quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: In Judaism, we don't have the "being saved" thing. We do have "teshuvah", which is repentance. Someone who led a non-observant life and decided to follow a more observant practice is called "baal teshuvah", but this is not usually a big dramatic thing, with attendant miracles. In fact, the change more typically comes on gradually, with the person taking on one commandment, then another (perhaps trying to eat only kosher food, then to observe the Sabbath, then to pray once a day, then three times a day...).
But there are plenty enough commandments that no one out there is perfect in their observance of all of them, so there is the opportunity for everyone to do teshuvah.
<nod> It took me about 4 years from when I decided that I was going to be Orthodox until I was really observant without making exceptions. And I still screw up from time to time.
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Frankly, evangelicals scare me. Any religion or belief that requires you to give up so much of yourself to conform is dangerous. And reminds me of a cult.
I might note that the line between religion and cult is very thin. There's a good summary at wiki.
However, the bottom line really is that a cult in common usage is just a religion that other religions (or society as a whole) consider too "weird" to be accepted as a religion. If you only examined one cult and had no knowledge of any other religions, there is no objective criteria for determining what is a cult and what is not.
The reason I bring this up, is that in light of this, the phrase "Any religion or belief that requires [X] ... reminds me of a cult" is in some sense vacuous. Its almost like saying, "This New York place, its so American it reminds me of being in the United States."
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quote: Any religion or belief that requires you to give up so much of yourself to conform is dangerous.
Oh, it gets worse. Here's a quote from CS Lewis:
quote:Christ says ‘Give me all. I don’t want so much of your time and so much of your money and so much of your work: I want You. I have not come to torment your natural self, but to kill it. No half-measures are any good. I don’t want to cut off a branch here and a branch there, I want to have the whole tree down…Hand over the natural self, all the desires which you think innocent as well as the ones you think wicked—the whole outfit. I will give you a new self instead. In fact, I will give you Myself: my own will shall become yours.
quote:Christ says ‘Give me all. I don’t want so much of your time and so much of your money and so much of your work: I want You. I have not come to torment your natural self, but to kill it. No half-measures are any good. I don’t want to cut off a branch here and a branch there, I want to have the whole tree down…Hand over the natural self, all the desires which you think innocent as well as the ones you think wicked—the whole outfit. I will give you a new self instead. In fact, I will give you Myself: my own will shall become yours.
So does every fascist/authoritarian movement ever.
Maybe you're okay with Christ on this one, but doing this with a human organization seems to me to be a recipe for evil and disaster. Or to put it another way, a large chunk of the history of Christianity.
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It's always a bit of a relief to see Christians who truly don't want people to be mindless zombies. I've had a lot of bad experiences with the ones who think we should all be the same and who think we all need the same things from God. It's actually to the point where if the first thing someone tells me about themselves is, "I'm a Christian" I kind of back away slowly. It shouldn't feel that way to me, I know. All I can say is things are better. A little over a year ago I started making a new friend who is a Christian. She's a neighbor and we started walking together 2-3 times a week (until the weather got bad). I always avoided the subject of religious but finally one day I decided that if she were really going to be my friend then it wouldn't matter if I told her the truth about my beliefs...and she was ok with it. We had an open discussion about religion (the first I've had with anyone aside from my husband, a devout Catholic) and so my measure of the statement "I'm a Christian" has improved.
I've always thought that God had to be as multi-faceted as the people he created and that if he created me the way that I am, then he can be who I need him to me and now who other people tell me he is. And no, that doesn't come from the Bible...a book that is a topic for another time. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:I've always thought that God had to be as multi-faceted as the people he created and that if he created me the way that I am, then he can be who I need him to me and now who other people tell me he is.
What do you mean by multi-faceted?
I always hear the 'Christians-as-Zombies' argument put up in discussions of this type. I'm thankful that I don't know ANY Christians that believe the way that some people think they believe.
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quote:I've always thought that God had to be as multi-faceted as the people he created and that if he created me the way that I am, then he can be who I need him to me and now who other people tell me he is.
What do you mean by multi-faceted?
I always hear the 'Christians-as-Zombies' argument put up in discussions of this type. I'm thankful that I don't know ANY Christians that believe the way that some people think they believe.
