posted
I would like to know more about Catholic concepts of heaven. Specific official doctrine would be interesting, but what I'm mostly looking for is a response to the question "What do you think Heaven will be like?" from any Catholics on Hatrack. (I.E. if you ended up in Heaven, what would you speculate that might entail. Pearly gates? St. Peter? White robes? Halos and wings? Which of these is mythos and what do you think the reality might be.) If you can point to any doctrine that supports or influences your answers that would be appreciated too.
I want to make it clear that this is NOT a call to open a debate about anything anyone chooses to share. While questions for clarification are welcome from anyone, loaded questions or criticisms of the validity of anyone's beliefs in this thread will probably result in the entire thread being deleted. (So if you post something you really really want to keep, make a copy. I'm just sayin').
Alternatively, if you fill you fit the bill to respond to my call, yet don't feel comfortable posting here, please, please email me at the address in my profile.
This is a request for my own edification and insight into the mindset of individuals either brought up in or later drawn to Catholicism. I'm formulating a Catholic character in a story and I want to create her realistically and respectfully. Any help would be appreciated.
posted
As I understand it, Heaven is shorthand for being in communion, in sync, with God. Not so much a place as a state of being. I imagine it very much like I imagine the Kingdom of Heaven. ("Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.) Eternity is not the same as "the future forever". It is not just infinitly long linear time; it is outside of linear time. Eternal life is not the same as after life. To the extent and on the occasions when we "get it" during this mortal, incarnate life, we glimpse, participate, connect with eternal life. I believe that when we are no longer incarnate, we will really "get it". Sort of an "ah, of course, that's what you mean", kind of thing. When we get it, we will know how to love each other, how to be just, how to really have peace, how to show mercy.
Hell is, of course, the opposite. Separation from the Divine. It is not something which is inflicted on us; it is something that we are free to choose in this life and in eternal life.
Catholic doctrine includes the "resurrection of the body". I really don't know how that works. Presumably, we are given a new incorruptible body like Jesus's body after the resurrection. How much it looks/feels/tastes etc like the bodies we have now - I dunno. I would like mine to be thinner, please - not too thin, though...
Honestly, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what will happen when I die and I am not a very "traditional" Catholic, so I'm not sure how much this helps. It isn't just stuff I made up, though; the priests and theologians I know would "approve this message". Possible more conservative ones wouldn't.
There are a lot of more traditional/conservative Catholic "answer web sites. Depending on how traditional you want your character to be.
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posted
I'm RC too (once Protestant, still think like a Protestant mostly), and what I say to kmbboots's reply is "yea all that."
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posted
Having spent 4 years in a Catholic high school, I would have thought I might at least be able to give a small answer. But even in my sophmore religion class which was all about Catholicism, I don't remember the teacher mentioning heaven at all.
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posted
Kate, I'd appreciate links to the sites you mentioned. I also appreciate your answer.
As follow up, what do you think will happen to you in a state of Heaven? Do you think it is a result of final acheivement in mortality, or do you think it is a place where you will progress to the ultimate acheivement of being in sync with God? Or I supposed one could believe it is a gift of being in sync which is simply granted upon death, (i.e. you get withing a certain target range and God gives you the free upgrade, so to speak) but if so what do you believe are the requirements (if any) to earn such a gift?
Do you have any firm or working concept of what being in-sync with God really means? Can you explain?
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posted
My view of heaven is much more colored by C.S. Lewis than by Catholic dogma, which is very unspecific but basically leaves it at Paul's view of being in some type of mystical union with God that is the spiritual equivalent of sexual intimacy between a man and wife... off topic, that is probably a lot of the reason for the majority of the Catholic hangup about sexuality-- it's supposed to be a sacred representation of the union with God-- our taste of things to come, if you will.
But if you want particulars on my view of heaven, Perelandra, The Last Battle (from Narnia), and to a certain extent, The Great Divorce cover a lot of it.
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I think more "place where you will progress..." but with the advantage of the new insight gained from no longer being mortal.
