quote:I don't have it in my heart to celebrate anyone's death, however deserved it may be.
Yes, and how many members of your family have been tortured, raped, murdered, 'disappeared', enslaved, etc. in your lifetime, exactly?
quote:I refuse to be branded as a liar because you can't accept my position as one borne out of a deep understanding of myself as opposed to a deliberate self-deception.
I'm sorry that you can't accept that I feel this way, but I've been surrounded by too much death in my life to take any joy in it, regardless of its necessity or its deservedness.
I didn't say anything about 'deliberate'. I wasn't clear enough when I said you weren't trying. Many people (and I have no opinion over whether this is a good or a bad thing) simply cannot imagine themselves suffering to the point of many in this world, who have suffered as I have described. I can't, really, imagine what it would feel like over a period of years or even days. I should have said that instead.
There are people who have been surrounded not just by death, but by suffering, to make yours and mine insubstantial *by comparison*. Please note that careful qualifier. Even if you have lost your entire extended family, there are people who've lost the same, but in front of them, for instance in bloody extended torture.
It takes more nerve than I've got to condemn someone for celebrating the death of a man who ordered that sort of thing.
quote:By the same token, I could assert that your position is incorrect because you "lack the experience, perspective, imagination, or understanding necessary for your moral judgment to have any weight whatsoever on the topic, beyond its weight to you personally."
My lack of experience and understanding of what, exactly? I'm not the one claiming to understand what it's like, and I'm not the one making moral criticism/condemnations. It's for you, the one making sweeping moral criticisms, to offer some sort of perspective, THT.
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I think that it's a wonderful thing that Castro is no longer ruling Cuba. I am happy for the Cuban people, and I don't blame them at all for celebrating.
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quote:Sure. There are animals who are born with an instinct to hurt other people; what makes it so unlikely that there are humans who are born with an instinct to hurt other people?
You'd judge a person's worth based on the instincts he or she was born with and presumably did not choose? If so then be happy that you did not get assigned those instincts!
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I just hope that after Castro's demise and the eventual takeover of Cuba by the Cuban exiles, they don't ban baseball in Cuba just out of spite because Castro loved the game.
Seriously, here is something to watch out for: It may be that the Catholic Church is planning a major effort to take over Cuba once Castro is gone and his "ites" have imploded and been brushed aside. Castro directed much ire at the Catholic Church when he took over Cuba, ousting clerics and nuns, and confiscating all RC church properties. History teaches us that the RC church has a long memory, and is willing to seek its revenge even after generations have gone by. The Catholic church has long been currying favor with the Cuban exiles. Whatever happens in post-Castro Cuba, the RC church will be actively involved, even if behind the scenes.
Certainly, the church can claim justice for its actions. And it could do much good, using its resources to help rebuild the country and its economy. But the true test will come in how Protestants are treated, when the RC church has gained control of Cuba.
Throughout history, it has always been those who are closest to you in beliefs, and differ only on one or two points, who are treated the most harshly. Even Protestants burned one of their own at the stake for "heresy."
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Boy, that's a pretty vindictive set of predictions/statements. I'm not sure why you think the rest of the world would sit still for an RC 'takeover' of Cuba, either.
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quote:But I don't think that the sum total of a person's actions being terrible makes his/her very existence terrible. That's what I'm saying.
I don't really understand the difference you're making. It's a much larger question, but what value does someone's existence have? How do you measure that, if not by their impact on those around them?
I think that a person's life has an inherent value just due to the fact that said person is a living, breathing thing and that said person is a human being.
First of all, only the most misguided of Miami exiles believe they will be able to take over. The fact is, there is more than a little resentment on the part of the people who got stuck in Cuba toward those who managed to get away. Second, the exiles have been gone for as much as fifty years. It's not their country anymore. Whatever they once owned is gone. Have you ever returned to a city you lived in ten years ago? Was it like you remembered? Could you find your way around? The Cuba of old is gone, and those who remember it are largely a decade or two away from death themselves. They may be able to be heavy investors, but they won't be able to walk into their old lives.
As for the Roman Catholic Church, virtually nobody on the island is Catholic anymore. The Church spent forty-five years underground. Mostly the only Catholics left are themselves 60-year-old (or older) women. Beyond that, your descriptions of the Church's vindictiveness, and your predictions of mistreatment of Protestants--of which there are virtually none in Cuba--seem to me to be in violation of Hatrack's TOS. I'll leave it to some Catholic to decide if it's offensive enough to whistle the post.