I wish I didn't know any Christians who believed the way some people think they believe!
As for the multi-faceted bit, well, now you're going to make me get into it, aren't you? I should probably start by saying that you probably wouldn't consider me Christian. I was raised Catholic and spent a couple of years in high school exploring (leading me to an evangelical church where I got caught up in the whole "saved" and "saving people" business for a while). I am not an atheist or even an agnostic. I believe in God and consider myself to be a very spiritual person.
It is the specific nature of God that can get me into trouble if I open my mouth in public. To some, God is nature. To others, he is a person who created people in his own image. And still to others, he has been more than one god. Even within Christianity, God behaves differently in the old and new testaments. Perhaps the people of each age needed something different from Him?
So when I say God is multi-faceted, I mean that I believe he can be all these things to all these different people. I don't believe there is conflict. I also don't believe the details matter. (This is all just personal opinion, of course.)
Where I come into difficulty is in deciding who He is for me. It is for this reason that I choose to pray alone whenever I have a choice. (And when other people are praying in a group I bow my head respectfully and listen.)
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Frankly, evangelicals scare me. Any religion or belief that requires you to give up so much of yourself to conform is dangerous. And reminds me of a cult.
I might note that the line between religion and cult is very thin. There's a good summary at wiki.
However, the bottom line really is that a cult in common usage is just a religion that other religions (or society as a whole) consider too "weird" to be accepted as a religion. If you only examined one cult and had no knowledge of any other religions, there is no objective criteria for determining what is a cult and what is not.
The reason I bring this up, is that in light of this, the phrase "Any religion or belief that requires [X] ... reminds me of a cult" is in some sense vacuous. Its almost like saying, "This New York place, its so American it reminds me of being in the United States."
This is not true. There are very defining critiria that define a cult. I did a huge paper about cults when I was in college, and the whole thing fascinated me. It's my opinion that a religion shows some sign of those criteria, (there are six of them, I believe), but a cult takes each one of those criteria to the highest level. I don't remember all of them offhand, but it involves controlling the member's invironment, the information they get, the people they know, etc so as to limit a person's ability to think beyond that cult.
I have an ex girlfriend that's trying to save my soul and get me on her path to salvation. She's someone who needs a lot of help to make it through life, basically. She's got a lot of mental issues, and had bad things that have happened to her in life. She claims that her religion has turned everything around for her and she seems better off. The problem is, she has disappeared. Everything she talks about, everything she does, everything about her is God this and Jesus that. To the point where she answers simple questions with regurgitated religious propaganda. If there's a question she can't answer, it gets answered with something about going to Hell because I'm not saved. She has taken the stance of her church or religion on many subjects, from bashing homosexuals to evolution to simple things like the earth is only 6000 years old. And this was a smart girl, an honor student with serious potential when we were teens. She used to be a huge liberal in her views, and fought for women's equality. Now she doesn't think for herself, has become a lacky for her church's propaganda, and basically wants to be seen as a zealot or religious wacko.
That scares the hell outta me. I don't want anything to do with that. Yet the way these people talk they make it seem so necessary to become saved. Some of them even make it seem attractive to be part of that. But besides the fact I don't understand the whole 'saved' thing, I don't want to be an automiton or zealot. I don't need to be changed in that way, nor do I want to be changed in that way.
I believe what she's gotten in to is seriously borderline cult. And that Jesus Camp video scares me too, it's got cult written all over it.
I did manage to send her into a tizzy though when I told her I was going to go back to being a Catholic. She said I was going to be stuck in hell with the rest of the papists for all eternity. NICE.
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Well it has always been a tough paradox for me on the one hand,
"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
---
So just because somebody proclaims Jesus is the Lord they could still easily get sent to hell because they did a rotten job representing him to His other children.
But on the otherhand,
"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."
So on the one hand if you really did a good job emulating Jesus, people would be drawn to you, but people would also despise you.
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It annoys me to no end when people believe that following a religion is a weakness. It's like saying you want people to be more open-minded and then proceeding to bash them for not being open-minded the way you want them to be.
posted
I got saved (I was posting using a different name until Hurricane Katrina). I don't know how it fits in with sanctification or the mighty change of heart.