My working concept is the gospels. Love wants us to love one another. The details of that are trickier, but we are still given a plan. Whoever wants to be first, must be a servant... Whatsoever you have done unto the least of these... How does a loving, just God want us to behave toward each other? You know this stuff as well as I do.
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posted
A good authoritative and influential source would be Dante's Divine Comedy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy ), although I admit like others...I only read through Inferno.
Its a lot more lurid and "traditional" (for lack of a better word) than kmboots depiction though.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: A good authoritative and influential source would be Dante's Divine Comedy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy ), although I admit like others...I only read through Inferno.
A lot of people, including myself, seem to have *only* read Inferno. I guess it's just because that's the cool section of the book, and the rest of the sections are too much "bubble gum and balloons" to be as enjoyable.
That or we're twisted and evil, and only read Inferno so we know what to expect in the end.
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posted
The Inferno is great - also fiction. And I assume that for Heaven you would want to read Paradiso rather than Inferno. And then it would be helpful if your character lived in the 14th century. And was a literate woman in the 14th century...
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posted
Still, there's very little doubt that Dante has shaped a lot of the modern concepts of both heaveen and hell... as has Milton.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: The Inferno is great - also fiction. And I assume that for Heaven you would want to read Paradiso rather than Inferno. And then it would be helpful if your character lived in the 14th century. And was a literate woman in the 14th century...
Exactly. I'm looking for a laymans views as they would be influenced by their understanding of contemporary Catholicism. I'm not as interested in official Catholic dogma* without the human filter.
(*I hope that's not viewed as a derrogatory word, it isn't meant to be)
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Tell me a little more about your character? There are probably as many ideas about heaven as there are Catholics. Does she think about this stuff critically? Does she have some training? Did she get her ideas from her grandmother who was raised in the old country?
I've given you one (mine) viewpoint from a liberal, fortyish, single, female, Catholic who has spent some time both studying and teaching doctrine. Many of the Catholics that I spend time with talking about Catholic stuff would basically agree. But there are a lot of Catholics with different views - some that they've though seriously about, some that they've been taught, some that they've inherited - usually some mix of the above.
One of my great-aunts had a "cruise ship" idea of heaven. Irish Catholics in first class, other Catholics in second class, other Christians in third class, everybody else in fourth class etc. People in the upper classes could go visit the other decks so people could visit each other. And because she was a sweet lady, everone was happy and nobody knew that they weren't in first class.
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There are a ton of web sites. Too many to sift through. Just google "catholic heaven" or "Catholic question heaven" and catholic anser sites by different groups - with different slants- will pop up.
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posted
Your character will probably have the same jumble of images in her head that the rest of us do, informed by the pearly gates image as shown in cartoons, C. S. Lewis, the idea of Paradise (jungle, fruit), white robes. If she's thoughtful, she won't have any more faith in those images than I do in my image of an atom looking like a clump of balls with electrons in orbit around it.
So: what else is true about her? If she's thought about this issue, she might have other images. I'm all for well-developed characters.
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posted
Karl, the specifics might depend a lot more on ethnicity. There are significant differences in popular Catholic conceptions of things like Heaven that differ (in a general way) between Irish, Polish, Italian, and other Catholics. And I can't remember any of them right now, so that's not particularly helpful.
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posted
That's a good point, Dag. My character is Brazilian. Will's point about how much she would have thought about these things is a good point too. I'm not sure, but I'm not planning on making her devoutly religious, and for that matter I don't have to make her Catholic, though that's a really safe choice for Brazil. But there are many protestant movements in Brazil so I could go with something I know better.
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South American Catholicism is usually considerably more conservative that North American or European.
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I'll buy that. Any insight into what that might mean in regards to the question at hand? What's a "conservative" Catholic view of heaven?
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I don't really know much about Brazilian culture. Latin America is fairly strict about sexual morality and pretty far to the left politically. Liberation theology, preferential option for the poor. The communion of saint would likely be a big focus. Lots of attention paid to dead relatives, etc. still be part of their lives, etc. I would speculate that heaven would include the folks who have passed being concerned with the lives of those who are still alive. Being still connected to family, home in some way.