As for the Catholic Church currying favor with the exiles, how exactly was this done? I'm a part of the community you're talking about, and I'm not aware of this. Would you care to explain it to me?
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quote:I think that a person's life has an inherent value just due to the fact that said person is a living, breathing thing and that said person is a human being.
Personally, I agree. Every person has value. However, I also believe a person's life has value based on what they do with it. I believe the second value can become substantial enough negate, in the sum of that person's value, their worth and in fact make them have value, but in a negative way. An overdraft, so to speak.
I suppose you disagree?
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I don't think bad actions can negate the inherent value of being a living creature. It's not an issue here really, but I'm also against the death penalty (big surprise, I'm sure ).
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I agree with Rakeesh. I think there are cases in which the world as a whole would have been better off if a give person had never lived. In fact, I think this is rather obviously so.
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Icarus, I do know of a fair number of Protestants in Cuba. Interestingly Castro has even allowed some Protestants to conduct public evangelistic campaigns, and they baptized thousands. The Seventh-day Adventist church has been allowed to build a seminary and over 300 churches in Cuba, all in recent years.
Remember the Elian Gonzales fiasco? It was Catholic clerics who visibly gave comfort to the Miami exhiles, even offering to try to broker some kind of deal with the Clinton Whitehouse.
The activities of the Roman Catholic Church are a part of history. Only those raised exclusively on Jesuit-written textbooks could possibly try to deny the direr aspects of that history. Even the Pope himself (the previous one) publicly apologized for some of the excesses of history--things such as the Inquisition.
Look, I can acknowledge that John Calvin had fellow Protestant Michael Servetus burned at the stake for heresy in 1553. Why can't you admit some of the equally dire features of the history of the RC church, which are a part of history known to everyone who has ever studied the subject? Do we correct the errors of the past and move on toward more civilized standards of living by trying to deny and suppress the facts of past history?
I see the possibility of excesses on the part of Catholics when their church will attempt to regain control of Cuba, something that does need to be warned against, so hopefully they will not do it.
What do you mean the other nations of the world would not allow it to happen? Right now, and in recent years, there are multiple cases in Mexico and Central and South America where priests have stirred up their congregations, and sent them to burn out Protestants, both homes and churches. It was reported in the news, but not made a big deal of, since it mainly happened in relatively rural areas. There was virtually no followup. There was no international outcry.
That is why the warning needs to be given in Cuba, in hopes of preventing such behavior.
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quote:What do you mean the other nations of the world would not allow it to happen? Right now, and in recent years, there are multiple cases in Mexico and Central and South America where priests have stirred up their congregations, and sent them to burn out Protestants, both homes and churches. It was reported in the news, but not made a big deal of, since it mainly happened in relatively rural areas. There was virtually no followup. There was no international outcry.
And what bearing does that have on your warnings of the RC taking control over an entire nation, exactly, Ron?
I think you know there's a world of difference between some priests inciting riots and lynchings, and between the RC leading the takeover of an entire nation, prominent in international news.
You've also failed to address many of Icarus's statements in his reply, while harping on history.
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Kmboots: But their homes and churches have been burned in Latin America within the past five years.
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Ron, you replied to statements I did not make, and failed to reply to the ones I did. I did not claim that nothing bad ever happened in the Church's history, and yet you claimed that I denied this. I never said anything about what other nations would or would not allow, and yet you acted as though I had. How about you reply to what my post actually said?
The idea that the modern Roman Catholic Church is a vengeful, imperialistic entity looking to take over countries and burn heretics is pretty outlandish, as far as I'm concerned. Further, that Catholic officials are involved in current events is not evidence that this is so, not is it evidence of the Church currying favor with Cubans. Sr. Jeanne O'Laughlin was actually initially publicly in support of returning Elian to his father. Was that the only example you could think of? Wait--I've got another for you: A Jesuit once bought me dinner. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rakeesh, most of Icarus' statements were wrong and misinformed, as I explained. Wishful thinking is not an argument. The examples of history do constitute arguments.
