quote:I have no doubt that their actions are heavily influenced by religious indoctrination. Indeed we can look at cases of the 9/11 terrorists who spent a lot of time in the United States before their attacks or homegrown Islamic radicals in Canada and Europe, to demonstrate that exposure and eduction is no panacea for religious indoctrination.
quote:... (paraphrase: if they were Western educated) they're pretty much (as in realistically rather than say theoretically in an ideal case) a lost cause as far as argumentation and persuasion.
quote:I guess what I'm trying to say in a very-long winded way, is that if there are no atheists in foxholes, it is doubly true that there are no atheist suicide bombers.
quote:The question really becomes, how can you convince these people that their religion is wrong?
quote:How can we possibly convince suicide bombers that their religion is wrong in condoning and rewarding *murder*
In case anyone skips the previous page, there are the pertinent quotes.
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So you don't think we should try to convince Islamic suicide bombers that their religion* is wrong?
*It's not perfectly clear whether or not Mucus is saying the one or the other, but it seems to me that Mucus is saying that an interpretation that supports suicide bombing and murdering civilians is wrong.
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quote:Originally posted by camus: While I do not believe anyone can be fundamentally evil nor beyond redemption, how do you dissuade without the use of force someone that truly believes that it is honorable to sacrifice the lives of a few innocent people for the good of the many, and who has the means to carry that out?
Perhaps persuading them with words and good examples that perhaps what they have been told is evil, perhaps is not?
Not a big fan of force, but I don't think your approach will work either.
I may be sympathetic to the view that the leaders may be manipulative and coldly calculating when they send out these suicide bombers, maybe.. However, if as Lisa says that these people have been educated in universities and Western environments, they're pretty much (as in realistically rather than say theoretically in an ideal case) a lost cause as far as argumentation and persuasion.
The bigger problem are the suicide bombers themselves. Given the information in this thread, news, portrayals of the suicide bombers in their own words, and so forth, I have no doubt that their actions are heavily influenced by religious indoctrination. Indeed we can look at cases of the 9/11 terrorists who spent a lot of time in the United States before their attacks or homegrown Islamic radicals in Canada and Europe, to demonstrate that exposure and eduction is no panacea for religious indoctrination. Indeed, the very origin of the concept of religiously motivated Assassins (from Hashshashin) has a long history in Islam/the Middle East.
Even in other examples, if you look at the zeal demonstrated by Japanese kamikaze pilots or Nazi pilots in similar airplanes, their degree of indoctrination can only be described as religious. You need that level of faith and righteousness to give up your own life in such a manner.
I guess what I'm trying to say in a very-long winded way, is that if there are no atheists in foxholes, it is doubly true that there are no atheist suicide bombers.
The question really becomes, how can you convince these people that their religion is wrong? The great irony of this thread is that we have Lisa railing against suicide bombers that kill maybe 10 to 100 people at a time, saying that they are "absolutely fundamentally evil." Meanwhile, as demonstrated in a recent thread, her own religion forces her to view an act of genocide of thousands (or more) as morally justified, indeed, required.
How can we possibly convince suicide bombers that their religion is wrong in condoning and rewarding *murder*, given our limited contact and communication, when we can't even convince people that we have much more contact with that *genocide * is wrong?
I do not see any substance to your argument that my way would not work. Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and an older Malcolm X all used my method. It didn't convince everyone but it got the wheels moving.
Suicide bombers do not view the civilians they kill as human, they are taught to dehumanize them so much that it becomes possible for them to want to kill them even at the cost of their lives.
These suicide bombers are just like children who are taught to hate something, and grow into adulthood bearing that burden on their shoulders.
Israel has done many many things to try and treat the Palestinians humanely. What do the leaders of the terrorists tell their disciples? "Its just a trick from the Jewish Satan to lull us into compromising our standards, they will stab us in the back once our guard is down, we must not relent!"
