posted
You will find me listening to the occasional hip hop and rap from the 80's and early 90's but never will you catch me hearing anything from today. The mainstream stuff has really gone downhill, in my opinion. In music of those times I found that there was more rhythm to the music, it was more...danceable. It's just that the hop-hop/rap of today is just...bad. Of what I've heard, it's just about drugs, women, and sex. It's no longer the, "Let's go dance and have fun" kind of music. The only contemporary song I liked that belongs to this genre was "Hey Ya" and I'm not even sure if it qualifies as hip-hop/rap.
What has happened to the music? A lot of my friends listen to it and just don't understand why they do. For the most part, the songs generally belittle women in horrible ways and encourage drug use a lot.
posted
I think your listening to the wrong hiphop. Much of what you hear on popular radio stations and MTV are exactly what you describe, but there is still a vibrant hiphop community very dedicated to the art and intelligence of rap music.
You mentioned Outkast, who I would say is very talented and whos lyrics are usually fairly smart. Also, Jurassic 5 is very good, as is Del the Funky Homosapian and Blackalicious. A few of their songs deal with drugs, women or violence, but then, there are songs in every genre, by just about every artist that do. Most of their songs are about politics, race relations or the faults of the hiphop scene. And some are just plain silly and make a guy giggle.
I would humbly suggest you check out some of the more underground hip hop artists. Check your local public access radio station, they usually have a pretty good rap program, if your near a big enough city.
Edit: Ooh ooh, add A Tribe Called Quest to that. They are excellent, though they get a little political/preachy.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Mysogynistic and materialistic. I hate both of those things.
I got an OutKast CD and I liked very much the songs that were not either of the above two characteristics.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I liked Hey Ya a lot because I can actually dance to it. Where as the lyrics and music of Lil' Kim (why do they keep calling themselves lil'?) disgusts me in every way imaginable.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
If you are looking for some more intelligent/less offensive hip-hop, I would recomend you check out The Heiruspecs. I saw them live about a year and a half ago when they oppened for Cake, and I was really impressed. First of all they actualy play instruments instead of relying entirely on pre-produced samples and loops and their lyrics appeal to someone like me who didn't grow up as a "gangsta in da hood" (they even mention Starcraft in one of their songs). Check out their album "A Tiger Dancing" if you get a chance.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I hate most rap. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics). I have found a few, most notably:
posted
Matisyahu is kind of rap. He's kind of reggea too. But he's Jewish and his lyrics are related to doctrine.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I've not listened to it, but if it doesn't make me want to get up and dance in a happy-go-lucky way, then maybe it's not my type of music.
I generally hear many different types of music It's mostly Japanese pop, techno/synth-pop, dance, Latin pop, German pop/dance/techno/industrial, and some opera.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Unfortunately, the popular music and the great music in each genre are rarely the same.
This is a case of a larger pattern: What is popular and what is of good quality are rarely the same.
What all fall under Theodor Sturgeon's Revelation:
"Ninety percent of Science Fiction is crap, but then, ninety percent of everything is crap."
I have found some rap that I enjoy, and some jazz that I enjoy, and some country I enjoy, and some heavy metal that I enjoy...etc. But most of it is junk. Even in the music genre's I love, most of it is junk.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: Matisyahu is kind of rap. He's kind of reggea too. But he's Jewish and his lyrics are related to doctrine.
And he's, you know, really bad.
Have you listened to any of his stuff? His first album is actually decent. The song "King Without a Crown" or whatever it's called is off that CD. That's a good song.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Unfortunately, the popular music and the great music in each genre are rarely the same.
This is a case of a larger pattern: What is popular and what is of good quality are rarely the same.
What all fall under Theodor Sturgeon's Revelation:
"Ninety percent of Science Fiction is crap, but then, ninety percent of everything is crap."
Actually, believe it or not, based on earwitness accounts, he actually said "crud".
Personally, I don't know why the initial "c" in country music is pronounced when it isn't pronounced in rap.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
If you like old school hip hop (from back when it was called rap) and don't like materialism and mysogynism (is that a word?), check out my buddies' website Big Beat Battalion.
Posts: 80 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
As far as rap goes, lately I've been listening to old school Beastie Boys (Theres some Jewish rap for you!) "Paul's Boutique" (Album) "Eggman" and especially "Shake Your Rump" have made work WAY more enjoyable.
Occasionally I get seized by Rage Against the Machine and after a month it passes.
I've been listening to alot of Nobuo Uematsu lately. There is something about Japanese composers that just sounds truer to classical music then what Americans and Europeans are doing nowadays with the same instruments.
