posted
It's not the abortion debate that's played out, oddly enough. It's the ignorant generalities thrown about in the conservative/liberal debate that are.
You claim that people who dismiss your "wisdom" so quickly are stubborn and closed-minded, when the reality is that we've been debating this topic around here for as long as I can remember and most people have formed sound, logical opinions, which, unsurprisingly, are way different from yours.
If you were less abrasive and pushy (and admittedly uncaring about others) about everything else, you'd find that the majority around here agree with you on abortion (even atheist-types, like Tom and me), which seemed a minor point in your original rant.
Fortunately for those who disagree with you on everything else, debates on Hatrack are extremely helpful to some who have yet to form concrete opinions on subjects. All you're doing is ensuring that whether or not you're right, people will shy away from agreeing with you. Way to go.
And to bring up one of your less obviously inaccurate statements--what do you find strange about people putting away stray shopping carts in parking lots? Okay, so they pay someone to do it. Did it occur to you that if it became (once again) common courtesy to return that which does not belong to you to its proper location, then the need for a "shopping cart returner" position would be nil, and the company could spend that money elsewhere? Do you feel the same way about littering, since there are people paid to clean up after us?
In summation, the only portion of your posts many people are going to agree with is your stance on abortion, but as long as you insist on playing the poor oppressed minority (when in reality there was, what, one pro-abortion poster in that thread?), you're not going to get any backup--just dumb looks.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
My abrasive tone aside, I still find it interesting that people use that as an excuse to latch on to something other than my arguments. For a brief period I made a concerted effort to make my tone less caustic, but it made it difficult to write. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to sound as offensive as I do, it just comes out that way. But if it gives people an excuse to not engage me honestly, then I'm glad I could help.
And I don't know what was innaccurate about calling something strange, since it is rather accurate of me to state my opinion of the strangeness of of the matter, since it is my opinion. But I do realize that I left out that OSC was talking about returning shopping carts that he didn't use. That's what I find strange. You're right, though; at least he's trying.
Anyway, I don't litter, and I return my shopping carts to their racks.
And to samprimary's last post on the other thread: My point was just that accusing me of being closed-minded for not changing my mind, especially in the face of such stunning arguments like "you're an idiot" makes as much sense as you changing your mind because I said you're brainwashed and delusional. Although at least I explained why I think you and JT are brainwashed and delusional. The best you guys could come up with as to why I was an idiot was because I don't know what I'm talking about. And as far as I can figure, that's because I'm an idiot. Anyway, I don't think I'm dealing with Hatrack's best with this one. I hope someone else comes along and gives me a run for my money.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Wait, you're calling people brainwashed and delusional, and yet you still expect people to want to discuss things with you? How does that work?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:They usually start being insulting toward me because they find some of my sweeping generalizations, as they've been called, personally insulting first. My point is, I don't care what people think of my opinions. I mean that I don't think these debates matter, and even if they did matter somehow, and maybe they do, then I wouldn't care about the results (of which there are mostly none< aside from people getting annoyed.)
It's an irony. If everyone would simply admit I was right and that they were hopelessly wrong, then I wouldn't piss everyone off! But then I wouldn't bother posting, either. That's just a joke, but it might be telling. I'm basically posting to get a reaction. I may be condemned for that, but hey, this is a public forum, and no one is required to respond to me!
quote:Anyway, I don't think I'm dealing with Hatrack's best with this one. I hope someone else comes along and gives me a run for my money.
Yeah, until you're willing to put as much thought into any sort of discussion as you're expecting from Hatrack, you're going to be disappointed.
You say you're posting to get a reaction...well, you've got one from me--indifference. The most I can work up is "Well, his beliefs are vague and not well thought out, but at least he's not getting them across clearly."
Personally, I really only get agitated about opposing viewpoints when they're presented in a manner which might actually sway someone to their cause, which you've failed at with flying colors.