One hymn puts the effect "We feel it a pleasure to serve thee, and love to obey thy command."
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quote:Originally posted by pH: It annoys me to no end when people believe that following a religion is a weakness. It's like saying you want people to be more open-minded and then proceeding to bash them for not being open-minded the way you want them to be.
-pH
Kinda like preaching to people to follow a God that spoke of loving and accepting and tolerance and then telling them they're going to hell if they don't follow your brand of religion.
I wouldn't say people who follow a religion are weak. I think people who can be dedicated to their religion are admirable. I do however believe that some people need religion because they have weaknesses and use that religion to fill in those weaknesses. Which in reality, isn't bad if it makes things better off for them and creates a better life for them.
That's not why I'm looking for a religion or a fath, though. And I don't agree with people who try to fit their needs for religion into me.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: In Judaism, we don't have the "being saved" thing. We do have "teshuvah", which is repentance. Someone who led a non-observant life and decided to follow a more observant practice is called "baal teshuvah", but this is not usually a big dramatic thing, with attendant miracles. In fact, the change more typically comes on gradually, with the person taking on one commandment, then another (perhaps trying to eat only kosher food, then to observe the Sabbath, then to pray once a day, then three times a day...).
But there are plenty enough commandments that no one out there is perfect in their observance of all of them, so there is the opportunity for everyone to do teshuvah.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: For me, "practical" Catholicism is very similar to what Tante describes.
These two posts were very helpful for me. Not an immediate impact, but something that stayed with me and made me think. These posts kinda resonated with me. First, because I totally understood what Tante said about it being a gradual thing, that you work on, you grow into, and become. Second, because what km said. It made me think seriously about my catholic upbringing, and how that was playing into what I was looking for. My understanding of what catholicism is, at least, is a lifelong religion that you grown into and with and takes you on a journey. That's pretty much what I've been looking for. Not an overnight change, or a convenient restart button, or something to cure me of my vices.
So it got me to thinking more and more about my upbringing as a catholic and why I didn't want to stay with the church. I am now seriously considering resuming that faith. While I don't necessarily agree with everything that catholicism stands for, it is at least a starting point and touchstone for me to continue my faith and to grow with. I was raised with it, and a great deal of my morals and value system is based in that religion, it's how I learned right and wrong and personal/family values. And frankly, going back there and at least being a part of a religion and getting closer to God is better than sitting in limbo not understanding what's going on or where to turn.
The other thing I have considered favorably about catholics is that the religion never gives me the willys like some of the more zealous religions do. Some religions make themselves seem really attractive, and you wonder if maybe you're not missing something. There members are really good at trying to convince you to go with their religion. And while I am pulled by that at times, it always throws up a red flag with me.
For the most part, catholics don't recruit. Or at least I don't get that feeling from them. When I was a catholic I never felt pressured to recruit anyone. If anything, they have the opposite attitude, kinda like an exclusive club you've got to qualify to join. Somehow it's reassuring to me that they aren't trying to "sell" you all the time. That always bothers me about the 'saved' people who try to talk to you and convince you to join up.
So I'm considering it seriously. My sister in law is catholic and they attend a church here in town that I might give a try. I'd like to sit down and talk with a priest before I start going again. With lent beginning next week and ash wednesday, what better time than to get back in it?
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I'm glad that you are giving it a try. While you are right about the fact that we don't recruit, we do have classes for people who want to convert to Catholicism or to be confirmed. I mentor those classes in our parish and would be more than pleased to discuss any issues you might have. There are a lot of issues that a lot of people have, so questions are good and I have a lot of resources that might be useful to you.
My email is the same as my user name at hotmail.
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stihl1: It sounds like you're coming to the same conclusion about the Catholic faith that I did a few years back. (I, too, was raised Catholic and wandered off.) After doing my exploring I found that I had more respect for the Catholic church and more in common with those teachings than with others. I don't agree with it all. When I go, I do not receive communion because I do not believe in transubstantiation and feel that taking communion would be disrespectful. But I like the openness and the lack of pushiness.
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I guess what it comes down to is that people who don't feel the need to be saved are claiming that they are already perfect. Or at least that there's nothing wrong with them the way they are. I'm not sure I understand the difference.
