posted
[Edit: After some thought, I changed the subject to make it more inviting to discussion rather than argument. --PJ]
I am reading Anne Rice's book Jesus the King out of Egypt. It is interesting in that it scrupulously creates the fictional Jesus by using the Catholic Doctrine, Mary is a virgin and continues to be one, untouched by Joseph for example, Satan is not the Memnoch the Devil humanist but a true hostile entity and so forth.
What I find interesting is that even with the scriptural limitations the day to day life of Jesus comes alive with the context of the known historical events of the day as background. Full of normal grief and suffering with the fascinating addition of the Smallville style emergence of the powers that will make up the focus of his evangelical period.
Enough plugging the book, what I thought about was more controversial. When you consider the book Dune and the various rewrites of the Jesus story and even the Passion story you have a glimpse of the reality of what having a Messiah means, it means choosing a story to use as the core story of your life.
If the Jews one day have their heir to the throne of David show up, and he lives his time and dies, accomplishing wonders (Paul Atredies style) he will leave behind just a story. Like Aurthur and Camelot spawning chivalry, the Christ story and this future Jewish story will be the idealistic force in the lives of those that tell it and cherish it.
What my point is comes down to this, the story of Jesus is an amazing inspiration for those that believe, a powerful force that has glued together the most advanced civilization in the history of the world. A counter example is that of Mohammad, the Islamic ideal and the world that his story has created. What I want to know is how do the Jews top the Jesus story. It is hard to imagine a greater core value then 'Self Sacrifice for the good of all, is the highest ideal.'
Yet another example of this is the LDS church, the Joseph Smith story is clearly a powerful tool for gluing together a strong family and community. It is also in my opinion fictional in large portions. Yet the power of it is in the attention that the people give to it, the place that it holds for them. Again assume that the Jews get their earthly king and he has his time and kicks ass and takes names and then after a long rule goes the way of all kings, what law will he give us that can top the law that Jesus gave us?
Personally, from that point of view, looking at future events from the perspective of hindsight, (something that Herbert called the real trick for the prescient) all I see is that the Jews might as well call it a day, the best story to live by is the one we already have. It makes no difference if it is a composite of other stories pulled together or if it happened exactly as doctrine requires, it is written and giving in too belief in it has proven to be the most powerful transformative force for the advancement of society ever dreamed up. Even Science would be nothing of value to us without the ethical example Christ gave us to guide its efforts. Look what your average Jihadist does when he learns chemistry.
[ November 23, 2006, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
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posted
Oh, man. I have a ten foot pole as part of standard equipment, and I still don't intend to touch this.
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Quite so, and then look at what your average Inquisitor did with mechanics. Very ingenious, those racks.
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Certainly not. The point is to get people to accept Jesus as their saviour. What happens to their bodies can hardly be very important, compared to the eternal fires of hell! On the other hand, if god doesn't really approve of torture, well, those Inquisitors were certainly taking one hell of a risk in the service of their fellow men. There's real altruism: Risking your eternal soul to get people to admit Jesus into their souls!
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Not according to the Inquisitors. It's not very surprising that you can look at the Inquisition 500 later and say that it drifted from the example of Jesus. The people of the time believed they were doing God's will.
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In my opinion, you have once again ventured into areas that have been discussed in great detail on this board in the past, but have managed to do it in a way that is both offensive and tending to silence debate.
I'm not saying all previous instances of this topic here at Hatrack were characterized by a calm meeting of the minds -- they weren't.
But neither did they usually start with such bald aggression. "My Messiah can beat up your Messiah" seemed like maybe you were going for a humorous bent, but then your post is just what the title seems to imply -- just you asserting superiority of your beliefs.
It's too bad, really. It seemed like you were just starting to get the hang of things here.
I request that you take the time to think through that post and the reasons for this thread. Maybe you could edit it to be more inviting of frank discussion?
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Um...okay, that actually IS a violation of the TOS, rude, and something we've been asked specifically by the Cards not to bring up here on Hatrack.
posted
They where protecting and expanding the wealth, power and prerogatives of the central authority, (the Church) hardly the example of Christ, strange what you choose to see as the central story, I wonder what you give life to with your attention.
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Do I explain the difference between the Jewish notion of Moshiach and the odd little caricature GS is spouting? Or do I whistle his post on its multiple TOS violations?
Yeah, I'm going with door number two. Sorry, Pop.