You must attack that belief that those they are seeking to destroy also seek to destroy them. You must make sure that those who seek to destroy you see more and more the nobility inside you, this will cause them to see their leaders as the monsters, not you.
You stand and ask for peace, if they molest you, you take it without complaint. If they hurt you even unto death, you remain peaceful until the end. Another man steps up to take your place, and sue for peace, your enemies are not as willing to hurt him because you are not acting as they had been told you would. Their sense of decency is already telling them that what they have done is evil. Say they somehow conjure up the courage to kill the 2nd man. A third stands up to take his place, and by then its no longer a question of who is acting as a human being and who is acting as a monster.
Men will start to leave saying, "I won't be a part of this slaughter." Support wanes, and its effect snowballs.
I only wish suicide bombers could not kill instantaneously, and that their victims would all have a chance to tell a would be bomber their stories, and to have a chance to ask for mercy or forgive him.
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I'd be surprised if the situation is solved anytime soon without third party troops coming in as a security force. Whether it's the US, or a Middle Eastern force, or a combination of the two.
If both sides end up with a sustainable country, with realistic, defensible borders, and there's a few years of peacekeeping by a third party that the insurgents are hesitant to attack and the Israelis trust enough to not rock the boat by taking things into their own hands, and if the money keeps flowing (and that same third party ensures it goes where it's intended), I think they could make some real strides, real quick.
Of course, that's a lot of ifs. Still I don't think it's impossible.
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Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation. The way to stifle the activity is to diffuse the desperation. So far there are very few instances of any nation successfully managing to accomplish that. Currently, Ireland seems to be making the most progress of the groups in our most recent century or so.
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Ireland has made remarkable process from what I've read recently. A power sharing government, the IRA possibly on the verge of disarmament. The problem is that there's no one size fits all solutiont to terrorist grievances.
Palestine/Israel seems to only have three options. Either you do what is going on now, which is Israel mostly restraining itself at the demand of the world body whilst continual terrorist attacks are lobbed at them from Gaza and such, or you give them what they want, or you do what Lisa has suggested in the past and you force march them to the border then drop the iron curtain.
I think the Palestinians are slowly moving towards peace, but maybe too slowly, slower than that world can accept, but I don't know how you'd speed them up. It's almost a good thing that they are in charge of the Palestinian government. If they had been left out of the discussions of peace and a Fatah was allowed to do all the bargaining, you'd still have a lot of trouble after it was all over. But they are in control now, as was the will of the people. They do more for the Palestinian people, civil service wise, than Fatah ever did (Fatah being the party that funneled millions of dollars into a black hole). And progressive elements in Hamas are trying to inch them closer to recognizing Israel and changing their charter so it doesn't require Israel's destruction. They realize that doing so is the only way to achieve real lasting peace, so they push.
Generally I don't think you can really force terrorists to do much of anything. You either eliminate them Medieval style, or you wait them out and convince them to try another course. The middle ground gets you Iraq.
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Why are you so sure about that? Just because it's "common knowledge"? Or because you can't imagine anything else that would cause someone to behave that way?
If you're out hunting, and you go to shoot an animal, and you realize that your gun isn't working, is it desperation that leads you to pull a different weapon and shoot the animal with that instead? I'm assuming that the animal isn't charging you, or anything. It's just sitting around in a pizza parlor or dancing at a disco, or shopping for vegetables in an open air market, and doesn't even know you're there.
That's what they're doing. Attacking us frontally doesn't work, for any number of reasons. But desperation would be if we were in the process of attacking them. It's not desperation when it's simply a matter of them wanting what we have. There's no desperation here; no urgency. Just what they want, and they think that doing this will get them what they want.
Basically, they're willing to commit mass murder, and even through their lives away, out of greed, envy, jealousy and hate. That's not desperation; that's evil.
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quote:Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
On the face of it, this does not seem to bear out the idea many suicide bombers hold, that they ascend straight to heaven after dying, while taking many hated enemies along with them.
