posted
That still doesn't imply that the rest of Earth's species could also be found there.
But I get what you're saying; that if another planet with conditions similar to Earth were found, evolution could be expected to direct species in comparable streams. I actually think that's incorrect. Evolution is random and not straightforward. A change in the evolutionary history of a species at one point can take it on a completely different track in the future. Those other 'routes' can be accommodated because there is usually more than one solution to an evolutionary problem; as species diversity on this planet shows.
So in short, if there were two planet Earths in identical solar systems, the species on one would not necessarily be similar to the species on the other.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Euripides, that is my suspicion. More like an educated guess. Complex social structures require more intelligence to operate. People might say "well, ants and termites have a complex social structure, are they intelligent?" I would argue that there is a fundamental difference between social structure like we have, and what I would call "hive structure" that social insects have. The former is more based on abstract ideas while the latter is governed by simple rules and instinct, out of which arises a complex structure.
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quote:Because Judeo-Christian doctrine and scripture is inherently human-centric; their tenants are based on the dynamics of human interaction, and the entire history of the religion takes place on earth. It would take a deliberate reinterpretation to accommodate an alien species.
Tenets.
Tenants are renters.
Otherwise, your first sentence is correct. But your second one is not. Kangaroos are mentioned nowhere in the Torah, yet I know of not a single Torah-believer who has any trouble with their existence. They just aren't relevant.
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Euripides, that is my suspicion. More like an educated guess. Complex social structures require more intelligence to operate. People might say "well, ants and termites have a complex social structure, are they intelligent?" I would argue that there is a fundamental difference between social structure like we have, and what I would call "hive structure" that social insects have. The former is more based on abstract ideas while the latter is governed by simple rules and instinct, out of which arises a complex structure.
That doesn't validate your guess in any way. 'These aliens will have a more complex society than us' is not necessarily a corollary of 'These aliens are just as or more intelligent than us.'
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
Tenets.
Tenants are renters.
Sorry, wrong spell-check word.
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
Otherwise, your first sentence is correct. But your second one is not. Kangaroos are mentioned nowhere in the Torah, yet I know of not a single Torah-believer who has any trouble with their existence. They just weren't relevant.
Kangaroos are not intelligent, and the moral imperatives of religion don't apply to them. Would that be the case with an intelligent alien species?
I concede that aliens are not explicitly ruled out. The evidence for religion being historical/circumstantial constructs will increase however, if we do find intelligent aliens. It will not be sufficient as proof beyond all doubt; nothing can be.
The question was 'will it be a blow to religion', not 'will it utterly invalidate religion.'
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Euripides: . The evidence for religion being historical/circumstantial constructs will increase however, if we do find intelligent aliens.
That's assuming all religions have it as doctrine that Earth is the home of the only sentient beings in the universe. Not all do.
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quote:Originally posted by Euripides That doesn't validate your guess in any way. 'These aliens will have a more complex society than us' is not necessarily a corollary of 'These aliens are just as or more intelligent than us.'
You're completely misunderstanding my reasoning. Because complex social structures require intelligence (assumption), intelligent beings are likely to come from complex social structures. You agree with that, assuming my assumption is correct, right?
I'm not saying that all things with a more complex society than us will be more intelligent than us. I'm just saying that if they are more intelligent than us, then it is likely that they will have a more complex social structure, because individual brilliance does not account for much. Some gorillas can be taught sign language, but since they are comparitively solitary animals, they can't teach it to other gorillas, so the knowledge doesn't get passed on.
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quote:The evidence for religion being historical/circumstantial constructs will increase however, if we do find intelligent aliens.
That depends entirely on whether they have religion/s and what kind.
How so? Unless they know the story of Jesus, discovering another species with a non-Christian religion would weaken Christianity's case, not help it. That would go for any other religion.
Only if the aliens somehow followed Jesus would they serve as circumstantial evidence for the universality of Christianity.
If you mean 'religion' more generally, in the sense that the idea of a supernatural entity is universal, then I agree; aliens worshipping a completely different god would then serve as circumstantial evidence for the prevalence of creator-figures across unconnected cultures (i.e. that the idea of religion is universal).