But maybe I am just unexposed to the good stuff.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: Matisyahu is kind of rap. He's kind of reggea too. But he's Jewish and his lyrics are related to doctrine.
And he's, you know, really bad.
Have you listened to any of his stuff? His first album is actually decent. The song "King Without a Crown" or whatever it's called is off that CD. That's a good song.
Yes, unfortunately, I've listened to most of his music - forced upon me by people who insisted that I would find something to like.
posted
Maybe you just don't like it. That doesn't mean it isn't good. I don't like any country music. And it's very popular. So, some of it must be decent. I just don't like it. I also don't like opera. Personal prejudices can affect judgement.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: Maybe you just don't like it. That doesn't mean it isn't good. I don't like any country music. And it's very popular. So, some of it must be decent. I just don't like it. I also don't like opera. Personal prejudices can affect judgement.
They sure can, and I'm a huge proponent of seperating judging the quality of the music from judging whether you enjoy the music.
This doesn't change my opinion of Matisyahu as an artist. I both dislike him and think he's a crappy musician.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Im 15 years old but I listen to hip hop from the 80s and 90s. I feel your pain. There are a lot of sites (hiphopdx.com) (allhiphop.com) that post some good music up. They are worth a look in my opinion. They aren't all great, and you have probably listened to most of them, but I got more that I just can't think of. I have a yahoo music station that plays the music from that time period too. I recommend you listen to these dudes if you haven't yet: Mobb Deep: their first album, Infamous, was really good. Rakim: Hes just a legend. Best rapper alive or dead, no question. Public Enemy: If you know who Flava Flav is, this is where he came from. Arguably the best rap duo ever, Chuck D brings the political and social conscience to the table, while Flava Flav is the comic relief. Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth: Best known for their classic song, They Reminisce Over You, but good group altogether. NWA: Even though they're the most vulgar group of all time, they were one of the best without a question. Nas: He was hailed as a hip hop great ever since his first album, Illmatic, dropped back in 1994. Since then he has been inconsistent, but I still recommend almost anything from the Stillmatic or God's Son albums. KRS-One: The Teacher, plain and simple. He's such a lyrical genius that colleges frequently call upon him to speak on their campuses. Coolio: Best known for his song 'Gangsta's Paradise' he also sung the theme song for Kenan & Kel. Eminem: His first album was great, but since then he has wavered off course especially after he affialiated himself with 50 Cent. MC Shan: Very old but very good MC. Wu-Tang Clan: Though their music is stereotyped, they were amongst the greatest group of rappers ever. I highly recommend you listen to at least some of their music, especially 'Triumph' which is my favorite song outta them. Xzibit- my view of him totally changed after I heard this song: Thank You (Live Version) Mos Def: Very innovative and original artist. He's very good. Talib Kweli: One of the few rappers out now that can actualy call himself an MC. Common: Listen to him. He is great. Hes the guy from that GAP commercial thats playing now.
I'm probably the only one here who knows anything about hip hop Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
What?!! Hip hop is nice and respects people. For instance:
"I wanna **** you / your **** wet, you're humping and jumping."
I think that those lines, from the top song in America today, reflect a great deal of catharsis and deal with grandoise issues of existence. They serve as a statement of want vs. need, of existential dread in a schizoid world. The protagonist wants to **** the unknown. The wetness of the **** reflects the wetness of the ocean, a clear allusion to the waters of birth. The song is arguing that lust is really a statement of wanting to return to a priomogenial form.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Nas is a great contemporary rapper. Songs on Illmatic straddle poetry at times. Stillmatic was really good, too.
I also like the old-style rap, ala Grand Master Flash. I like rap that speaks about subjects other than superficial crap like drugs and cars.
Posts: 340 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:You will find me listening to the occasional hip hop and rap from the 80's and early 90's but never will you catch me hearing anything from today....For the most part, the songs generally belittle women in horrible ways and encourage drug use a lot.
quote:And rap of the nineties did not?!
Iccy, if you're insinuating that the talented Sir Mix-A-Lot would ever belittle or objectify women, then you have a lot to learn about knights.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I wonder what rappers and black comics will say if Jesse Jackson succeeds in outlawing the N word...
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most rap. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
I could fit that into a macro.
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most rock. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most country. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most goth. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most emo. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most techno. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most metal. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most punk. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
Wait. Something is wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: I hate most MUSIC. You have to search pretty hard to find stuff that isn't stupid and offensive (and doesn't have uncreative and repetitive music and lyrics).
