FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » According to you, is the Earth less than 6,000 years old? (Page 0)

  This topic comprises 18 pages: 1  2  3  4  ...  16  17  18   
Author Topic: According to you, is the Earth less than 6,000 years old?
Walleo77
Member
Member # 9361

 - posted      Profile for Walleo77           Edit/Delete Post 
Ok. I am a late-comer to this thread. However I will be counted with Ron Lambert in the "Yes the earth is young. Less than 10000 years anyway. Certainly less than 15000 years." Ron, your defense of YE is right on the money.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ron Lambert
Member
Member # 2872

 - posted      Profile for Ron Lambert   Email Ron Lambert         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Walleo77. I know there are plenty of like-minded others, but sometimes when greatly outnumbered by the old earthers as the debates rage on, it is hard not to feel like a Lone Ranger. Thank God for the silver bullets!

Lisa, when the Jewish guy in your story says Jews have been around for 6,000 years, is he counting Adam as the first Jew?

Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
It's a joke, Ron. Sheesh. But in a way, yes. Because Adam learned the truth from God. He taught it to his descendents, and some of them listened. Enoch, for instance.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But Jesus preached that the law was spiritual, and went way beyond outward appearance. So that the law could convict the rich younger ruler of sin, Jesus made a specific request of him, which would reveal the true state of his heart, whether he loved God above all, and his neighbor as himself, as the law truly requires.
What an interesting way to look at things. Personally, I disagree. Jesus told him this not to "convict" the young man of sin, but to open his mind to happiness.

The law does not exist to condemn. It exists to enlighten.

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Thank God for the silver bullets!
I didn't realize that scientists were werewolves.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
I've considered writing a Dark Western script for the Lone Ranger mythos. He's got a really engaging character and backstory.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ron Lambert
Member
Member # 2872

 - posted      Profile for Ron Lambert   Email Ron Lambert         Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, Kent Hovind likes to use wooden stakes. I prefer the silver bullets. Less splinters.

I would not say that old earth, evolutionist scientists are werewolves--rather, I think that many Dr. Jekyls are prone to turning into Mr. Hydes, if they take to its logical conclusion their teaching that humans are just advanced animals.

Lisa, are you trying to tell us that Adam, and Enoch, were circumcized? Can anyone be a Jew without being circumcized? (Men, anyway.)

I just thought of a cool question for you, Lisa. What if all Jewish males died, leaving only Jewish females? If no male Jews existed anymore, would Jews still exist?

[ December 21, 2006, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
Abraham was a Jew before he was circumcized. Of course, I'm using the term "Jew" imprecisely. The knowledge Adam had, he taught to further generations. Abraham studied with Shem and Eber, as did Isaac. Jacob only studied with Eber, because Shem had died by that time.

Prior to the Revelation at Sinai, being a Jew was not hereditary. Isaac opted in; Ishmael opted out. Jacob opted in; Esau opted out.

At Sinai, God bound us together and created us as His people. You can't opt out any more, though you can opt in.

Technically, the term "Jew" (Yehudi in Hebrew, meaning "of Judah") refers either to a descendent of the tribe of Judah or an inhabitant of the kingdom of Judah. But it's the common term for us, even when it's anachronistic. I can't say Jacob was an Israelite -- he was Israel.

The terminology isn't the issue; the knowledge given from God is.

And to answer your question, Ron, it can't happen. It's as impossible a question as "What if God made a rock so heavy that He Himself could not lift it." Though since you're Jewish if your mother is, I can't see why this would be an issue anyway. It would, however, mean that Jews born from that point on would be tribeless, and we'd have no Kohanim or Leviim.

Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I think that many Dr. Jekyls are prone to turning into Mr. Hydes, if they take to its logical conclusion their teaching that humans are just advanced animals.
I'm intrigued by this. Ron, if you thought you were just an advanced animal, what would you do differently?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:


I just thought of a cool question for you, Lisa. What if all Jewish males died, leaving only Jewish females? If no male Jews existed anymore, would Jews still exist?

this strikes me as being a horrible question.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
Ever read Y: The Last Man? It's a comic put out by Vertigo (DC) in which every male mammal in the world dies suddenly, all at once. Except for this guy Yorick Brown and his pet (male) monkey, Ampersand.

It is not a gigglefest. And -- waah -- it's almost over.

Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
See, Ron. I think that is a very good answer. Very reasonable. I apply that kind of reasonablness to the OT and Revelations. I think they are meant to illustrate larger truths, not that they are meant to be understood literally.