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Euripides: . The evidence for religion being historical/circumstantial constructs will increase however, if we do find intelligent aliens.
That's assuming all religions have it as doctrine that Earth is the home of the only sentient beings in the universe. Not all do.
I explicitly stated, "to most mainstream religions." Scientology wouldn't be dealt a blow by the discovery of an alien intelligence, for example. If anything, the discovery would help its credibility.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Euripides That doesn't validate your guess in any way. 'These aliens will have a more complex society than us' is not necessarily a corollary of 'These aliens are just as or more intelligent than us.'
You're completely misunderstanding my reasoning. Because complex social structures require intelligence (assumption), intelligent beings are likely to come from complex social structures. You agree with that, assuming my assumption is correct, right?
The conclusion still isn't a necessary corollary of the assumption. But as a guess on probability, yes.
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So what we know as Christianity is actually the product of god's interaction with humanity, while the same entity chooses to interact with aliens by giving them a different set of moral imperatives? Yes, that's possible.
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If we found an alien world populated mainly by marsupials, we might remark how alien that seemed--but that is pretty much how Australia used to be at one time--most environmental niches occupied by marsupials. There even used to be marsupial lions in Australia.
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quote:So what we know as Christianity is actually the product of god's interaction with humanity, while the same entity chooses to interact with aliens by giving them a different set of moral imperatives? Yes, that's possible.
You posited discovery of intelligent life on another planet, in and of itself, being a blow to religion, not discovery of intelligent life with a different moral imperative.
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Religions can be different in what they believe and how the will of their god should be carried out, but the fact is they still believe in a higher entity. (The Microsoft thing was a joke by the way)
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Recommended reading: Kren of the Mitchigai. It's the story of an alien of a race that's biologically wired for evil: that is, they must eat their own children to survive (no other food source); they develop intellectually through eating other adults; their only art form is extracting musical screams from the children whom they of course eat alive.
I don't think the Mitchigai's existence would shake my faith in God. I still hope they don't exist. (To get that level of pure evil, the author had to propose a past of genetic engineering -- evolution alone couldn't manage it.)
quote:It's the story of an alien of a race that's biologically wired for evil: that is, they must eat their own children to survive
I don't see how such a thing is possible. There's got to be a finite amount of energy stored up in the bodies of that race. If they keep eating each other, they'll just keep dwindling until the last one starves.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Euripides: That still doesn't imply that the rest of Earth's species could also be found there.
But I get what you're saying; that if another planet with conditions similar to Earth were found, evolution could be expected to direct species in comparable streams. I actually think that's incorrect. Evolution is random and not straightforward. A change in the evolutionary history of a species at one point can take it on a completely different track in the future. Those other 'routes' can be accommodated because there is usually more than one solution to an evolutionary problem; as species diversity on this planet shows.
So in short, if there were two planet Earths in identical solar systems, the species on one would not necessarily be similar to the species on the other.
Assuming evolution is truly random, the odds that we would come across humanoids much less humans would be astronomical as to be virtually impossible. Human beings compared to other life forms are certainly not the most advanced in every respect, thought overall I would posit that they are.
So assuming we actually found other human beings, it seems impossible to me that if evolution was responsible for both our existence and theirs, that there would not be at least comparable flora and fauna on both planets. Not necessarily even vertebrates and invertebrates (though that seems at least fundamentally necessary if there are humans) but I doubt we would find humans and find out that they have learned to photosynthesis and that they breath carbon dioxide instead of oxygen, and nothing else exists or ever did besides them and their evolutionary forefathers.
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Atheist: There is no god, and Darwin is his prophet.
Will B, that is just sick! Where can I find a copy?
Wouldn’t it be cool if the SETI program finally discovered an alien intelligence in the hope of learning from them how to solve our problems, and the message SETI gets back and translates starts, “In the beginning God crated the heaven and the earth, . . .”
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quote:It's the story of an alien of a race that's biologically wired for evil: that is, they must eat their own children to survive
I don't see how such a thing is possible. There's got to be a finite amount of energy stored up in the bodies of that race. If they keep eating each other, they'll just keep dwindling until the last one starves.
The children eat grass until they reach sexual maturity, hence there is energy input to the system. There's some species of frog in Africa that do the same thing.