There you go. Fixed that for you. Not that you are such a person, but I am constantly amused when someone pans a whole genre, and then happily returns to their own preferred genre that exhibits the very same foibles they are so eager to point out in others. The only thing that typically changes is the verbiage.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I wonder what rappers and black comics will say if Jesse Jackson succeeds in outlawing the N word...
What I hate is that you cannot get the so-called "n-word" on a vanity license plate but you can somehow sneak "wetback" in there. One more reason why I hate/detest/loathe the DMV.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Phanto: What?!! Hip hop is nice and respects people. For instance:
"I wanna **** you / your **** wet, you're humping and jumping."
I think that those lines, from the top song in America today, reflect a great deal of catharsis and deal with grandoise issues of existence. They serve as a statement of want vs. need, of existential dread in a schizoid world. The protagonist wants to **** the unknown. The wetness of the **** reflects the wetness of the ocean, a clear allusion to the waters of birth. The song is arguing that lust is really a statement of wanting to return to a priomogenial form.
posted
Pardon me while I ramble for a bit. When I was in college and we were taking the standard required Music Appreciation class or whatever it was called, we had to listen to certain classical music and opera outside of class.
I was in the library just finishing listening to a piece as another guy finished the piece he was listening too. He shook his head with a discussed look on his face, as if this was one of the most horrible things he had ever done. Not being a music snob myself, I thought I would try to get him to understand his own reaction. So, I asked him if he knew why he didn't like this music? My hope was he would think about it and understand, but he came back with a stock answer like 'it sucks'. I tried to explain that this music has endured for hundreds of years, far longer than any 'pop' rock and roll will last. How could if last that long it it sucked?
It was clear he wasn't going to think about it, so I decided to cut to the chase. I explained that he didn't like it because it was melodic music. It lacked that primal rythmic back-beat found in all Rock style music. In fact, music pschologists have found that there is a very specific beat, a very specific timing that all people will instinctively respond to.
What bothers me about a lot of hip-hop and rap is that it exploits that instinctive response to the back-beat and rythme. The instrumentation, and skill of the musician is minimal, it just pure beat, a machine could produce it. Personally, I prefer guitar bands where skill instrumentation is showcased over the back-beat.
Now don't get me wrong, there are some appealing aspects of Rap and Hip-Hop that, while it doesn't appeal to me, I can understand. In a sense, it is like urban poetry set to a back-beat. Yes, some of that poetry is dark and destructive, but it reflects the dark and destructive world that some people live in. Yes, some of it is homophobic and misogynistic, but that does reflect a real aspect of our modern world. That does reflect the culture that some people are thrown into and forced to grow up in. Not everybody can grow up in a clean cut white upper middle class suburban lifestyle.
So, this music reflects dark images because that darkness is a real part of life, a part many middle class people would like to deny.
Urban Rap and Hip-Hop give a poetic voice to disenfranchised people, and some of it is culturally and socially significant. But the part that turns me off to it, is the minimalist musical aspect of it. I didn't listen to Jimi Hendrix to hear him sing, though the songs are nice, I listen to hear him play guitar, and he was one of many guitar gods. He could do things with a guitar that even in this day and age very few guitar wizards can duplicate.
The back-beat of Rap, preys on our kids instintive reaction to that back-beat, and the sad thing is, kids don't even realize how easily they are being manipulated by it, or how easily they are being manipulated by the dark messages contained there in. I hear that dark message and it tells me how bad things are, kids hear it and falsely think it is a message about how good things can be. They listen and think that bitches, whores, guns, drugs, gangs, and killing are something to aspire to. But I think that happens because their own lives have really given them nothing of equal romanic but more positive appeal to aspire too.
posted
I do not like rap very much, the other kids thought this a bit weird, but it's kind of... there's a lot of talking Oddly enough, I love metal. BUt mostly I love old school R and B. But, I can find something from every genre to love.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:You will find me listening to the occasional hip hop and rap from the 80's and early 90's but never will you catch me hearing anything from today....For the most part, the songs generally belittle women in horrible ways and encourage drug use a lot.
quote:And rap of the nineties did not?!
Iccy, if you're insinuating that the talented Sir Mix-A-Lot would ever belittle or objectify women, then you have a lot to learn about knights.
"And I shall have to ask you to step outside!"
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SoaPiNuReYe: I'm probably the only one here who knows anything about hip hop
Don't kid yourself.