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The Joseph Smith story has made a large group of very good people, my problem with it is that his history of the Americas seems to be archaeologically false at every point. Especially in light of the recent genetic maps of human migration. It is not appropriate to call Joseph Smith crazy, audacious works, ambitious also, maybe even arrogant, but also brilliant and compassionate and a very creative man.
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I must say I do not see where GS is violating the TOS. There does not seem to be any actual mockery in his post. bg57's is something else again.
quote:They where protecting and expanding the wealth, power and prerogatives of the central authority,
No; they were saving souls. The authority of the Catholic church is merely a byproduct; but as that is anyway necessary for the proper relation of man with god, it's not a bad thing. Or do you not think people should accept Jesus as their saviour?
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Sure if you cannot debate the point cry foul, what will be the better story that will be told? If it is unknown to me then educate me, do not be stingy to the uninitiated.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
*blink* *hopes KoM is being funny*
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I'm going to lock this thread while I take a moment to read it and see if it can/should be salvaged. Thanks for the whistles, folks, and if it doesn't get unlocked, look for this post to have a reason edited in if it's not obvious already.
***********************
Edit -- I'm still torn over this. I never made myself a policy as to whether or not a tie goes to the runner.
I think it's possible to interpret the posts to cross the lines of the TOS, and it's possible to interpret them so that they do not (aside from the removed post). I think the first post is confrontational (as opposed to a similar question in another thread) and not at all inviting to people disinterested in an argument rather than a discussion. And from a personal standpoint, I don't plan to have my Thanksgiving ruined by having to police a thread.
I'm going to unlock the thread for now, perhaps against my better judgement, which will probably necessitate my keeping a very close eye on it. I'd appreciate it if you (general) could try not to add to my stress over the holidays -- I don't like holiday stress, which is part of why I left retail management. For those who are interested in continuing a discussion, I'd recommend reading or re-reading Bob's first post -- though personally I think Tom's has considerable merit as well.
posted
One of the things that I find jarring is how familiar Anne Rice's depiction of lifestyle of Jesus and his family is. It is contemporary to the way so many in the Middle East live now, a more crowded intimate lifestyle, so different from the space we grow up in today, yet so like the life in the crowded and poor labor intensive villages along the rivers near Baghdad. I do not know if she was being deliberately heavy handed or not but her depiction of the Roman soldiers in the holy land and the apolitical Jew's speaking of them as Peace Keepers much to be preferred to the soldiers of the Herod's strikes such a cord as I think of those in Iraq who look with much more fear on an Iraqi police uniform then they do an American soldier. 'So long as David's Throne is empty the law of the Cesar's will do' (Anne Rice "Christ the King...") turmoil is bad for business.
What made Rome a force for peace? What makes us the heirs to that role? It is that we are bound with a common optimism that we can work together to do extraordinary things and be part of a larger community, in reality the same thread has bound the Jewish community for all of modern history, holding them together inside foreign lands. It is ironic that the Christ story is a personification of this value, sort of a 'what we learned while exiled' distilled into one man. The role that the moshiach will supposedly play and fulfill seems to be pretty small in comparison to embodying the concept unity of purpose for the good of myself and for everybody else.
It is in a way the intuitive next step in evolution from organism to collective organism just as cellular gave way to multicellular, (or more to say that multicellular leveraged some room among the cellular.) yet this perspective too which this concept holds up is thousands of years newer then the Christ story, there it is again staring at you.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: [Edit: After some thought, I changed the subject to make it more inviting to discussion rather than argument. --PJ]
Now I'm curious to know what the original subject was.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: If the Jews one day have their heir to the throne of David show up, and he lives his time and dies, accomplishing wonders (Paul Atredies style) he will leave behind just a story.
Not really. I know you see the idea of "here today, gone tomorrow" as reasonable, but we don't. That's actually part of the reason we reject your god.
When the messiah comes, that's it. The messianic era will be a complete sea change. Whether the one man dies after accomplishing this isn't the issue.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Like Aurthur and Camelot spawning chivalry, the Christ story and this future Jewish story will be the idealistic force in the lives of those that tell it and cherish it.
With all due respect, you, and everyone else, will recognize the truth at that point. There won't be multiple "stories" in the way you describe.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: What I want to know is how do the Jews top the Jesus story. It is hard to imagine a greater core value then 'Self Sacrifice for the good of all, is the highest ideal.'