Search for some past abortion debates--I'm reasonably sure not all of them have turned into virtual fistfights. Maybe they'll give you clues on how to phrase sensitive comments without making even people who agree with you cringe.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
My little brother is always saying that people should listen to what he's saying instead of how he's saying it. I try to point out that there comes a point when how you say something bothers people so much that they really are unable to take what you say the way you might have intended it, and that it's not their fault for expecting to be treated with the dignity deserved by all human beings and a little common courtesy, but rather the fault probably lies on the communicating end because there's so much interference on the line, so to speak, that they can't hear the words for the "static."
He usually ignores me. Or yells.
Unsurprisingly, he has very few friends.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Frisco: Yeah, until you're willing to put as much thought into any sort of discussion as you're expecting from Hatrack, you're going to be disappointed.
posted
Remember that bit about how people who act obnoxiously while about views that align with my own leading to embarassment and frustration?
Case in point.
("Align with my own" applies only to the desired political outcome on the abortion issue. I'm not even spending time thinking about anything else he said.)
P.S., that topic has been deleted, now. Does anyone remember who started it so I can remember not to waste my time in their threads?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:My abrasive tone aside, I still find it interesting that people use that as an excuse to latch on to something other than my arguments.
Here's a good plan for you if you're genuinely interested in a conversation about this (to be clear, that's not one person enlightening the ignorant masses): instead of insisting everyone set aside your behaving like an ass and giving careful consideration to your arguments, why not simply refrain from acting like an ass and give people no option but give careful consideration to your arguments, if they wish to be taken seriously?
That's if you're actually concerned about a conversation about this. Seems pretty clear to me (and for that matter, to others) that you aren't. So in addition to addressing you on that basis, another tip: it's better not to act like an ass, even if you are one. You'll have a more pleasant life, more people will like being around you, and you'll be happier in general.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:My abrasive tone aside, I still find it interesting that people use that as an excuse to latch on to something other than my arguments. For a brief period I made a concerted effort to make my tone less caustic, but it made it difficult to write.
If you aren't willing to put forth the effort to treat your fellow posters with civility and respect, I'm certainly not going to put forth the effort to discuss anything with you.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: For a brief period I made a concerted effort to make my tone less caustic, but it made it difficult to write. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to sound as offensive as I do, it just comes out that way.
Consider it a useful exercise in becoming a civilized human being.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I should have saved a copy of that thread. I put more energy into it than I have anything here at Hatrack in a long time, and I remember at the time thinking that Naked Valkyrie seemed like the thread deleting type.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Wait, you're calling people brainwashed and delusional, and yet you still expect people to want to discuss things with you? How does that work?
Well, y'know, it tends to work for me, somehow. Then again, I rarely come right out and call people brain-washed in so many words, although I certainly imply it.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
You use those so many words, and the continued tolerance for you is a testament to the kindness and tolerance of Hatrackers. You certainly do not earn it.
I love this place, and part of it's charm is that everyone short of pedophiles and murderers will find sympathy.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I'm with TL. Or maybe I'm just really sick (which I am. Hit me late last night and I feel like I'm gonna die.) Really, I'm just super bored with it. Big waste of time. Kinda fun, though; had it's moments. I'm gonna find other things to talk about.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
No...this is the correct side of the forum for spiteful bickering, as I recall. I'm rather puzzled as to why Card would choose to have a forum dominated by spiteful bickering and mindless fluff in the first place, but this is definitely that forum.
Actually, I take that back. I think that originally there wasn't supposed to be spiteful bickering or mindless fluff anywhere, but once it started they decided to try and contain it here. So he didn't choose to have that kind of forum in the first place, and I understand the motivation for having it.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Well, y'know, it tends to work for me, somehow. Then again, I rarely come right out and call people brain-washed in so many words, although I certainly imply it.
Sure, it works sometimes. There are also a substantial number of people who avoid speaking with you on the topics which you call any number of names. As has been said, it's an example of a substantial level of tolerence on HR, not the effectiveness of your approach.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I am against abortion because I see it as murder. I have just seen to much about the ability of preterm infants' ability to survive relatively early in the pregnancy to feel comfortable with allowing the termination of pregnancies. I just don't think anyone should have the power to end a life like that...even a parent. I personally, don't see it as a religious issue. Other than the broad "thou shalt not kill line" its not something that is covered by religion. I do think that there should be more support for those who wish to pursue adoption. There also needs to be more sex education, and access to contraceptives. As a Christian, I do think abstinence is the best solution, but I also realize that it is not a realistic solution for everyone. Abstinence only education simply will not cut it. People need to be educated about the need for protection, and how to get access to it.