"Kid" being the operative word. When someone starts a post with "Im 15 years old but..." and ends it with "I'm probably the only one here who knows anything about..." it just makes me laugh.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Stuff
Well...except the amount of offensive music in mainstream rap & hip hop vs the amount in mainstream everything else (possibly combined)is very, very obviously greater.
Good try, though!
Edit to add: here, let's do a little experiment.
First, look at the Billboard Top 200. Next, pick the top 5 rap/hip hop albums, then the top 5 rock albums:
Rap & Hip Hop's Top 5: 1) Jay-Z - Kingdom Come 2) Snoop Dogg - The Blue Carpet Treatment 3) Akon - Konvicted 4) 2Pac - Pac's Life 5) The Game - Doctor's Advocate
Rock's Top 5: 1) The Beatles - Love 2) U2 - U218: Singles 3) Nickelback - All the Right Reasons 4) The Killers - Sam's Town 5) Evanescence - The Open Door
Let's do a comparison between the two for offensive content. For the sake of quantitative comparison, we'll stick to offensive language first. Offensive language will include any profanity, sex slang (but not innuendos - so "skeet skeet skeet" would count, but "We spent the night on our backs feeling the wind on our skin" would not), violence, and any obviously racist, misogynist or otherwise discriminatory language. I'll do the comparison using the title track of each named album. I'll even be forgiving and only use explicit references.
RAP: 1) Jay Z - The Prelude: 16. 2) Snoop Dogg - Intrology: 20. 3) Akon - Shake Down: 14.
I think that's enough to prove my point on this side.
ROCK: 1) The Beatles - Because: 1 concrete, 3 possible. 2) U2 - Beautiful Day: 2 (assuming you're juvenile and interpret "Touch me" as sexual) 3) Nickelback - Follow You Home: 8, which includes "slap me in the face" and "leave me here to die alone" repeated twice.
posted
The main flaw I find with bad Rap was demonstrated last Friday night. My office held a holiday party where a DJ played a song where Shakira rapped about her wonderful hips.
"My hips don't lie" she repeated many many times.
My hips don't lie either. They say, "Yo! dude, you're fat. Lose some weight chubby. Just don't excercise us to much."
My next thought was the one where we can tell Crummy Rap (C. Rap in other words) from average or good Rap.
If her hips are so great, why is shy singing about them? If her hips were so great than others should be singing about them.
Same with most Rap stars (and Rock Stars, and Country Stars) who sing about thier Manly Conquests.
Face it, if you were that great in bed, then the women would be singing about it, not you.
It has been my experience that signing about your conquests is a sure sign that you have little or nothing to sing about. And I do mean, literally, little or nothing.
Since then, every time I hear some Shizzle Fo Nizzle artists proclaiming to the world how he is going to "do it all night long", I realize what he and his collection of oversized muscle cars, Hummers and big wads of cash are really trying to compensate for, and I laugh.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Way back when, I thought there was no way I could like hip-hop, and then I listened to Arrested Development's "Tennessee."
Oh, wow. Wow, wow. So much amazing stuff can be done in this medium. (And that song wouldn't have worked in another genre, not with the same gut impact.)
Posts: 132 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: Maybe you just don't like it. That doesn't mean it isn't good. I don't like any country music. And it's very popular. So, some of it must be decent. I just don't like it. I also don't like opera. Personal prejudices can affect judgement.
Erm... trust your instincts sometimes, but investigate if you are unsure. You CAN know that the music you have heard is either good or bad, I do believe that. It doesn't even have to be pleasurable to you to be labeled "good," as long as you recognize advanced or interesting or in any way positive qualities in the music, it is some level of good.
Music that doesn't function on ANY level (and that's rare actually) is BAD. There is BAD music out there, and it is disproportionately represented in popular culture, I think, because the music that is generated by the entertainment industry is not properly developed, done by artists who are not talented enough, and marketed to people with relatively poor music taste. I can attest to this last from my work with teenagers, Djing middle school dances and hearing some of the things they listen to.
There is value in most of this music, in the same way that there is value in anything that represents SOME level of workmanship and an attempt at artistic expression. However, when music is written, produced, and marketed with an eye not for the creative abilities of the people involved OR a genuine interest in artistic achievement, then what you typically get is bad music. It is not a coincidence that breakout artists look so good with their shirts off, or in tight pants, it is because there are a million semi-talented amateurs out there, and some of them are bound to have nice abs. Throw ANY idiot in a studio with a top producer and a big budget for 6 weeks, and you're going to get music on par with most Glam/pop albums out there. Witness the stream of "glamourite" types who have recorded mediocre albums over the years, all of them sound engineered to within an inch of their lives.