Where you are I really differ, though (I think) is in where literalism matters. From a theological standpoint, it is a matter of mild curiousity when the earth was created or in what order. The answers to questions like, "what are the signs of the Rapture?" or even "was Mary a biological virgin?" would be met by a response of "hmmm...that's interesting" from me.

In contrast, questions like, "does Jesus really expect us to give to everyone who asks of us?" and "how do I define my "need" verses what I should be giving away in a way that Jesus would endorse" or "am I really supposed to believe that doing something (or failing to do it) for 'the least of these' is the same as doing something (or failing to do it) for Jesus?" - for me these are the questions that matter. The answers of these questions are the ones that can change the world. Can bring about God's will on earth "as it is in Heaven".

Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fiddle_stix
Member
Member # 9941

 - posted      Profile for fiddle_stix           Edit/Delete Post 
hi walleo [Wave]
Posts: 79 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

See, Ron. I think that is a very good answer. Very reasonable. I apply that kind of reasonablness to the OT and Revelations. I think they are meant to illustrate larger truths, not that they are meant to be understood literally.

Or perhaps John LITERALLY saw those things, and how those images are rightly translated into literal events is the challenge of the whole thing.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hitoshi
Member
Member # 8218

 - posted      Profile for Hitoshi   Email Hitoshi         Edit/Delete Post 
Ron, do you believe a person's salvation is dependent upon their acceptance or rejection of YEC dogma? This is an honest question, I can't figure out whether you view it as vital or not to a person's salvation.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by fiddle_stix:
hi walleo [Wave]

I am singlehandedly bringing the population of Hatrack up. [Big Grin]
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
I've considered writing a Dark Western script for the Lone Ranger mythos. He's got a really engaging character and backstory.

Ohhhh ... cool.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
Lest the main point of the thread be forgotten: Vaaaaarves!
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Walleo77
Member
Member # 9361

 - posted      Profile for Walleo77           Edit/Delete Post 
Originally posted by fiddle_stix:
hi walleo

Posts: 11 | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Walleo77
Member
Member # 9361

 - posted      Profile for Walleo77           Edit/Delete Post 
Hi fiddle_stix
Posts: 11 | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
Not that I would ever dream of going the ad hom route, or (heaven forbid!) trolling. No, no, I stick strictly to the facts and the reasoning. An argument is not at fault for being made by people of sub-optimal intelligence; either it's sound in and of itself, or it isn't.

But still, I do find it interesting that of the two creationists in this thread, the one who talks like a sock puppet is apparently unable to figure out how quoting works.

Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
But still, I do find it interesting that of the two creationists in this thread, the one who talks like a sock puppet is apparently unable to figure out how quoting works.

Heh. I think it comes from his time spent over on Ornery, where several particularly annoying people refuse to use quoting as a matter of... well, just to be annoying, I think.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ron Lambert
Member
Member # 2872

 - posted      Profile for Ron Lambert   Email Ron Lambert         Edit/Delete Post 
Lisa, you said: "At Sinai, God bound us together and created us as His people. You can't opt out any more, though you can opt in." This reads like a Jewish version of "Once saved, always saved."

kmboots: Good thoughts. Not to imply that I am any closer, but I think you are probably not far from the kingdom.

Scott R, is your "Dark Western script for the Lone Ranger mythos" anything like Stephen King's Dark Tower stories? The words just seemed evocative.

Tom, if I believed I were just an advanced animal, then I would have no reason to care about right and wrong, not really. I would only about care about the chances of getting caught and risk vs. benefits.

Hitoshi, I would not consider rejection of the YEC (Young Earth Creationist) view as a permanent barrier to being saved. But it might increase the odds against developing faith in God. Truth that rightly represents God's character always improves a person's chances that he or she will make the right choices in order to be saved; and few things misrepresent God's character more than believing He would use something as violent and bloody and pitiless as evolution to create life.

One of the other chief things that misrepresents God's character and turns multitudes away from having faith in God is the doctrine of eternal torment in an everlasting hellfire. The Bible makes it clear that ultimately sin and all who cling to it will be eradicated from the universe. There will not be some remote, shunned corner of the universe where the wicked will be eternally tormented, cursing (thus continuing to sin). Even Satan will be burned up, and cease to exist. God addressed these words to Satan (Lucifer), the real power behind the throne of the king of Tyre: "...I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Ezekiel 28:18, 19.) The one to whom these words were addressed is also the one who was said to have been "in Eden, the garden of God," and to have been one of "the anointed cherub that covereth." (See verses 13, 14.)