No offense, but I can hardly imagine a more horrifying value. I'd say that loving and obeying God and doing the right thing is the highest value.
As far as "topping" your story, why would we care about that? We don't think your story is true. Neither will you, when the time comes. Truth always tops non-truth, simply by its nature.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Again assume that the Jews get their earthly king and he has his time and kicks ass and takes names and then after a long rule goes the way of all kings, what law will he give us that can top the law that Jesus gave us?
God. Truth. An end to the pagan idea of human sacrifice.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Personally, from that point of view, looking at future events from the perspective of hindsight, (something that Herbert called the real trick for the prescient) all I see is that the Jews might as well call it a day, the best story to live by is the one we already have.
How very smarmy of you. Your story would be a bad one even if it weren't a false one. Your story has given birth to some of the worst atrocities in human history. In fact, the only saving grace is that so many of your co-religionists don't take it so literally any more.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: It makes no difference if it is a composite of other stories pulled together or if it happened exactly as doctrine requires, it is written and giving in too belief in it has proven to be the most powerful transformative force for the advancement of society ever dreamed up.
You really need a history lesson, General. It's precisely when people rebelled against your religion that society began to live. The Dark Ages are a tribute to your story. It was when people got sick of it and started to cast it off that science was born. That knowledge was born. That the principles of freedom and liberty were born.
When I think about what Mankind could be had we not been hobbled by centuries of a Christian boot on our collective heads...
All the good Christians I know are absolutely horrified to think about that stuff. What they don't get is that it's the nature of the beast. When you worship the idea of sacrifice, people are going to get sacrificed. And it wasn't even always Jews. Y'all did a great job of stomping the life out of your own, as well.
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Then with all due respect, you do not understand it. But I fear that if you did, like so many Jews who really take a close look at Jesus you might end up on the outside of your Nation/Religion, so I am not sure I feel bad for you.
The Dark Ages were not that Dark, the description was more of a propaganda tool of the Renaissance to make a claim of a 'New Deal' but even so, the progress of history is by no means a certain thing. Moses would have recognized the things in the time of Jesus as largely familiar, yet in a fifth the of that time the Western world has gone beyond the comprehension of a visitor from the past into the realm of magic. This has been driven by those who's societies have been given shape by Christian values.
You cannot argue with success and say that this is all 'in spite of' those teachings, because in a very real way that is admitting that it is 'because of' those teachings. If it is the result of tension then both ends are responsible for the creative energy, without which the world would still be recognizable to Moses and a return to Jewish law under a moshiach might make sense, but that ship has sailed.
I noticed that you skipped commenting on the portion of my post that pointed out that even science, the refuge you took as our real source of salvation from the 'Dark Ages' is a power that can just as easily destroy in the hands of the immoral and unethical. I point this out so that others can see your tacit agreement for the what it is, a hope that in the avalanche of disagreement they will miss the obvious, that you yourself know that power in the hands of Christians is in the safest and most generous hands.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
i love reading your posts Lisa they're always interesting to read.
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This is kind of like watching matter and anti-matter collide.
With all due respect, Lisa, you seem to be responding to a caricature of Christianity that is at least as inaccurate as GS' take on parts of Judaism.
Judaism is not without its historical perversions away from the core message used to justify all sorts of things. And when you say "well ours is true" or "ours is from God, that's the difference," it just begs for only one response:
Prove it.
And since you can't, I'll give you the same sort of advice I tried to give GS:
Tone it down a notch.
There is no earthly need for this. Even rising to the bait of GS' statements is insufficient causus belli.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
But, perhaps if you'd read the whole thread (so far) through before responding in your usual chopped up way you might've discovered the request from our friendly moderator to, um, use moderation today and keep the discussion just a tad on the lighter side.
GS has restated his original post -- I don't think he's figured out that he can edit yet (or he wanted to leave it as is for whatever reason).
So...I'll ask you to edit your posts to take it down a notch.
posted
When I say the story of Jesus, let me clarify so we do not keep hearing about auto-de-fey's and flat earth and such.
Jesus held my hand. Not a hyperbole, once when I was a child,(I am not priest or pastor or even in my opinion a very nice guy, I am too familiar with violence and anger and I am happy to have a stalemate rather then a victory of virtue in my heart) I was sick with a vague sort of illness defined as viral Enteritis. Intestinal flu. I went two weeks without food and ran a fever, I lost forty pounds, and when I was at my worst I was alone in a waking dream from which came a storm of chaotic images, and then a hand grabbed mine and I held it and I knew it was Jesus' hand.