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In no way did I infer I was perfect. Nor did I decide I didn't "need to be saved". What I did decide was that being saved wasn't for me, it doesn't go along with the understanding I have of what it means to have a relationship with God and what faith is. That doesn't mean I am implying it's bad, just not for me.
Neither did I say there's nothing wrong with me. What I have noticed is that a lot of the so-called 'saved' people seem to have in common some kind of personal issue, or past problem, or vise that they seem to have solved with their faith. I think that these kind of people are attracted to the 'saved' or evangelical religions because it helps to 'reset' or take over their lives and allow them to succeed in life. I'm not looking for a reset, I've got problems just like everyone else. But I don't want to eliminate those problems with religion, that's why I'm not looking for a faith. I'm looking to grow closer and understand God/faith/religion/spirituality a little more.
I don't think you can say either way is bad as long as it works for you. For me, the evangelical thing is a little scary, I don't like the 'zombie-ism' effect I have seen first hand. I am sure there are moderate evangelicals just as there are fanatics. Either way, it's just not for me.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: stihl1: It sounds like you're coming to the same conclusion about the Catholic faith that I did a few years back. (I, too, was raised Catholic and wandered off.) After doing my exploring I found that I had more respect for the Catholic church and more in common with those teachings than with others. I don't agree with it all. When I go, I do not receive communion because I do not believe in transubstantiation and feel that taking communion would be disrespectful. But I like the openness and the lack of pushiness.
What drove me away was a lot of the rituals. And the usual complaints about the church. And a little bit of rebellion and a need to shrug off years of forced sunday mornings in mass. I really never put together the realization I had above until just recently. Maybe it came with maturity, I dunno.
The one thing I do miss is the kind of 'brotherhood' of the church. The overall church experience and that catholics have. Even when I wasn't in the church, I still felt some of that shared experience whenever people talked about being catholic.
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I wasn't using "saved" in some kind of specialized or extreme sense, just the sense of needing something you can't give yourself.
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I think that more evangelical churches tend to use the term "saved" to refer to a singular, intense, revelatory moment. "Bam! Now you're saved." Catholics tend to think of it as a continuing journey towards a deeper relationship. God is constantly reaching out to us and we get better at reaching back.
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quote:Originally posted by Survivor: I wasn't using "saved" in some kind of specialized or extreme sense, just the sense of needing something you can't give yourself.
I don't think people who believe in it see it as that. From my view that's how it sometimes seems. I think people who have a need for a higher power taking over their lives fit this mode of religion. I don't think, nor did I mean to imply, that people who don't go for the saved version of religion think they are perfect or don't have problems.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I think that more evangelical churches tend to use the term "saved" to refer to a singular, intense, revelatory moment. "Bam! Now you're saved." Catholics tend to think of it as a continuing journey towards a deeper relationship. God is constantly reaching out to us and we get better at reaching back.
See, this is what I never understood. The 'saved' people seem to look upon the idea of what Jesus did and belief in him as some kind of relevatory moment. But to me, that's what I was taught from the beginning. To them it always seemed like a 'light bulb moment', for me it's the foundation of belief. And I always felt like I was missing something because I didn't see it in the same way.
The other problem I had with certain evangelicals, in conversing with them, was that everything came back to going to Hell, God being vengeful, and damnation. I had a very long discussion with a certain evangelical person who had a very fearful, angry message. My main question was, why lead off with the going to hell and damnation stuff? It was my contention she'd catch a lot more people's attentions by stressing the goodness of God and the loving part. People don't want to hear how they are damned and to be judged by someone that doesn't know them. That message is very negative, and a lot of people don't respond to negativity. How many times have you heard from someone that was trying to testify or preach to you about how you've got to do this or that or go to Hell? What kind of introduction is that to God and/or religion?
Which brings me back to another opinion or view I have. I think that a large portion of people want to be afraid. And usually it's a fear of something they can't control or see. Fearing God, hearing that message of fear, is included. A lot of people want to be afraid of God and use that as motivation to be a better person. And a lot of people respond to a religion that tries to put fear in you.