Edit: It always strikes me about hip-hop music that the kids I hear listening to it don't really LISTEN to it. It is a common experience for them: I play a song at the dance that they all know, and they get excited and talk to each other about it. I don't think they actually like the music that much, but they have been provided with all the market manipulation needed to insure that they will find positive associations with a particular song.
Kids always talk about Music Videos. They talk FAR more about the things that go on in a video (how cool someone looks, an action, a style, an image) than about the actual song. I think they appreciate the songs because of the associations with glamor, riches, sexuality, their ideas of "maturity," etc. They see the videos, then they mimick the video and associate the music with their own actions, making them feel like the people in the video.
I think we are all trained to do similar things, for instance, even people who have never been to a classical concert understand the culture of the classical audience from other culture cues- reserve, relaxation, intellectually aloof interest, etc. Many of those things are just showing behaviors expected of us, but I think we also internalize those moods and deeply associate them with the music. It's the reason so many people think classical music is for "relaxation," and hiphop is for dancing, when in reality one could approach either style in many ways. We are simply trained to do it a certain way, not necessarily the right way. Taking all that into account I think that people who listen to the really mainstream stuff, especially early teens, are acting on a lot of cues secondary to actual musical appreciation; though they still get enjoyment out of the music, it doesn't promote actual musical interest. It's like a pavlovian response, basic classical conditioning: kids see arousing and evocative images on TV, they recall them when the music is played, and they enjoy the music for that.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Pardon me while I ramble for a bit. When I was in college and we were taking the standard required Music Appreciation class or whatever it was called, we had to listen to certain classical music and opera outside of class.
I was in the library just finishing listening to a piece as another guy finished the piece he was listening too. He shook his head with a discussed look on his face, as if this was one of the most horrible things he had ever done. Not being a music snob myself, I thought I would try to get him to understand his own reaction. So, I asked him if he knew why he didn't like this music? My hope was he would think about it and understand, but he came back with a stock answer like 'it sucks'. I tried to explain that this music has endured for hundreds of years, far longer than any 'pop' rock and roll will last. How could if last that long it it sucked?
It was clear he wasn't going to think about it, so I decided to cut to the chase. I explained that he didn't like it because it was melodic music. It lacked that primal rythmic back-beat found in all Rock style music. In fact, music pschologists have found that there is a very specific beat, a very specific timing that all people will instinctively respond to.
What bothers me about a lot of hip-hop and rap is that it exploits that instinctive response to the back-beat and rythme. The instrumentation, and skill of the musician is minimal, it just pure beat, a machine could produce it. Personally, I prefer guitar bands where skill instrumentation is showcased over the back-beat.
Now don't get me wrong, there are some appealing aspects of Rap and Hip-Hop that, while it doesn't appeal to me, I can understand. In a sense, it is like urban poetry set to a back-beat. Yes, some of that poetry is dark and destructive, but it reflects the dark and destructive world that some people live in. Yes, some of it is homophobic and misogynistic, but that does reflect a real aspect of our modern world. That does reflect the culture that some people are thrown into and forced to grow up in. Not everybody can grow up in a clean cut white upper middle class suburban lifestyle.
So, this music reflects dark images because that darkness is a real part of life, a part many middle class people would like to deny.
Urban Rap and Hip-Hop give a poetic voice to disenfranchised people, and some of it is culturally and socially significant. But the part that turns me off to it, is the minimalist musical aspect of it. I didn't listen to Jimi Hendrix to hear him sing, though the songs are nice, I listen to hear him play guitar, and he was one of many guitar gods. He could do things with a guitar that even in this day and age very few guitar wizards can duplicate.
The back-beat of Rap, preys on our kids instintive reaction to that back-beat, and the sad thing is, kids don't even realize how easily they are being manipulated by it, or how easily they are being manipulated by the dark messages contained there in. I hear that dark message and it tells me how bad things are, kids hear it and falsely think it is a message about how good things can be. They listen and think that bitches, whores, guns, drugs, gangs, and killing are something to aspire to. But I think that happens because their own lives have really given them nothing of equal romanic but more positive appeal to aspire too.
Just a few thougts...such as they are.
Steve/bboyminn
indeed. i have been looking for words to explain these feelings, and here they are. its that backbeat that makes me dislike pop, rap, punk, techno, blah blah. dont get me wrong, im generalizing. there are individuals doing good work in those genres. but not many.
lately i've really been getting into experimental, and prog rock, for those reasons. mewithoutYou, minus the bear, mutemath, dredg. they are pioneers
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