How much official collusion is there in anti-Protestant excesses committed by local priests and their congregations? That is a fair question, and unfortunately it cannot be definitively asnwered, as far as I know. How much is implicit policy, how much is designed to allow deniability--who can say? I have not heard any official rebuke and apology being issued for these actions in Latin America by the church hierarchy.
A few years ago, Steve Green, the extremely talented and famous gospel singer, who happens to be Baptist, was given all kinds of grief and clear obstructionism on the part of the Mexican government when he attempted to have a gospel music tour in Mexico. I am not Baptist, but I consider Steve Green the best gospel singer around today. He has true operatic quality and discipline, wide range, and a wonderful voice tone. He does "Find Us Faithful" and "Pilgrim's Chorus" from Tannhauser with equal skill. I have been privileged to hear him live. Many people in Mexico wanted to hear him live. What reason could there possibly be for the best gospel singer in America to be hindered in his attmpet to conduct a gospel tour in Mexico, other than religious prejudice and persecution because he is Protestant?
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Icarus, you did what you claimed I did--debated statements I did not make. For instance, where you said: "the modern Roman Catholic Church is a vengeful, imperialistic entity looking to take over countries and burn heretics." I did not say that. The Catholic church is not generally behaving that way now. It would not be politic. But are you really sure there are not hard core fanatics who actually would look with favor on such things, given the opportunity? It is a simple fact that there are people in various Catholic orders who have sworn to do some of the very things you say the church would never do. These people and their oaths and the orders to which they belong are allowed.
The RC church is an entity that seems to maintain its best behavior when the international community requires it. But if you believe bad things do not happen in isolated areas even now, or if you believe it is impossible for bad things to ever happen again on a larger scale, then you are making a statement of belief not based on historical facts.
You also seem to be unaware of what is really happening in many places behind the scenes. Like how was influence brought to bear on the Mexican government to give Steve Green so much obstructionism in his attempt to have a gospel music tour in Mexico?
I object to these things, and I have a right to object to them, because they are real, they have happened. Recently. It gives me no comfort for you to assure me my fears are ridiculous. What I need from Catholics is promises that they will guard against the excesses of the past, by being vigilant in keeping an eye on extremists. Are you comfortable with everything involving the Catholic group, Opus Dei?
Look--please get this. I know that the Catholic church is no different from any of the rest of us Christians--or any of us humans, for that matter. When human nature acts religious, there are certain pitfalls that history shows are common. Given enough time and opportunity, Protestant churches will devolve to the point of committing every one of the excesses the Catholic church ever committed in its lengthy past. The problem is not the Catholic church, the problem is how to be religious--how to worship the Creator instead of the creature (ourselves). Churches and all their institutions cannot save us. Only God can, and only by His means, not our means.
[ January 30, 2007, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I agree with Rakeesh. I think there are cases in which the world as a whole would have been better off if a give person had never lived. In fact, I think this is rather obviously so.
I think I agree as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I agree with Rakeesh. I think there are cases in which the world as a whole would have been better off if a give person had never lived. In fact, I think this is rather obviously so.
I think I agree as well.
Been trying to say the same thing.
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This is what I see when I examine Icarus's points and your responses to them.
quote:Icarus, I do know of a fair number of Protestants in Cuba. Interestingly Castro has even allowed some Protestants to conduct public evangelistic campaigns, and they baptized thousands. The Seventh-day Adventist church has been allowed to build a seminary and over 300 churches in Cuba, all in recent years.
Icarus said there were very, very few Catholics in Cuba. You brought up knowing a fair number of Protestants. Not really a substantive response, Ron. You've also completely failed to address Icarus's points about only fanatic, deluded Cuban exiles believing they'll return to Cuba and take control, or return to their old lives.
quote:Remember the Elian Gonzales fiasco? It was Catholic clerics who visibly gave comfort to the Miami exhiles, even offering to try to broker some kind of deal with the Clinton Whitehouse.
It's simply bizarre that you'd bring this up, given Icarus's other statements about the Elian fiasco.
quote:The activities of the Roman Catholic Church are a part of history. Only those raised exclusively on Jesuit-written textbooks could possibly try to deny the direr aspects of that history. Even the Pope himself (the previous one) publicly apologized for some of the excesses of history--things such as the Inquisition.