Wild speculation here.
edit to add: I would guess that many concepts of heaven would concentrate on "fixing" what is wrong with this life. "In heaven, no one is hungry" for someone who has gone hungry. "Someone to love me" for someone who is lonely. "Things will be fair", for those who have suffered unjustice.
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quote:posted by kmbboots: As I understand it, Heaven is shorthand for being in communion, in sync, with God. Not so much a place as a state of being. I imagine it very much like I imagine the Kingdom of Heaven.
...
Hell is, of course, the opposite. Separation from the Divine. It is not something which is inflicted on us; it is something that we are free to choose in this life and in eternal life.
As an atheist, I find this interesting. To me, this implies a sort of objective valuelessness in the heaven/hell concept. That is, despite the connotations heaven and hell bear, the question of which is better could only be answered on an individual basis.
Assuming I'm wrong about the whole God thing, I could still see myself as acknowledging His existence while not wishing to be "in sync" with Him, for a variety of reasons. While I might feel some sort of loss in the separation from the divine, I think I would feel more content in knowing I was living by principles that I had decided were best.
It's obvious which you prefer, but I'm curious to know if you think, according to your definition, heaven is necessarily better than hell.
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It might be interesting if her images are formed idiosyncratically. Her grandmother always had a calendar with images of saints on it, so she pictures herself hobnobbing with her favorite saints in heaven. She once had a very powerful dream about heaven looking like the set of West Wing. Or something.
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quote:posted by kmbboots: As I understand it, Heaven is shorthand for being in communion, in sync, with God. Not so much a place as a state of being. I imagine it very much like I imagine the Kingdom of Heaven.
...
Hell is, of course, the opposite. Separation from the Divine. It is not something which is inflicted on us; it is something that we are free to choose in this life and in eternal life.
As an atheist, I find this interesting. To me, this implies a sort of objective valuelessness in the heaven/hell concept. That is, despite the connotations heaven and hell bear, the question of which is better could only be answered on an individual basis.
Assuming I'm wrong about the whole God thing, I could still see myself as acknowledging His existence while not wishing to be "in sync" with Him, for a variety of reasons. While I might feel some sort of loss in the separation from the divine, I think I would feel more content in knowing I was living by principles that I had decided were best.
It's obvious which you prefer, but I'm curious to know if you think, according to your definition, heaven is necessarily better than hell.
My understanding of God (limited as it necessarily is) includes such concepts as creativity, love, etc. and is a part of each of us. We can shut that part of ourselves off or shut ourselves off from that part of others. hence, hell on earth. I imagine that, even with the new insight received as we die, we could still choose this.
Again, "God" is not just a being.
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posted
Karl, I have to question whether you're really asking a valid question. In my experience with Catholics from many different locales and with many different orientations (conservative, liberal...) everyone has their own view of heaven. And even if you were trying to stick to Dogma (which it doesn't sound like you are) there isn't a clear statement from the church on what heaven is like...
Each individual is going to have their own idea as to what heaven might be, sometimes shaded by Revalations, sometimes by Dante, sometimes by their exposure to other religions...
Much as it can partly be seen as contradictory, I personally think there's a good chance heaven is closer to Nirvana than anything else. But I'd also not be entirely suprised if it were manifested with St. Peter standing at the pearly gates, or seraphim and cherubim who's description would scare most children, or an eternal buffet table sitting on the clouds, or whatever else might float my boat. But like I said, personally (as a Catholic) I think it's more likely a nebulous happiness (or lack of unhappiness) of being in the presence of the divine, something that probably can't be described in any real sense.
Now, if you want to get more into what you have to do to attain heaven, then there's more of a concrete discussion that could be had.
As for your character, if you want concrete examples then heaven could be the perfect expression of whatever they love doing (eating, rock climbing, reading, watching movies, swimming...)