Of course the entire experience is 'not real' but it exemplifies exactly what Jesus Christ is that a Worldly King cannot be, Jesus is my brother, he might dislike what I am doing, and that disapproval shapes me away from what is wrong, but he loves me personally like a brother, he is in on my pranks, he is there beside the bed as I thrash in fever. A king is a man that is above the common man, he cannot be otherwise.
God is the Father and always has been to the Jews and the Christians and even the Muslims, a stern father, but Jesus is my brother and the brother of every other man, so in that way we all become brothers. That is Christ and that is why the Christians are so strong and annoying.
For who can irritate you more then your family (It is Thanksgiving after all) and where is there a greater source of strength? The common thread of law and ritual has kept the original ties of the Jewish family and made them grow into a nation, but it also is exclusive, the family of Jesus is inclusive (and has some poor backward cousins) but everyone is family, and Jesus is our brother...
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GS, just out of curiosity, is there a particular church that you attend? What denomination?
I'm not really placing your take on things as being in keeping with the mainstream denominations I'm aware of. I'm not completely up on this stuff, to be sure, but I've tried enough of them to usually be able to spot which perspective a person is coming from...
(PS: I've known a few Southern Baptists who sue some of the same phrases you do, but they weren't actually among the most closely integrated folks, if you know what I mean).
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: The Joseph Smith story has made a large group of very good people, my problem with it is that his history of the Americas seems to be archaeologically false at every point. Especially in light of the recent genetic maps of human migration. It is not appropriate to call Joseph Smith crazy, audacious works, ambitious also, maybe even arrogant, but also brilliant and compassionate and a very creative man.
[aside, from 10 ft away] Mormons don't consider Joseph Smith to be a Messiah figure at all. He was a prophet, like Moses, for example. [/aside]
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Yes but his life is a story, like the story of Jesus, it is just full of too many 'facts' that should be confirmable that are not. It is not a bad story, those that live it are happy healthy and good, much of this is of course tied to the story of Jesus and its power. However to believe the story you need to believe that Jews settled South America had vast empires and chariots with horses and then left no traces of bloodline, horse, tool and empire, and that is a long stretch.
Still the point is that after the life of the leader all we have is the story, and though that story lasts long, (As Herbert had the life of Leto the God Emperor last for thousands of years but for ten thousand more after he was the Tyrant) The Messiah is a story you can believe in, the measure of a Messiah is and should be the greatness of those that believe in the story after that time.
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posted
"but Jesus is my brother and the brother of every other man"
It always seemed to me that Christians look at Jesus as a God more than a brother. IMO, people don't usually pray to their brothers and worship him and beg him for forgiveness for things they did to other people. That's something you do to God, not a brother.
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posted
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, these three are one... Jesus the Messiah is the Son and that is the part that is the brother of man, this is how an unchanging and unchangable father can become new...
Still this is a thread about the Messiah so naturally that part is the focus.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Then with all due respect, you do not understand it. But I fear that if you did, like so many Jews who really take a close look at Jesus you might end up on the outside of your Nation/Religion, so I am not sure I feel bad for you.
You don't actually know how close a look I've taken. You're making the mistake of thinking that anyone who rejects your religion just hasn't looked closely enough at it. That's wrong.
Your religion starts with bad premises. Really bad ideas like your so-called "Golden Rule". No one should be surprised when a religion based on a rule like that commits crimes against people.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: You cannot argue with success and say that this is all 'in spite of' those teachings, because in a very real way that is admitting that it is 'because of' those teachings.
You're wrong. I can, and I do, say that the success of Western Civilization is due to its casting off of Christian ideas. To the extent that Western Civilization remains flawed, it is because it has not yet fully done this.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: If it is the result of tension then both ends are responsible for the creative energy, without which the world would still be recognizable to Moses and a return to Jewish law under a moshiach might make sense, but that ship has sailed.
Sailed, mein tuchas. The truth existed before Christianity came into being, and it'll exist when Christianity is an embarrassing memory in human history. A thing about which people will say, "Well, God works in mysterious ways. He used things like Christianity and Islam to pave the way for the truth, and that's fine, but thank God we don't have those false ideas around any more."