I see the death penalty the same way. Overall, you can make arguments that the death penalty can be accepted within Christianity, but I can't accept it in my own personal morality. I don't think the government has the right to decide to kill a person like that when keeping them in jail would serve the need of protecting society from that person just as well.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
There was an incident in Detroit recently where a rape victim went to report her rape to the police. She was arrested, because of an outstanding warrant from when she was a teenager and put in jail. While in jail, she requested a morning after pill from the prison nurse and the nurse told her no, because it was against her personal beliefs, even though the nurse's action was against the policy of the facility.
Just a story for the heck of it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Wow, that's crazy, and I would think illegal. Aren't police required to provide medical attention (beyond a city jail nurse)? I would think that taking her to the hospital would be legally required.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Survivor: No...this is the correct side of the forum for spiteful bickering, as I recall. I'm rather puzzled as to why Card would choose to have a forum dominated by spiteful bickering and mindless fluff in the first place, but this is definitely that forum.
Actually, I take that back. I think that originally there wasn't supposed to be spiteful bickering or mindless fluff anywhere, but once it started they decided to try and contain it here. So he didn't choose to have that kind of forum in the first place, and I understand the motivation for having it.
They haven't booted you yet, so I wouldn't complain.
Any site run the way you seem to want it run would by default ban you, so....
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I'm with TL. Or maybe I'm just really sick (which I am. Hit me late last night and I feel like I'm gonna die.) Really, I'm just super bored with it. Big waste of time. Kinda fun, though; had it's moments. I'm gonna find other things to talk about.
Feel free...I am prepared to be underwhelmed yet again by both your manners and your intellect.
posted
Well, my bickering is never spiteful. And I don't post meaningless fluff. I did get banned from a forum one time, though.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
though I saw another article (on cnn I believe...but I can't find it now) that had an interview with the nurse who said it had nothing to do with religion. She said religion didn't come up. She said she didn't give the pills to the woman because there is some policy against giving drugs without prior approval, and at that point it was not approved.
It is still terrible though. A person should not let bureaucracy get in the way of doing the right thing.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
That story is disturbing...but I don't want to cry out against the jail nurse until we have more information.
A nurse cannot prescribe medication, and I'm sure a jail nurse has specific rules about what can and can't be given to inmates and if the drug the girl wanted wasn't prescribed by a doctor and couldn't be approved or verified, I can see where the nurse might not have the power to act.
The whole thing sounds like a breakdown in the system, not the fault of one individual. They did say in that article they have a policy not to arrest people wanted for misdemeanors if they've been a victim of a violent crime, but this girl was wanted on felony charges. I'm unsure that I would want police departments to insitute a policy whereby people wanted for felonies shouldn't be arrested.
It's a tough case, and I feel sympathy for the girl. I actually am a proponent of morning after pills being available to rape victims, even though I'm pro-life. I can see the concern that this may prevent some people from coming forward, but again, I don't like the idea of making a policy decision that leads to not arresting people wanted on felonies. Would we feel differently if the girl were wanted for murder?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I'm with TL. Or maybe I'm just really sick (which I am. Hit me late last night and I feel like I'm gonna die.) Really, I'm just super bored with it. Big waste of time. Kinda fun, though; had it's moments. I'm gonna find other things to talk about.
Feel free...I am prepared to be underwhelmed yet again by both your manners and your intellect.
In other words....business as usual.
Are you just being a jerk, or are you serious(or both?) With comments like that, I wouldn;t be so quick to criticize anyone's manners. And I don't recall having my intellect challenged by any argments more forceful than "you're an idiot, and I know because you say things that are stupid." Talk about underwhelming.
Anyway, it seems the debate has survived on the original thread, so I'm going back over there.
"Who's coming with me?!?"
I know, lame Jerry Maguire reference. But I got plenty other things that need apologzing for before I get to that one.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I'm with TL. Or maybe I'm just really sick (which I am. Hit me late last night and I feel like I'm gonna die.) Really, I'm just super bored with it. Big waste of time. Kinda fun, though; had it's moments. I'm gonna find other things to talk about.