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I mean, what if the children aren't sufficiently intelligent to be sentient, or at least rarely so intelligent, and thus the culling only kills the ones that would never have developed into sentient adults anyway? You know, like they're chickens or something, just chickens that happen to be born from the same parents. The ones smart enough to make it to adulthood are the ones smart enough to join into the larger society (which must exist if they have art, even if it's a really disturbing kind).
After all, if the children were smart, why haven't they used their numerical superiority to cage up the adults and use them only for reproduction (and punishing criminals )?
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quote: There is a science fiction short story where a planet is discovered with a marker that lists an important date. Through calculations they figure out that the inhabitants were all wiped out from a star that went super nova, and the light reached earth on April of 1AD (The Birth of Christ).
The inhabitants were all believers in Jesus and knew the star was going super nova as an advent to his birth, and the fulfillment of prophecy.
It has been a long time since I read that story, but I recall it differently then you. I don't recall that the aliens were believers in Christ. I only remember that they knew they were going to die so they preserved their culture.
It was the priest/astronaut (?) who made the connection to the birth of Christ. I remember it as an irreverent story when I read it.
The message to me was we are insignificant to God and He may not be all that nice. Killing an innocent civilization just to herald the coming of His Son. Geesh. It was a little offensive to me to suggest God would do that.
I certainly didn't read that they were willing sacrifices. I kinda want to re-read it so I can see if I missed the boat.
Of course I was very Mormon when I read the story. I wonder how I would interpret it now.
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They weren't willing sacrifices. There is no mention of that in the story. They knew that their civilization was going to die, so they left a record of it, much like the episode "Inner Light" in TNG.
quote:The message to me was we are insignificant to God and He may not be all that nice.
I just looked over the story again, and you're spot on.
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quote:So what we know as Christianity is actually the product of god's interaction with humanity, while the same entity chooses to interact with aliens by giving them a different set of moral imperatives? Yes, that's possible.
You posited discovery of intelligent life on another planet, in and of itself, being a blow to religion, not discovery of intelligent life with a different moral imperative.
Sorry, then I needed to add a qualifier to my statement.
However, even if we discover aliens with moral values similar to our own, I wouldn't necessarily see that as evidence for the validity of Christianity. The golden rule for example, is a sound rational principle which benefits those who practice it. Cultures which respect the principle are more likely to become civilized, etc. Frankly, I don't think anything short of aliens believing in Jesus would be evidence for the truth of Christianity. The Bible still needs a lot of adjustment and reinterpretation to accommodate aliens.
Either way the discovery will only serve as circumstantial evidence, more weight in numbers for or against a certain theory (religion or evolution).
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Euripides: That still doesn't imply that the rest of Earth's species could also be found there.
But I get what you're saying; that if another planet with conditions similar to Earth were found, evolution could be expected to direct species in comparable streams. I actually think that's incorrect. Evolution is random and not straightforward. A change in the evolutionary history of a species at one point can take it on a completely different track in the future. Those other 'routes' can be accommodated because there is usually more than one solution to an evolutionary problem; as species diversity on this planet shows.
So in short, if there were two planet Earths in identical solar systems, the species on one would not necessarily be similar to the species on the other.
Assuming evolution is truly random, the odds that we would come across humanoids much less humans would be astronomical as to be virtually impossible. Human beings compared to other life forms are certainly not the most advanced in every respect, thought overall I would posit that they are.
So assuming we actually found other human beings, it seems impossible to me that if evolution was responsible for both our existence and theirs, that there would not be at least comparable flora and fauna on both planets. Not necessarily even vertebrates and invertebrates (though that seems at least fundamentally necessary if there are humans) but I doubt we would find humans and find out that they have learned to photosynthesis and that they breath carbon dioxide instead of oxygen, and nothing else exists or ever did besides them and their evolutionary forefathers.
I don't think we will ever find aliens who are physiologically human, and never suggested it.
My post quoted and responded to this: "wouldn't it make sense that all the phylums that have existed or do exist here would also be found there", which I think is an assumption we can't make, even accepting your premise (that we find other humanoid aliens) to be true.
