In the video, some of my friends are out in the cold, but ironically, they were pledging a completely different fraternity.
Personally, I think it's ridiculous that this guy came forward about it. They say repeatedly that YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO DO in the pledge process. There were pledges of the frat that chose not to drink or do degrading things and still became members.
But then I think, what's the point of joining a fraternity if there isn't a little hazing?
It bothers me because now my friends in the Theatre Honors Fraternity Alpha Psi Omega are no longer allowed to have the pledges do ANYTHING. They used to wear some silly outfits (completely voluntary), and carry around a bag with theatre stuff in it. They used to have them do monologues or perform songs in the halls inbetween classes (again, completely voluntary). As theatre majors, they would probably do this kind of thing anyway. Now the pledges can't even choose to dress up or do anything that sets them apart if they wear letters or a pin, because it's seen as hazing. Even if no one in the fraternity complains, if someone sees anything that even looks remotely like hazing, the frat's on automatic suspension.
I'm just tired of how over-protected and mollycoddled our society's getting. It's like the new requirement to make kids in teeball wear helmets with a football mask over the face WHEN THERE'S NO PITCHING.
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Also, it's very hard to not do something when you're part of a group that is being pushed around, barked orders at, etc. Even if you've been told before that you don't HAVE to do anything you don't want to.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I never understood the point anyway. What, because you were tortured before you were admitted, you have to torture the newbies?
Sickening.
While I'm no supporter of hazing, the logic behind it is pretty easy to access: shared experiences, especially difficult ones, tend to forge strong bonds. You know that every person in the fraternity has gone through what you have, and has made it through. Hazing is also often designed, more specifically, to unify a pledge class.
It's also a sign of affection. You've been chosen, and these guys want you to HAVE that shared experience. The derision is affection; OSC's even written about it, in describing the difference between older soldiers bothering launchies and Rotterdam bullies beating up and stealing from younger children.
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I don't have a problem with the sort of 'hazing' being described above. It's certainly not dangerous, and really it's not much worse than the stuff we'd do to our drum majors in high school at the start of marching band.
That stuff amounts to harmless fun.
I draw the line for sure where anything dangerous comes into play, like forced drinking games and anything remotely risky like that. Embaressment and the feeling of belonging and achievement that come after it seem a rite of passage for frats, and if that's something a pledge chooses to go through, to get to the other side, then that's his choice, and I don't really have a problem with the institution.
No one has died singing in hallways and dressing up like an idiot. It's the more hardcore stuff taht SHOULD be banned, but it shouldn't all be lumped together, I think that's ridiculous.
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Hear hear Lyrhawn. This paranoia and guilt-before-innocence about fraternities has grown to crazy levels. I'm an alumni of one of the oldest and largest frats (Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia) and we dealt with this all the time. It got so bad that National HQ changed the name Pledge to Probationary Member, trying to get away from the bad press...even though Pledge is a more honorable title.
All frats have their roots in the Masonic Brotherhood. Now some more modern social frats have bastardized the spirit of why these brotherhoods/sisterhoods were formed and just want a space to party instead of fostering the spirit of friendship and common goals/interests.
The foundation of friendship is common shared experiance: pledging and Ritual. Hazing is a perversion of these noble institutions.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I don't have a problem with the sort of 'hazing' being described above. It's certainly not dangerous, and really it's not much worse than the stuff we'd do to our drum majors in high school at the start of marching band.
That stuff amounts to harmless fun.
I draw the line for sure where anything dangerous comes into play, like forced drinking games and anything remotely risky like that. Embaressment and the feeling of belonging and achievement that come after it seem a rite of passage for frats, and if that's something a pledge chooses to go through, to get to the other side, then that's his choice, and I don't really have a problem with the institution.
No one has died singing in hallways and dressing up like an idiot. It's the more hardcore stuff taht SHOULD be banned, but it shouldn't all be lumped together, I think that's ridiculous.
I'll agree with that. Especially since my friends and I used to dress up like idiots and sing in the hallways for fun as HSers. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:That's a pretty disturbing attitude. Especially considering how many people have DIED because of fraternity hazings.
The fact that people have DIED in an activity is hardly a reason to ban it. Otherwise, we need to get cracking on swimming and hiking.
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I've never understood the American obsession with fraternities. I never came across anything like that in Australian universities. It seems like an excuse for encouraging the absolute worst in adolescent behaviour.
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It's my opinion that people who think that only do so because all they ever hear are the bad stories.
Half my friends are in frats or sororities. None of them have anything like the stories I see occasionally on TV about binge drinking and other horrible antics. Anectodally, I think it's the exception rather than the rule. I also wouldn't call it an obsession.
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At my university, when you join a college (that is, if you board on campus), you spend your first day walking around in an academic smock, carrying a pet brick around. As far as I know, this mild 'hazing' process is about all the colleges have in common with fraternities or sororities.