Feel free...I am prepared to be underwhelmed yet again by both your manners and your intellect.
In other words....business as usual.
Are you just being a jerk, or are you serious(or both?) With comments like that, I wouldn;t be so quick to criticize anyone's manners. And I don't recall having my intellect challenged by any argments more forceful than "you're an idiot, and I know because you say things that are stupid." Talk about underwhelming.
Anyway, it seems the debate has survived on the original thread, so I'm going back over there.
"Who's coming with me?!?"
I know, lame Jerry Maguire reference. But I got plenty other things that need apologzing for before I get to that one.
You haven't said anything that merits any original thought, or any further effort.
Find an example of me being rude to someone who wasn't a pain in the a$$ first and I will apologizes (to them)...but until then, expect to reap what you sow. I don't know who you think you are, but I know who I see you as....
No one.
No one I care to listen to. No one who has been kind, or friendly, or intelligent. No one who has mattered, even a little, to me here on Hatrack. No one I would care to meet....and I have gone out of my way on many occasions to meet Jatraquero's I had talked to once.
And no one I like here disagrees with me, as far as I know.
In order for your intellect to be challenge you first have to demonstrate some. All I have seen is arrogance, poorly thought out attempts to rehash old debates, and a willingness to insult and demean others based solely on personal opinion.
How's it feel to be on the receiving side?
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you are worth listening to, and can make intelligent arguments without using straw men arguments, without insulting others who don't agree with you. Perhaps you are a great guy, and I would be making a mistake not getting to know you better.
All I know is that you don't seem like any of that right now, and you are hardly new here.
If you don't want to be seen as an a$$, perhaps you should think about how you have been acting, and making your points.
Or you could just blame me....it sure is a lot easier. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Let me ask you this: Since it seems that many people who like to engage in debates on these forums pride themselve in their ability to make strong, logical arguments, why don't you give it a shot? Prove that any of the things you said weren't just the ramblings of someone who is just trying to make himself feel better by trying to be demeaning to someone else. For instance, show me a straw man argument that I have made, or some post where I have exhibited poor intellegence. I'm sure you can find some, but in the process of looking and reading my posts, you might find that you are basing your opinion of me more on the consensus view of someone who, perhaps too bluntly, makes very challenging arguments that people feel threatened by and therefore feel compelled to attack me. I'm a regular Bill O'Reilly in that sense. It's true! People don't attack someone who is not a threat.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Oh, yeah, and I love the smiley face at the end of super offensive posts. It's the iconic equivalent of "bless his heart." I talked about this awhile ago.
"You suck, I hate you, you are worthless, idiot, no one likes you!"
Look, a smiley face!! All those things he just said about me were ok!
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Dude, you got issues.
Let me ask you this: Since it seems that many people who like to engage in debates on these forums pride themselve in their ability to make strong, logical arguments, why don't you give it a shot? Prove that any of the things you said weren't just the ramblings of someone who is just trying to make himself feel better by trying to be demeaning to someone else. For instance, show me a straw man argument that I have made, or some post where I have exhibited poor intellegence. I'm sure you can find some, but in the process of looking and reading my posts, you might find that you are basing your opinion of me more on the consensus view of someone who, perhaps too bluntly, makes very challenging arguments that people feel threatened by and therefore feel compelled to attack me. I'm a regular Bill O'Reilly in that sense. It's true! People don't attack someone who is not a threat.
You? Make me think? By posting a bunch of half-thoughts that others have use in at least 20 thread in the time I have been here.
You...challenging?
You aren't worth the effort...and if you knew me at all, you would realize that I don't particularly follow any consensus...here, or elsewhere.
Quite frankly, you aren't worth the effort I spent typing this reply. Find some concern for what others think, some couth, and a basic understanding or human nature, and try me then.
Until then, why in the world would I bother? I have more edifying conversations with my 3 year old niece.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: you might find that you are basing your opinion of me more on the consensus view of someone who, perhaps too bluntly, makes very challenging arguments that people feel threatened by and therefore feel compelled to attack me.