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posted
I'm not sure how my question is invalid. I'm asking Catholics to tell me what they speculate Heaven is like and to the degree that they can, tell me how that speculation is fueled by their Catholic beliefs.
quote:Now, if you want to get more into what you have to do to attain heaven, then there's more of a concrete discussion that could be had.
Well, aside from that very question as a follow-up to Kate's description of Heaven, it's not really the discussion I'm looking for in this particular thread, (though it would be a very interesting one in it's own right elsewhere).
I also don't really want this to turn into suggestions on what my character might believe or what heaven might turn out to be like assuming my character ends up there. Speculation on what others might believe isn't nearly as useful to me at the moment as sincere first person expressions of what a real life person really believes.
In other words, do you believe heaven will be the concrete expression of whatever you love doing? If so, will it be a constant, or change according to what you most want to be doing at any given moment?
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I don't think Catholics have a particularly different view of heaven (as a whole) than any other Christian religion, especially since there is no real doctrine on what exactly it will be. the closest you really get from kmbboots' catechism link is: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him"
Like others have said, there may be some things generally in common based on nationality and community, but from my experience everyone's views of heaven (be they Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Anglican etc...) are as varied as the colors of the rainbow. so when you ask "what is the Catholic concept of heaven" I can only point you at the very nebulous description of being in perfect union with Christ (whatever that happens to mean)
As for me, I already stated it to a certain extent, but my best guess is that heaven will be some sort of amorphous existence in pure joy that can in no way be described in terms of human understanding.
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: Exactly. I'm looking for a laymans views as they would be influenced by their understanding of contemporary Catholicism. I'm not as interested in official Catholic dogma* without the human filter.
(*I hope that's not viewed as a derrogatory word, it isn't meant to be)
As a side note, it would be rather ironic to view Dante's writings as official Catholic dogma since he was at the time rather opposed to official Catholic policy, as evidenced by his "sentencing" of a Pope or two to the Inferno. He also ended up being exiled for his secular views of the papacy.
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posted
After reading the posts thus far, I don't have that much of significance to add. Like kmbboots, I believe that heaven is a future that includes communion with God. What will that be like? I don't tend to think of myself as wandering around heaven, playing golf, reading books. I think of it more as forever resting in God's love. Of course, I know absolutely nothing.
Hell would then be complete disconnection from God.
I don't know that my post has much relevance at all since I am a young, moderate-to-liberal, American Catholic nun, but I wanted to throw my opinion in the ring. Kat
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quote:I don't know that my post has much relevance at all since I am a young, moderate-to-liberal, American Catholic nun, but I wanted to throw my opinion in the ring.
Your post has perfect relevance. As a nun, you are presumably very aware of your church's teachings, so you are exactly the kind of person I wanted to respond. It's not so important that I get any grand revelations of Heaven. I just wanted to know to what degree a dogma I only know in a cursory way might create a different concept of "the afterlife" in the minds of those who are steeped in it.
If this thread and the private responses I've gotten via email are any indication, it's safe to say that Catholics aren't particularly any more or less prone to speculate on Heaven than any other Chrisians I've known, and their concepts are as varied amongst themselves as between them and non-Catholics. (Granted my sample is very small considering the world-wide influence of The Catholic Church).
Anyway, I thank you all for replying. If anyone else wants to share, the thread is open and I'm still accepting email on the subject. Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread safe and civil and allowing people to share.
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posted
Taking shameless advantage of this thread to invite katdog42 to the Papal Authority thread to keep me honest.
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I spent about two weeks in Brazil one time , it was a great trip, but I didn’t see much that would directly relate to your question. I am not sure how many people spend much time thinking about what heaven would be like.
I have heard Latin American Christians, the vast majority of who are Catholic are much more traditional and focused on the more mystical part of the Christian beliefs than their North American counterparts. I also believe they tend to incorporate some of the superstitions from the countries diverse cultural background (African, South American Indians, and Portuguese) into the Catholic faith. So it could be interesting to work in a couple influences to your character’s beliefs that may have come from something other than pure Catholicism.
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