My second post explained why I think so: because even if one species in a closed ecosystem is similar to one species in the other, we can't assume that the evolutionary history leading up to their development are the same, and we certainly can't make assumptions about the rest of the species to that level of detail.
quote:Originally posted by Samuel Bush:
Wouldn’t it be cool if the SETI program finally discovered an alien intelligence in the hope of learning from them how to solve our problems, and the message SETI gets back and translates starts, “In the beginning God crated the heaven and the earth, . . .”
Not really. The Christian God is an extremely unpleasant sort of entity IMHO, especially in the Old Testament.
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I wonder if anyone would feel that the discovery of sentient life on other planets might shake their faith in humanism? What if you discovered a race superior to yourselves in every objectively measurable respect, but it didn't share any of the core tenets of humanist philosophy? Would you be willing to give up your cherished concepts lauding the superiority of mankind, or would you label those aliens "evil" and go to war with them?
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Humanism can be a very wishy washy umbrella term.
I wouldn't call myself a humanist, but finding another race superior to humanity wouldn't shake my respect for the rights and dignity of human beings.
One of the most important criteria for being human is possessing sentience and the faculty of reason. I ascribe to an objective system of morality, so unless the more intelligent aliens can point out an error in my reasoning (e.g. that my policy on this issue is incorrect because it conflicts with my principles or encroaches on the rights of others, that the premises of my principles are flawed, etc.), I will remain convinced that my system is true, and will continue to act on it.
So, when can we expect these superior aliens to arrive? Are they your cousins?
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Heh heh, I do rather work as a object lesson in demonstrating the most likely answer, don't I?
What if the aliens don't share your concepts of things like "rights" and "objective morality"? Heck, at least I know what the first of those terms is supposed to mean...what do you mean by "objective morality"? I got the impression that you don't believe in God much...so are you positing some other objective standard for morality? By what means does it possess authoritative standing?
More to the point, what makes you think that aliens with no respect for human morality would sit around and argue with you? I didn't say they would do that. They lack that particular humanist idea as well. I suppose you might think it the only reasonable way to settle a philosophic dispute, but they consider it a simple practical issue. If you don't act as they wish, they might simply kill you, for example.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:What if the aliens don't share your concepts of things like "rights" and "objective morality"?
That's fine, until they tread on my rights. My morality doesn't demand that I convert everyone I meet.
quote:Heck, at least I know what the first of those terms is supposed to mean...what do you mean by "objective morality"? I got the impression that you don't believe in God much...so are you positing some other objective standard for morality? By what means does it possess authoritative standing?
It has nothing to do with authority. What is good is what furthers the life of man qua man (this can be extended to include sentient intelligent aliens, I would think). According to that criterion, good results in happy productive life, while evil results in death and suffering. You've read my landmark, so you know I consider myself at least partly an Objectivist.
quote:More to the point, what makes you think that aliens with no respect for human morality would sit around and argue with you?
Um, nothing? I didn't say they would. So is this an excuse for declaring war on any intelligent alien species with a moral code different to ours?
quote:I didn't say they would do that. They lack that particular humanist idea as well. I suppose you might think it the only reasonable way to settle a philosophic dispute, but they consider it a simple practical issue. If you don't act as they wish, they might simply kill you, for example.
quote: Euripides wrote: Frankly, I don't think anything short of aliens believing in Jesus would be evidence for the truth of Christianity. The Bible still needs a lot of adjustment and reinterpretation to accommodate aliens.
Good point. But heck, the Bible still needs a lot of adjustment and reinterpretation to accommodate humans. That is to say, accommodate how a lot of Christians have acted over the centuries and still act.
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Samuel Bush:
Wouldn’t it be cool if the SETI program finally discovered an alien intelligence in the hope of learning from them how to solve our problems, and the message SETI gets back and translates starts, “In the beginning God crated the heaven and the earth, . . .” --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. The Christian God is an extremely unpleasant sort of entity IMHO, especially in the Old Testament.
Interesting point. I’ve heard a lot of people argue that the God of the Bible is a mean, nasty, cantankerous old bounder. And it just occurs to me that that view of God could be used to support another old argument that man created God and not the other way around, ie. that God created man. Because if that is true, that humans created God, then it would make a lot of sense that humans created a God who is mean, nasty, and cantankerous since humans are mean, nasty, cantankerous bounders a lot of the time.