Personally, I don't like to be pushed like that, and I don't respond to that kind of fear. Whether it's conspiracy theories, or aliens from space, or a angry God that's going to damn you for not believing in a certain religion. I don't respond to that. And a lot of what I hear from evangels is that fear message. I don't like that. It seems so phoney, and makes their message sound like something to do just to go to heaven.
When I think of the things that really inspire me to love God and want to know more about Him and understand that relationship better, it's the good things, the love, the positive messages. The fact that Jesus spoke of love and understanding is what makes Christianity believable to me. ANY religion can preach fear of damnation and being bad and an angry God. I think that most primitive people come up with those kind of myths more often than not. Even today people want to make a God in that fearful image. It seems a lot less possible to me that primitive man, who understood little about his world, that lived in a tough hard world, would make up this God that loved his people and preached that love and understanding and forgiveness and peace. Those are concepts that we still don't understand today, as humans, and for men to make that up 2000+ years ago, in a perfect message and perfect way seems improbable. The Christian God and Jesus preach a message that still seems far out today, eons ago.
And for the most part, from what I can remember, Catholicism doesn't try to stress the fear or penalties or punishment or a vengeful God. It preaches a forgiving God that loves and understands and wants peace and love for us. That's what I'm looking for.
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quote:I think people who can be dedicated to their religion are admirable. I do however believe that some people need religion because they have weaknesses and use that religion to fill in those weaknesses.
So are there people who don't need religion because they don't have weaknesses?
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Everyone has weaknesses. Everyone has strengths. God has infinite capacity for addressing both - all aspects of us.
But some religions do tend to focus on our unworthiness, others on forgivness, others on praise, others on good works, others on our beloved-ness, some on snakes, for heaven's sake! There is truth in all of that. Most have a little of everything (except for the snakes). We seek out faith that "fits" us best, the part of an infinite God that call to us. In my church I very seldom hear that I am a sinner (though that is acknowledged) compared to how often I am told that I am loved.
Different sides of the an infinitely-sided coin.
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posted
Humans don't want to be afraid. But they are.
Some religions don't focus on unworthiness because they assume people already know they're not worthy. Some do because they think that you can just tell people about their unworthyness and somehow that'll make them listen.
Being saved...I could take it or leave it, but there is one thing that I must have, and therefore I'll accept it gladly.
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quote:I think people who can be dedicated to their religion are admirable. I do however believe that some people need religion because they have weaknesses and use that religion to fill in those weaknesses.
So are there people who don't need religion because they don't have weaknesses?
No, not at all. Everyone has weaknesses. People deal with it in different ways. Some people have major problems they can't conquer, and it ruins their lives. Some of them find a strong religion and it turns their lives around. Some people don't find a religion at all and conquer those problems in different ways. Some people are just fine and find religion for other reasons. I know a lot of people who have problems that could use a could dose of religion to set them straight. And some of the most together people I know are very spiritual.
I'm not looking to fill weaknesses or holes. I was raised with a belief in God, and never left that. But I do miss having an organized community and/or religion to explore my beliefs and extend my relationship with God. Without all the hype.
quote:Originally posted by Survivor: Humans don't want to be afraid. But they are.
I strongly disagree. People like to be afraid. People want to be afraid for some reason. I think it's some kind of primitive behavior. I see/hear people all the time creating fears and worries for themselves for no reason. Maybe it's motivation, maybe it's got something to do with people needing to feel like they don't have control. But many people do want to be afraid of soemthing. Me, being afraid of going to hell shouldn't be a reason to be good or believe in God. Being afraid of fire and brimstone and the devil shouldn't be the motivation for being a Christian. Wanting to experience more of God's love and being in that presence and understanding IS.
Coincidentally, I have had many people disagree with me on the fear thing, many people agree. All of the 'saved' or evangelical people that I've shared that opinion with have agressively disagreed with me. They talk about how I could go to Hell for not accepting God, that God is vengeful, that I could burn in hell if I don't get 'saved', don't want to talk about God's love, but then turn around and deny people want to be afraid. These people seem to be the most fearful I've encountered. Why fear death and dying if you believe in God and are sure you're going to heaven for that belief? Is it denial? Why fear death if you believe that it brings you to God's presence, and a better place?