[ December 22, 2006, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

Tom, if I believed I were just an advanced animal, then I would have no reason to care about right and wrong, not really. I would only about care about the chances of getting caught and risk vs. benefits.

Really? Why do you think so?
I, for example, believe that I am merely an advanced animal, and yet believe firmly that I have plenty of reasons to care about right and wrong. Do you not think that you'd be as capable as I am of developing a logical moral framework?

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ron Lambert
Member
Member # 2872

 - posted      Profile for Ron Lambert   Email Ron Lambert         Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, if you think you are no more than an advanced animal, and that God no where enters the picture, then any sense of morality you have is the result of having been raised to be moral. But there is in fact no logical reason for you to be moral. Those who follow after you, and are led to believe as you believe, who have not had the moral uprbringing you had, will turn out quite differently than you have. They will manifest no restraint, where you have restraint. They will push the envelope of what they can get away with. The concept of what is right and what is wrong will be without meaning to them.

I recognize and admit that this would be true of me. And I dare suggest we share the same nature.

Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But there is in fact no logical reason for you to be moral.
Wrong; there are plenty, starting with "I prefer not to live in the kind of society that immoral people build". You should note that both my parents, as far as I know, are atheists; certainly they never mentioned any gods to me. So I'm the second generation of considering myself as an advanced animal. Yet somehow, I don't seem to have raped or killed anyone. Odd, that.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:
But there is in fact no logical reason for you to be moral.
Wrong; there are plenty, starting with "I prefer not to live in the kind of society that immoral people build". You should note that both my parents, as far as I know, are atheists; certainly they never mentioned any gods to me. So I'm the second generation of considering myself as an advanced animal. Yet somehow, I don't seem to have raped or killed anyone. Odd, that.
<clap clap>

Have you ever heard of atheists killing people because they were religious? Because I have. Also KOM I seriously doubt you are calling yourself the pinnacle of human ethics, certainly even the most well behaved atheist is not perfect. Though I think it would be interesting to compare a well behaved atheist to a well behaved theist and see what they are like.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Lisa, you said: "At Sinai, God bound us together and created us as His people. You can't opt out any more, though you can opt in." This reads like a Jewish version of "Once saved, always saved."

Quite the contrary. Jews have more obligations than non-Jews; opting in is accepting those obligations, but there is no way to get out of them.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Have you ever heard of atheists killing people because they were religious?
Yes, you've heard of it. Because the Christian apologists tend to publicise those incidents, and completely gloss over the very strong resemblance between Communism and your average religion. Pol Pot wasn't killing people so much because they were religious, but because they had the wrong religion; which is an old and hallowed tradition. Which, in fact, brings me to my point: What you don't hear so much about is theists killing atheists, because that's not news. That's olds. It's "dog bites man". It's been going on for two thousand years, and in fact would be continuing still if not for the nice little civil war between competing theists called the Reformation, which gave us our chance. With atheists, it's worthy of note when they start retaliating; with theists, it's their ordinary mode of existence, enshrined in holy books and kept at bay only by the armed truce that we laughingly call "religious tolerance". That is why atheists are morally superior.

quote:
Also KOM I seriously doubt you are calling yourself the pinnacle of human ethics, certainly even the most well behaved atheist is not perfect.
Not relevant, that's not the discussion we were having. The question was, "Are you a moral person", not "Are you perfect". If you're going to bring in that kind of strawman, count me out of the discussion. And further, I am in fact morally superior to any theist you care to name, just by virtue of being willing to look the damn facts in the eye and defy them to do their worst.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But there is in fact no logical reason for you to be moral.
This is absolutely untrue. In fact, I've been engaged for some time on another forum laying out what is ultimately a logical, materialistic case for some form of shared morality.

People who claim that religion is necessary for a logical morality confuse authority with logic.

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ron Lambert
Member
Member # 2872

 - posted      Profile for Ron Lambert   Email Ron Lambert         Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps it is relevant to consider the difference between ethical behavior and moral behavior.

The ethical man knows it is wrong to sleep with his friend's wife. The moral man will not sleep with his friend's wife.

Everyone thinks their ethics are their morals, until they are tested. Then and only then are their real morals revealed.

Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ron Lambert
Member
Member # 2872

 - posted      Profile for Ron Lambert   Email Ron Lambert         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Quite the contrary. Jews have more obligations than non-Jews; opting in is accepting those obligations, but there is no way to get out of them.

