder, the BSA doesn't allow themselves to be cornered into any specific definition of God, which pretty much makes their stance meaningless to begin with. As one BSA leader said, "You can believe that cheese is God."
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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That is pretty much what I remembered too....and to be honest,the Masons are a little like that as well.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Even weirder, the BSA doesn't allow themselves to be cornered into any specific definition of God, which pretty much makes their stance meaningless to begin with. As one BSA leader said, "You can believe that cheese is God."
This is what makes BSA claim that promoting belief in God is central to their mission so strange. If they are willing to accept people with every flavor of religious belief, pagans, christians, hindu's and even scientologists -- why would it be so detrimental to their program if they allowed athiests to join?
To me, it makes no sense.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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When I was still in scouting, my explanation for why I was willing to sign the DRP was that to me:
"God is a concept that other people believe in. Those believers associate this concept with certain basic moral principles that I agree with."
Without attempting to define all those moral principles, I can say that as a general rule I strongly agree with the values inherent in the scouting program.
Since I believe that the concept of God exists, and since I agree with those certain moral principles, I have no problem signing the DRP.
If the scouts would accept my definition of God, I would still be in scouting, but at this point, they've made it clear that my definition isn't adequate, if for no other reason but that I call myself an atheist.
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