I think I should clarify a bit, too. Being 'saved' in the strict sense of the word isn't what I'm disagreeing with. Strictly, it means accepting Jesus and that he died for our sins and accepting him into your heart. I don't disagree with that, it's the basis for everything I was taught about God and religion. What I don't agree with personally, what I don't think is for me is the evangelical connotation that comes with that being 'saved'. If you believe in God and Jesus being 'saved' should be for you. What you do with your organized religious beliefs are up to you, as long as they make you happy.
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posted
Well, I think that humans like to be able to isolate and idenfity their fears. But humans are afraid whether or not they can pin their fear down to a specific thing they can then control. And that relatively formless fear is very difficult for them to endure. It's basically impossible to control.
It is easy to mistake the desire to pick a particular, limited object of fear as a desire to be afraid. But the point isn't to feel fear, it's to force that fear into a form that can be controlled. A "saved" (rather than saved) person might choose to force fear onto a concept (burning in hell) which is already rendered null (by virtue of being "saved"). This isn't an effort to feel more fear, it's an effort to push that fear away into a catagory of "things I can overcome" or "things I don't have to worry about."
To some extent, this kind of mental exercise can be useful, since it can help humans deal with their fear. Frequently, it rises to the point of total self-deception and results in self-defeating behaviors. Probably a lot of people on the "saved" thing you describe fall into that catagory. Since, in point of fact, many of them aren't really saved at all.
But that isn't your judgement to make. It's not even mine Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:In my church I very seldom hear that I am a sinner (though that is acknowledged) compared to how often I am told that I am loved.
That the fall of man is integral to salvation is one of the unique doctrines of Mormonism. Yet so few are willing to embrace it. Look up "fall" in the Book of Mormon index. Not the topical guide, the index.
quote:Ether 12:27 27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
When we come unto Christ, we will know of our weakness.
His grace is sufficient. We are not. "All we can do" to lay hold on his grace is humility and faith. It seems to me people often think Nephi's "all we can do" is being as holy as we can and only then asking for his grace.
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quote:Originally posted by Survivor: Some religions don't focus on unworthiness because they assume people already know they're not worthy. Some do because they think that you can just tell people about their unworthyness and somehow that'll make them listen.
Judaism doesn't focus on unworthiness because we don't believe people are unworthy. In fact, we see overcoming temptation as much more praiseworthy than not being tempted in the first place. The rabbis say, "In the place where a penitant stands, a perfectly righteous person cannot stand."
Everyone finds temptation. Everyone falls short from time to time. The majesty of human beings is our ability to choose right over wrong, and to leave the wrong for the right even after we've messed up.
Even the angels don't have that ability to serve God. They serve Him because that's what they are. Only human beings can serve God by choice. And ultimately, that's all that He wants.
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While remaining perfectly righteous? I'm sure at some point they'd have to be violating at least one kosher law. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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We like to be afraid when it isn't real. I love stories with alien monsters that eat people, but I wouldn't like to really meet one.
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In a sense, that's what I mean. Focusing on a fearful object or concept that you don't have to fear is a way of asserting control over your fear. You get to say, "look how scary it is, but I'm not scared at all."
All angels can dance on the head of a pin. I don't know why they couldn't do it at the same time, though if it were the same pin things might be complicated. I think that the complications are what would make it fun, though.
[quote]Judaism doesn't focus on unworthiness because we don't believe people are unworthy.
Everyone falls short from time to time.[quote]
There is an apparent discrepancy between these two statements. Perhaps you are taking "unworthy" as synonymous with "worthless" rather than meaning something that does not meet a requirement or standard. In this sense, I would have to point out that "worthless" is an entirely subjective quality, even if many people identify the same things as being of no worth, it really is a matter of opinion. In other words, if you feel that something is worth nothing and I feel it is worth something, we have no reason to argue. But if we have different ideas about whether something is worthy, then we can argue.
If (and this is a very hypothetical situation) we were living together, and you thought that something should be thrown out and I wanted to keep it, the problem would be one of whether it was worthy (of being kept), not whether it was worth anything at all. I think that very few people use the term "unworthy" in the sense of having no worth at all. It is usually meant in just the sense of not being good enough.
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