But Rivka, if someone has opted to be Jewish, and he can never opt out, then why bother to follow all those obligations? This is in essence the same question with which many of us brace certain Baptists, who claim that once they are saved they are always saved: Why should they bother to do good and resist evil?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
But Rivka, if someone has opted to be Jewish, and he can never opt out, then why bother to follow all those obligations? This is in essence the same question with which many of us brace certain Baptists, who claim that once they are saved they are always saved: Why should they bother to do good and resist evil? [/QB]

In the case of the Baptists, you have a point; but for the Jew, the answer is much simpler: He doesn't get into Heaven (whatever it is they call the good afterlife) just by being a Jew, he needs to follow those obligations. You can't become an un-Jew by not doing so, but you can become a bad Jew. No Chinese food!


quote:
The ethical man knows it is wrong to sleep with his friend's wife. The moral man will not sleep with his friend's wife.
What's your point? Cut to the chase: Which one are you accusing atheists of not having?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
Now, let's be fair: it's entirely possible that Ron would be sleeping with another man's wife right now if not for his belief in God.

I wouldn't be, but that's only because I'm a moral person.

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
But still, I do find it interesting that of the two creationists in this thread, the one who talks like a sock puppet is apparently unable to figure out how quoting works.

KoM, if you're talking about Walleo, I know this is a futile gesture, but lay off. On some things you know a massive amount and are even sometimes able to articulate gracefully, but on others you are woefully ignorant. The man known as Walleo is one of those things, and as someone who does know him quite well, I'm asking you as nice as I possibly can to curb your tongue and be respectful, if not of his beliefs, as least of him.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Scott R, is your "Dark Western script for the Lone Ranger mythos" anything like Stephen King's Dark Tower stories? The words just seemed evocative.

No. Well, honestly, I should say, "I don't know, never having read the Dark Tower series."

But it would not be a fantasy. It'd be a straight up western.

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KarlEd
Member
Member # 571

 - posted      Profile for KarlEd   Email KarlEd         Edit/Delete Post 
Ron,
quote:
if you think you are no more than an advanced animal, and that God no where enters the picture, then any sense of morality you have is the result of having been raised to be moral.
I believe that I am an advanced animal and that morality is not derived from God.

On the other hand, I get your point that much of what I believe to be morally correct I got from my parents who are (still) theists, Christians, and more specifically Mormon. I cannot with certainty tell you which of my "logical moral beliefs" are hold-overs from my religious upbringing, but neither can you tell me with certainty which of your "religious moral beliefs" actually arose from God rather than arose as a natural product of evolution-born intelligence only to eventually have God tacked on as an authority to which one could appeal when logic proved inadequate to persuade.

You are right about moral upbringing, however. If the next generation isn't taught the inherent value of living a moral life, they will continually push the envelope without questioning or restraint. I, too, see destruction, chaos, and anarchy down that path. Where we differ is that I believe morality can be taught to intelligent people without appeal to Divine Authority.

quote:
Those who follow after you, and are led to believe as you believe, who have not had the moral uprbringing you had, will turn out quite differently than you have. They will manifest no restraint, where you have restraint. They will push the envelope of what they can get away with. The concept of what is right and what is wrong will be without meaning to them.
The great irony, though, is that I know an awful lot of people who live seemingly amoral existences, and each one of them professes to believe in God. I know quite a few atheists, too, who live very morally. So I don't think it is rejecting God as an authority (i.e. atheism) that is creating this generation with a "what can I get away with" mentality who "follow after". Rather it is a lack of parents passing on moral values in general. Oddly the vast majority of these failed parents are self-proclaimed theists, and in America at least, self-proclaimed Christians.

[EDIT TO ADD: Don't think I'm simply trading the blame for the lack of morals in the next generation from atheists to Christians. I'm placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of parents who don't live what they profess to believe, regardless of whether that is derived from God or not.

[ December 23, 2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]

Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecthalion
Member
Member # 8825

 - posted      Profile for Ecthalion   Email Ecthalion         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Not that I would ever dream of going the ad hom route, or (heaven forbid!) trolling. No, no, I stick strictly to the facts and the reasoning. An argument is not at fault for being made by people of sub-optimal intelligence; either it's sound in and of itself, or it isn't.