Edit: The tradition is restricted to one college, and the pet brick is to be carried around for a week, not a day.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I don't have a problem with the sort of 'hazing' being described above. It's certainly not dangerous, and really it's not much worse than the stuff we'd do to our drum majors in high school at the start of marching band.
That stuff amounts to harmless fun.
I draw the line for sure where anything dangerous comes into play, like forced drinking games and anything remotely risky like that.
There WAS forced drinking. And the jumping on top of people repeatedly in a small space concerns me too.
Standing around in the cold for an hour doesn't bother me at all, and being forced to look stupid just strikes me as dumb, not objectionable.
Maybe it's because of some widely publicized cases here in L.A. a few years back, but to me "hazing" always implies forced dangerous behavior -- and it certainly seems like it's a common, if not universal, element.
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There is national data on pretty strong correlations between heavy drinking (and associated negative outcomes such as alcohol-related injuries, unplanned sex, motor vehicle crashes, etc.) and social fraternity/sorority affiliation, as well as with certain sports. I can track down the data if it would actually make a difference to someone, but I won't spend the time just for fun.
Mind you, that doesn't mean all social fraternities or sororities (or all of those associated sports) have people who drink more. It's just a marked overall trend with respect to the group who is not so affiliated.
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: They say repeatedly that YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO DO in the pledge process.
But there can be a difference between implicit and explicit rules, and there is a drive to maintain separate rules for issues of plausible deniability.
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Edited to add: Pointing this sort of thing out sometimes seems to lead people to believe it is intended to imply there is no individual choice or individual responsibility. Far from it. It is merely intended to imply that just saying "you don't have to do this" doesn't mean there aren't also other unacknowledged (and sometimes quite strong) pressures brought to bear.
Doesn't claim anything about the individual -- just attempts to clarify the characterization of the group forces. That is relevant when the claim is being made that there were no such forces being brought to bear on the individual, merely because there were no explicitly acknowledged forces.
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I think hazing is completely stupid, but minor stuff like dressing up and singing ridiculously is not so bad. Idiotic things that involve excessive drinking and molestation on the other hand make no sense to me. There's no way I'd want to be in a group that things I should debase myself before I can join it.
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I am not a big fan of the whole greek system. At best, it is a distraction from academics (okay, so are a lot of things) and creates a sense of dividedness (which would probably exist anyway). Much of the time, however, they celebrate a lifestyle of more or less continous druken origies which make ancient Bacchic rites look tame.
I don't surport outright bans and fraternities and sororities, but I am inclined to think that a low rate of greek life is a mark of a good school.
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I just want to go back to the last point in the OP - they make them wear football helmets in TEEBALL????Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I just want to go back to the last point in the OP - they make them wear football helmets in TEEBALL????
Saw it with my own eyes. It's required for all parks&rec leagues in the county until high school ball (when the pitching actually becomes dangerous)
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I think the biggest problem is how far the Greek system has deviated from its initial purpose: back in the 1820's, concerned students started organizations to support the Greek independence movement.
I suppose "Bacchanalia Lite" was a natural evolution...
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: Right. The Greek system used to be about brotherhood and about motivated people making connections to use later in life.
That's pretty much dead now.
My school has no Greek Life, so I have no first-hand experience with them, but my Dad has some pretty amazing stories about hazing experiences. However, he is also still close friends with many many of his fellow fraternity members to the point where they have annual parties and an alumni softball team that plays at the college.
I also don't think that fraternities are the root of the problem. There is probably a high correlation between being a member of a fraternity and level of participation in these "drunken orgies" that have been mentioned, but I really doubt it is a causal relationship at all. People who want to do that sort of thing will find other people who want to as well, and regardless of whether they call their organization a fraternity or simply a group of friends that like to party hard, the situations that result are going to be the same. Condemning Greek Life because people take it to an extreme sometimes is overkill.
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: Right. The Greek system used to be about brotherhood and about motivated people making connections to use later in life.
That's pretty much dead now.
I have to happily disagree. I'm still connected with all my old Brothers and I go to my Alma Mater to this day to assist with the Ritual and initiation of new members.
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quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I think the biggest problem is how far the Greek system has deviated from its initial purpose: back in the 1820's, concerned students started organizations to support the Greek independence movement.
I suppose "Bacchanalia Lite" was a natural evolution...
While a noble cause (long live Constantinople!) as far as I know fraternities began in 1874 with Gamma Phi Beta and in 1898 with Phi Mu Alpha. The Greek letters were used as a link to the classical past of learning and also for spiritual/mythological reasons. The early founders of frats were influenced by the Masons if not Masons themselves and they brought the trappings and rituals with them.
[edit] After a little online searching it seems the first greek-letter society actually began in 1776! Way earlier than I thought.
[ March 10, 2007, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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There WAS forced drinking. And the jumping on top of people repeatedly in a small space concerns me too.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm still connected with all my old Brothers and I go to my Alma Mater to this day to assist with the Ritual and initiation of new members.