Can you show me where someone here has been denying those direr aspects of Catholic history?
quote:Why can't you admit some of the equally dire features of the history of the RC church, which are a part of history known to everyone who has ever studied the subject?
Dude, this is just transparent. First, you state that no one can deny the numerous tragedies and atrocities perpetrated by the Catholic church over the millenia (something no one here has attempted to deny). Then, you criticize people for failing to admit to such things!
quote:Rakeesh, most of Icarus' statements were wrong and misinformed, as I explained. Wishful thinking is not an argument. The examples of history do constitute arguments.
No, they weren't. As I've demonstrated, you spent some time explaining statements that weren't made, while ignoring some that were. I've read your posts here, Ron. You have not explained them yet. I challenge anyone to find me a quote in this thread showing you specifically responding to an actual point Icarus made.
quote:For instance, where you said: "the modern Roman Catholic Church is a vengeful, imperialistic entity looking to take over countries and burn heretics." I did not say that. The Catholic church is not generally behaving that way now. It would not be politic.
So you're suggesting, in this quote, that if not for the moderating influence of world politics on RC, they would or might be vindictive, imperialistic, and vengeful? You're welcome to clarify yourself, but that is clearly implied in this statement, Ron. And it's not very different from what Icarus was suggesting either.
quote:The RC church is an entity that seems to maintain its best behavior when the international community requires it. But if you believe bad things do not happen in isolated areas even now, or if you believe it is impossible for bad things to ever happen again on a larger scale, then you are making a statement of belief not based on historical facts.
Again, show me the quotes. Show me where someone thinks these things aren't happening.
quote:You also seem to be unaware of what is really happening in many places behind the scenes. Like how was influence brought to bear on the Mexican government to give Steve Green so much obstructionism in his attempt to have a gospel music tour in Mexico?
Yeah, well, I'm not really up to date on what happens in the international community relating to live appearances of singers I've never heard of or listened to, in genres I'm not an especial fan of. I must have my head in the sand.
quote:What I need from Catholics is promises that they will guard against the excesses of the past, by being vigilant in keeping an eye on extremists.
I think if you want promises, you should respond sincerely to arguments being made in opposition to your statements. It shows you're willing to listen openly, and so far in this thread, you've clearly not been.
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quote: You'd judge a person's worth based on the instincts he or she was born with and presumably did not choose? If so then be happy that you did not get assigned those instincts!
A good point. I guess, while it is almost true that everyone could be reverse engineered to be nice, lovable members of society, (you go back in time to Saddam's childhood and give him the love he needed or some other cliche) it feels morally empty...
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I see that Icarus said there were 'virtually no' Protestants in Cuba, in a later post. So, my mistake on that count, Ron. You say there are 300 churches and "a fair number" of Protestants within Cuba. I'll have to look for information on that number.
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Rakeesh, you missed where Icarus said: "and your predictions of mistreatment of Protestants--of which there are virtually none in Cuba--" (line 3, second paragraph from the end, in his post of January 30, 2007 02:48 PM)
I brought up the Elian fiasco simply because that was an example of Catholic church officials inserting themselves into a situation on a side favorable to the Miami exiles. That was an example of me responding to an argument made by Icarus.
I think that but for the moderating influence of Western Civilization, virtually any religious group would eventually tend to excesses, given--as I said--enough time and opportunity. It is a universal problem of human nature, not just of the Catholic church, or of Puritans, whatever. It is most extensively demonstrated in the history of the Catholic church just because it has been around far longer. I did not even mention all the rival popes excommunicating each other. Or incidents like those in Fox's Book of Martyrs, which is too depressing for me even to recommend.
I believe I have responded to the arguments posed against what I said. What specifically do you have in mind that I did not respond to? Or do you mean by listening "openly," that I have to agree with the arguments?
By the way, mere assertions and exaggerations of what I said do not constitute arguments.
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quote:You also seem to be unaware of what is really happening in many places behind the scenes. Like how was influence brought to bear on the Mexican government to give Steve Green so much obstructionism in his attempt to have a gospel music tour in Mexico?
To be fair, you are also unaware of how influence was brought to bear on the Mexican government to give Steve Green so much obstructionism.
I know several dozen people who have gone on Protestant missions to Mexico, and the total number who went on the trips I have one-degree knowledge of is in the thousands. Billy Graham held a Crusade in Mexico.