Of course there is the other possibility: God is actually a really really nice guy and that humans have misinterpreted the Bible to make God seem nasty in order to justify their own nastiness so they won’t have to put forth the effort to let the “better angels of our nature” shine through.
Just some random thoughts.
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New discoveries often force a reshaping of the widely held beliefs of mainstream religions. Remember what happened when Galileo made his discoveries supporting Copernican theory? Accusations of heresy! Censure by the Church! However, several in the Church decided that, just because obscure biblical passages referred to the "established" position of the earth, it didn't mean that the rest of the scripture was therefore meaningless and invalid.
Personally, I believe that asserting that we are the only intelligent life in such a vast universe is exactly the sort of terrestrial arrogance exhibited by the pre-Coperinican philosopher/scientists. That is, the earth is SO important, the entire solar system and universe revolves around us. How is this really different from believing that Earth is unique in producing life?
Would it shatter my faith? Would it be a big blow? Perhaps, but only if I always took a literal interpretation of the text in all of the Bible. As it stands, however, I don't, so it wouldn't bother me all that much.
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quote:It's the story of an alien of a race that's biologically wired for evil: that is, they must eat their own children to survive
I don't see how such a thing is possible. There's got to be a finite amount of energy stored up in the bodies of that race. If they keep eating each other, they'll just keep dwindling until the last one starves.
That reminds me of a fictional alien species I read about once:
1. It reproduced through mitosis, splitting into two identical individuals.
quote:just because obscure biblical passages referred to the "established" position of the earth, it didn't mean that the rest of the scripture was therefore meaningless and invalid.
Actually I thinks its more the Bibles almost complete ambiguity on the question of astronomy that made Christian scholars concede that there was room in Christianity for the Bible and Galileo. I've yet to see one person quote a scripture that even hints at the idea that the Earth is the center of the universe or the solar system.
Interestingly enough had Christians had access to The Book of Mormon, accepting Galileo's proofs would have been quite natural. Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:It has nothing to do with authority. What is good is what furthers the life of man qua man (this can be extended to include sentient intelligent aliens, I would think). According to that criterion, good results in happy productive life, while evil results in death and suffering. You've read my landmark, so you know I consider myself at least partly an Objectivist.
What if aliens, of overwhelming power and mental superiority, gave you a choice between your humanist morality (based on what is best for man qua man) and certain extinction?
How can your humanist philosophy allow you to chose extinction rather than giving up your humanist philosophy? The real problem might be whether giving up that philosophy to avoid extinction would save you, presumably the aliens would be smart enough to realize you were only giving it up in order to save your species.
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What are you on about? My moral system condones self-defence and would have me choose the lesser evil, which is certainly not extinction.
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Depends what you mean by 'give up.' Does it involve murdering other innocents? Genocide of another alien species? That would influence my response.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Survivor, in another thread you recently posted a specific death threat against certain innocent people.
quote:Originally posted by Survivor:
I wouldn't mind getting a DNA test, except that I dislike human doctors and have decided to kill many of them the next time any of them try anything on me.
The possibilities are:
A) You are serious and need to seek professional council immediately.
B) You are an irredeemable jerk with a desperate desire for attention, and need to seek professional council immediately.
I'm going to bet on B. Either way, I want to have nothing to do with you, and will no longer respond to any of your posts.
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No worries, survivor, you can get a DNA test without coming in contact with any human doctors. There are plenty of DNA test kits you can acquire -- then just swab your cheek and send the kit in to a lab. I doubt a medical doctor will have anything to do with it, the tests on your DNA will probably be supervised by a lab technician and performed by a machine . The request to check if you are human is, of course, a bit esoteric, so an appropriate lab would have to be found, but given there are places selling personal genome sequencing nowadays, that shouldn't be a problem
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Hey, I didn't kill any of the doctors last time they were annoying me. I figure that gives me a headstart of about...15 or 20 before I'd even need to dig into a hypothetical future offense for additional justification.
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. The request to check if you are human is, of course, a bit esoteric, so an appropriate lab would have to be found, but given there are places selling personal genome sequencing nowadays, that shouldn't be a problem