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I noticed that you skipped commenting on the portion of my post that pointed out that even science, the refuge you took as our real source of salvation from the 'Dark Ages' is a power that can just as easily destroy in the hands of the immoral and unethical.
Yes. Science is a tool. It can be used for good and for evil. Christianity, on the other hand, is an idea. And it's a bad one. When it is used for good, and I admit that it sometimes happens, that's the exceptional thing.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I point this out so that others can see your tacit agreement for the what it is, a hope that in the avalanche of disagreement they will miss the obvious, that you yourself know that power in the hands of Christians is in the safest and most generous hands.
You are a liar, General. A dishonest con man. Trying to put words like that into my mouth only showcases your dishonesty and falseness. I would a thousand times rather have power in the hands even of atheists than I would have it in Christian hands. Your coreligionists have been doing a reasonable job of making some amends for their historic crimes. But they've a ways to go. And when someone like you raises his head, it only serves to remind the rest of the world what Christianity is really about.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Jesus held my hand.
You are delusional.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I lost forty pounds,
Wow...! Just like 40 days in the desert! Amazing!
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: and when I was at my worst I was alone in a waking dream from which came a storm of chaotic images, and then a hand grabbed mine and I held it and I knew it was Jesus' hand.
Just one more of the chaotic images. But you chose to interpret it within your own personal religious background. A snare and a delusion, General Sax. Utterly without truth.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: A king is a man that is above the common man, he cannot be otherwise.
And that's a big part of what Christianity is all about. Like all pagan religions, it stems from a basic discomfort with the fact that God is so far above us. Many people, unwilling to bow to that fact, feel the need to bring God down to a more... shall we say "manageable" size. So you had people making little statues and calling those gods. And we have General Sax calling his god his brother. It's all the same thing. You feel threatened by who God is and who you are, and you defy that by trying to make Him earthbound.
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posted
Since Bob's gentle reminder seemed to do no good, I'll post one of a different sort:
quote:You also agree that you will not use this forum to try to convert people to your own religious beliefs, or to disparage others for their own religious beliefs.
So, Lisa, do you consider the following to be keeping your word - i.e., the promise you made when you registered?
quote:You are delusional.
quote:Wow...! Just like 40 days in the desert! Amazing!
quote:Christianity, on the other hand, is an idea. And it's a bad one.
quote:Like all pagan religions, it stems from a basic discomfort with the fact that God is so far above us.
quote:You feel threatened by who God is and who you are, and you defy that by trying to make Him earthbound.
quote:it only serves to remind the rest of the world what Christianity is really about.
posted
I am always bemused when I see someone who believes that they have personal proof of their god calling someone who claims to have personal proof of his god "delusional."
And so many people do it completely without irony, too.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I am always bemused when I see someone who believes that they have personal proof of their god calling someone who claims to have personal proof of his god "delusional."
Funny thing, though. I didn't claim to have personal proof. Come on, Tom, pay attention.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Since Bob's gentle reminder seemed to do no good, I'll post one of a different sort:
quote:You also agree that you will not use this forum to try to convert people to your own religious beliefs, or to disparage others for their own religious beliefs.
So, Lisa, do you consider the following to be keeping your word - i.e., the promise you made when you registered?
quote:You are delusional.
quote:Wow...! Just like 40 days in the desert! Amazing!
quote:Christianity, on the other hand, is an idea. And it's a bad one.
quote:Like all pagan religions, it stems from a basic discomfort with the fact that God is so far above us.
quote:You feel threatened by who God is and who you are, and you defy that by trying to make Him earthbound.
quote:it only serves to remind the rest of the world what Christianity is really about.
Yep. I'm disparaging General Sax not for his religious beliefs, but for his being an a**hat.
And let me add that I don't think Papa would have opened this thread back up if it hadn't been about Christianity. The first post is incredibly and gratuitously offensive, and he's only gotten worse since then.
Since Papa apparently has no problem allowing this, I'll merely hope that he'll be willing to be even-handed about it.
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posted
The second to last sentence of yours I quoted, at least, is not aimed solely at GS. (Edit: and is predicated solely on the religious beliefs of us "pagans.")
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quote:Funny thing, though. I didn't claim to have personal proof.
No, that's true. You deal in absolutism despite the complete absence of proof, which I'm sure is much better.
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posted
I suppose I should have known better. And now I'm sure it will be said, at least by some, that I'm locking it because Christianity is being insulted. Well, I guess I can't control people's thoughts, no matter how much people might think I try.
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