If you have evidence that this was based on the Catholic/Protestant divide, link it.
quote:How much official collusion is there in anti-Protestant excesses committed by local priests and their congregations? That is a fair question, and unfortunately it cannot be definitively asnwered, as far as I know.
How much official collusion is there in the online forum trolling and unsubstantiated bashing of other religions committed by the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists?* That is a fair question, and unfortunately it cannot be definitively answered, as far as I know.
*In case anyone is confused, I am not alleging any such collusion between the Conference and Ron. I do, however, have exactly as much evidence as he does for his allegation that I quoted - none at all.
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quote:By the way, mere assertions and exaggerations of what I said do not constitute arguments.
Too true. Neither does "OMG! this Protestant guy, he once had trouble getting into Mexico to sing gospel music. They're Catholic there. And he's Protestant. It must be anti-Protestant persecution that caused it!"
My mistake was brought to my attention and I acknowledged it already.
quote:I brought up the Elian fiasco simply because that was an example of Catholic church officials inserting themselves into a situation on a side favorable to the Miami exiles. That was an example of me responding to an argument made by Icarus.
That's a response, but you give that response entirely without context to your larger argument. One isolated, and very unique incident in which Catholic officials side with Cuban exiles versus the government of Cuba.
quote:I believe I have responded to the arguments posed against what I said. What specifically do you have in mind that I did not respond to? Or do you mean by listening "openly," that I have to agree with the arguments?
You've responded an awful lot, as I've said...at least twice now, I think...to arguments no one is making. That doesn't count. And it's not an assertion or exaggeration when I point out that no one is disagreeing with you that the Catholic Church has in many places an ugly history.
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Dagonee, I give you credit for even knowing that there is a General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Speaking objectively, there are an astounding number of similarities between the SDA church and the Roman Catholic church--enough to make many SDAs uncomfortable when it is pointed out to them. But we just organized our church the way it seemed most efficient to do so, and best facilitate accomplishing the church's world mission. The Catholic Church did the same. I would even go so far as to say there are probably more genuine Spirit-filled and Spirit led Christians in the RC church than in the SDA church--if only because the RC church is so much larger. The SDA church has an enormous world-wide mission outreach, including hospitals and clinics as well as individual full-time career missionaries; and a huge educational program with universities, seminaries. colleges and private church schools all around the world (any SDA church with over a hundred members tries to have its own fully accredited church school). It outstrips all other Protestant churches, and is second only to the RC church throughout the world. Bear in mind that the current membership of the SDA church is only about 25 million. So we are number two, but we try harder.
By the way, if the SDA church were to gain effective denominational dominance of Cuba, I would not trust it not to devolve at some point into religious tyranny and state-sponosred intolerance of other churches. We might not have Sunday laws enacted, but we might have Sabbath laws enacted. That's just the way human nature is.
[ January 31, 2007, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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I admit I haven't read every single line in this thread, but this one did catch my attention...
quote:...the eventual takeover of Cuba by the Cuban exiles...
I seriously doubt that will happen the way you appear to describe it.
Cubans here in Miami talk the talk, criticize the government and the atmosphere in Cuba at the top of their lungs. If you're not taking bad about Castro, you're not talking at all around here. I can guarantee you that if you walk ten blocks through Little Havana, at any time of day, on any day of the week, you'll hear the word "Castro" spoken at least three or four times, and not spoken in a good way.
But if Castro were to suddenly disappear, and Cuba given back to the people (so to speak), do you think Cubans will suddenly leave the wonderful life they have here in the US to go there? Why would they?
Cubans here in Miami live like kings. They live the American dream and the U.S. Government even helps them do so. Sure, all the Cubans might say that they'll go back, but I would be really surprised if any of them actually did, and those that do would probably do it only for immediate monetary gain (such as establishment of trade, or milk the Cuban people of whatever money they may have, etc...) and not because they want to go back to their country. They wouldn't go back for virtually the same reason the millions of immigrants that came to the U.S. don't go back to Europe; why downgrade one's life?
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With a few important changes in the way the country is governed, Cuba could become a very desirable place to live. It used to be a preferred playground for the rich and famous in America (also for the rich and Mafia-connected, but let's not go there).
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