Reshpeckobiggle, you don't make very challenging arguments, especially on this topic.
I find you threatening only in the sense that you make my advocacy on behalf of the unborn more difficult when you tell those who disagree with us that they must have been brainwashed.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:For instance, show me a straw man argument that I have made, or some post where I have exhibited poor intellegence.
Certainly. Consider:
quote:But look at how bad things are getting. An increasing inability to defend ourselves from aggressors and to protect our national interests. The normalization of deviancy, to include homosexuality and pedophilia. Young girls becoming more and more violent and promiscuous, bringing themselves down to the level of men, all for the sake of trying to attain the same rights as men to have to suffer in work and society the way we've always had to. The slow death of marriage and the restriction and persecution of religion, with the exaltation of athiesm.
Defense: Compare the situation now to that in 1988 and see how badly off you think American national interests are. Non-factual. Homosexuality: Only bad if you consider it a bad thing. Circular. Pedophilia: No such widespread movement exists, outside the more extreme rantings of conservatives. Nonfactual. Young girls: Just as horny as they ever were. Nonfactual. Death of marriage: So people aren't living their lives in accordance with your high standards? Oh well. Irrelevant. Restriction and persecution of religion: Oh, right. In a nation where it is impossible to get elected dog-catcher without being Christian; where the President believes he talks to Jesus; where the religious right is a decisive factor in every election - yep, you're persecuted, right enough. Poor babies. I'm going to have to give you that one. Even a stopped clock, and all that. Exaltation of atheism: Go on, find me an example of this. Nonfactual, unfortunately.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Good job, KoM. I just wanted to see if Kwea was just a rambler or was actually worth his salt. Apparently not; just a bunch of big talk. You actually have something to say. Everything you said, I find debatable, but that's the point.
Dagonee, I said later that delusional would have been a more appropriate word than brainwashed, but I don't think that would change your point. And I wont argue your point of view, but at least I back up my opinion with reasons, unlike some of the others who are so quick to criticize me and my intellegence. And my opinions (about the deluded nature of pro-choicers, and what-not) may be wrong, but my reasons for having those opinions have not been adquately challenged yet. That is my ultimate point. Someone like Kwea coming along and telling me I'm an idiot and not worth his time in a post that obviously TOOK time to write, well, that's borderline pathetic.
(haha!)
Well, I'm off! Big weekend, see ya's after the superbowl!
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:The normalization of deviancy, to include homosexuality and pedophilia. Young girls becoming more and more violent and promiscuous, bringing themselves down to the level of men, all for the sake of trying to attain the same rights as men to have to suffer in work and society the way we've always had to.
Oh, dear sir, you're a veritable treasure trove of nuggets of laughter.
Yep, how dare those stupid queers try and become human? Sheesh, don't they know their place? It should go back to the good old days: arrest those darn fags when they make love in their bedrooms, continue to dismiss queerbashing as "boys being boys," and making sure they're seen by society as unfit to raise children. Screw the message of the Bible of tolerance and love, even for "enemies"! Leviticus clearly states that being gay is wrong. Time to legislate our morality, and then say we're being persecuted when we can't!
And then of course, there are those darn feminists! Wanting to be equal to men, sheesh! Next they'll be wanting to vote! The nerve Everyone knows their place is in the kitchen and laundry room, being sexually pure and altruistically innocent. They should remain protected by men from the evils of men. Don't let 'em make their own choices, let's make them for 'em!
Who's with me? I've got my "God Hates Fags" signs all made up and ready!
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Oh, wow. Did he actually say that? *checks*
Yup, he sure did. Man. Well, I'll just work with the one quote there since I have neither the patience nor the tolerance for the kind of openly expressed bigotry, sexism, and xenophobia to do so for very long.
What link is there between pedophilia and homosexuality, Reshpeckobiggle? Why do you lump them together? I challenge you to find a single bit of evidence that has more support for it than just you saying it's self-evidently logical and rational.
I'm not remotely interested in discussing anything else with you until you demonstrate you're worth talking about these things seriously with. Right now, all you're demonstrating is that you're an ego-masturbatory conservative who likes to "tell it how it is".
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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