But still, I do find it interesting that of the two creationists in this thread, the one who talks like a sock puppet is apparently unable to figure out how quoting works.

and yet you go Ad hominem oh so frequently.
Posts: 467 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Walleo77
Member
Member # 9361

 - posted      Profile for Walleo77           Edit/Delete Post 
Dr Strangelove, do you think he was actually talking about me? A sock puppet? And I thought that I was only agreeing with someone. I didn't realize that by agreeing with someone it put me in the precarious position of having someones hand up my but wait. A sock. That would mean that there would be a hand shoved DOWN and then for me to communicate turn me upside down. A most disturbing position indeed.
Also, my apologies to kom for my ignorance of how to use the website tools. Perhaps with someone elses help I will be able to use them correctly.

quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:

And further, I am in fact morally superior to any theist you care to name, just by virtue of being willing to look the damn facts in the eye and defy them to do their worst.

And I certainly won't throw any facts your way either. It would be foolish to throw facts at someone only to have them ignored.

Oh well, time to go. I have a twin to look for.

Posts: 11 | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if he was referring to you or not old man ( [Wink] ). I was in something of a volatile mood last night, and as there was a 50% chance of him referring to you, I took him up on it.

Now you've got me curious as to the twin. I'll ask you tomorrow (you will be at church tomorrow, at least for the evening, right?).


(If we try hard enough, we might be able to derail even this thread. 17 pages is a hard task, but we can try [Wink] )

Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecthalion
Member
Member # 8825

 - posted      Profile for Ecthalion   Email Ecthalion         Edit/Delete Post 
it looks already derailed.

and the twin...
he is a sock, so i presume he means he must find the other half of the pair.

Posts: 467 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post 
D'oh! [Wall Bash]
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Lisa, you said: "At Sinai, God bound us together and created us as His people. You can't opt out any more, though you can opt in." This reads like a Jewish version of "Once saved, always saved."

That's because, no surprise, you're insisting on looking at God and the Torah through Christian colored lenses.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Quite the contrary. Jews have more obligations than non-Jews; opting in is accepting those obligations, but there is no way to get out of them.

But Rivka, if someone has opted to be Jewish, and he can never opt out, then why bother to follow all those obligations?
That's a very strange question. It makes no sense at all. We follow those obligations because God commanded us to.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
This is in essence the same question with which many of us brace certain Baptists, who claim that once they are saved they are always saved: Why should they bother to do good and resist evil?

What does "being saved" have to do with doing what's right? I see your point with regard to Baptists, if that's what they really say, and if you're not misprepresenting them (which given the way you misrepresent the Torah, isn't such a stretch). If going to heaven is the be all and end all of what humanity is about, and if you've got a lock on that, why not party till you drop and do whatever the hell you want?

But what on earth does that have to do with what Rivka and I are talking about? It's like I say that oranges have peels, and you say, "Well, then why do bicycles have chains?" It's an utter non sequitur.

Obviously there's some connection in your mind. You're reading some sort of assumption into what we're saying, or something like that, and you're hearing us say something that we're not saying. I'd ask you to clarify, but I'm honestly so tired of hearing you go on that I'm not going to.

Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
But Rivka, if someone has opted to be Jewish, and he can never opt out, then why bother to follow all those obligations? This is in essence the same question with which many of us brace certain Baptists, who claim that once they are saved they are always saved: Why should they bother to do good and resist evil?

In the case of the Baptists, you have a point; but for the Jew, the answer is much simpler: He doesn't get into Heaven (whatever it is they call the good afterlife) just by being a Jew, he needs to follow those obligations. You can't become an un-Jew by not doing so, but you can become a bad Jew. No Chinese food!
Thank you, KoM. Honest to God, Ron, when King of Men gets us (even if he doesn't agree) and it's still opaque to you, it means you're just not listening.

Edit: And KoM, we have chinese food. There are two kosher chinese places within a 5 minute drive from where I'm sitting and typing this.

Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecthalion
Member
Member # 8825

 - posted      Profile for Ecthalion   Email Ecthalion         Edit/Delete Post 
and i do believe that the idea of "once saved always saved" that christian denominations have is based on the beliefe that if you are truely repantant and truely become a christian you will not commit these sins anymore, or at least to a much lesser degree. Many people seem to however think that it gives free liscence to do as they please since they have their "future" secure.
Posts: 467 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post 
ahemRomansahem
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Flaming Toad on a Stick
Member
Member # 9302

 - posted      Profile for Flaming Toad on a Stick   Email Flaming Toad on a Stick         Edit/Delete Post 
I like chinese food.
Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Edit: And KoM, we have chinese food. There are two kosher chinese places within a 5 minute drive from where I'm sitting and typing this.
I meant, for the bad Jews, as in, "Bad X, no cookie!"
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post 
Ah. <grin> Sorry.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 18 pages: 1  2  3  4  ...  16  17  18   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2