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Lyrhawn, the Palestinian and Israeli leaders just recently agreed to meet every other week in an effort to hash out some workable relations. The US has agreed to give the Palestinian government some money to help it pay for some basic necessities (like workers' salaries). Steps are being made, but you are correct that Ireland's solution is not a one-size-fits-all. I was more using Ireland as an example of one of the few places where there was not only efforts, but what looks to be results that will last. I don't know if Gaza and the West bank will follow suit in the foreseeable future, but even if it did that would only be two instances in over a century where a government (or part of a government, or group of governments) successfully reconciled with an enemy willing to die fighting them.
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Why are you so sure about that? Just because it's "common knowledge"? Or because you can't imagine anything else that would cause someone to behave that way?
Behave what way? Do you understand what I meant when I said "cultivated desperation"?
quote:If you're out hunting, and you go to shoot an animal, and you realize that your gun isn't working, is it desperation that leads you to pull a different weapon and shoot the animal with that instead? I'm assuming that the animal isn't charging you, or anything. It's just sitting around in a pizza parlor or dancing at a disco, or shopping for vegetables in an open air market, and doesn't even know you're there.
I do believe that this is the first time I've seen someone use reversed dehumanization as an argument tactic that wasn't part of some speech from some organization.
quote:That's what they're doing. Attacking us frontally doesn't work, for any number of reasons. But desperation would be if we were in the process of attacking them. It's not desperation when it's simply a matter of them wanting what we have. There's no desperation here; no urgency. Just what they want, and they think that doing this will get them what they want.
There's no desperation and no urgency to you, as far as you can tell. Since I'm not going to fall into the rhetorical trap of arguing who's the aggressor and who's the victim in this situation, all I can reply with is that just because you don't conceive of it does not make it reality for someone else.
quote:Basically, they're willing to commit mass murder, and even through their lives away, out of greed, envy, jealousy and hate. That's not desperation; that's evil.
Well, since you've already decided, we don't have to really argue about it, do we? Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Yup, and the cultivation is being done by radical Islam and its clerics.
Example:"Palestinian TV Music Video: Child Praises Suicide Bomber Mom & Will Follow Her Steps"
It has been cultivated by many different groups in different areas for different reasons. It has even happened in America, with abortion clinics as an example. Once again, the techniques have been different and the environment completely different, but something impressed in each person who performed the act that such a thing was not only a viable alternative, but the viable alternative. It's not always going to be the same thing. One day it's a speaker at a rally, the next day it's a flyer passed around, the next day it's a commercial, the next day it's a radio spot. I'm not arguing that what you point out isn't monstrous, I'm arguing that there is enough monstrosity to go around, and I can't think of a first world nation who could justifiably claim superiority unless one is willing to accept some hierarchy of monstrosity that allows for "different from me" to equal "more evil."
Good catch on the emphasis, though.
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Good point. I definitely agree with you that I can't think of a first world nation who could (and/or should) justifiably claim superiority." Your post shows me that you are eloquent enough to explain your position w/o personal jabs and disparaging remarks toward other posters. Well thought out arguments work much better. Now Im going to go do yard work and cultivate my garden. Have a good afternoon/evening.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Why are you so sure about that? Just because it's "common knowledge"? Or because you can't imagine anything else that would cause someone to behave that way?
Behave what way? Do you understand what I meant when I said "cultivated desperation"?
I think so. You're implying that the leaders are keeping the average guy on the street in a state of desperation so that he'll be willing to engage in such atrocities. I disagree.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:If you're out hunting, and you go to shoot an animal, and you realize that your gun isn't working, is it desperation that leads you to pull a different weapon and shoot the animal with that instead? I'm assuming that the animal isn't charging you, or anything. It's just sitting around in a pizza parlor or dancing at a disco, or shopping for vegetables in an open air market, and doesn't even know you're there.
I do believe that this is the first time I've seen someone use reversed dehumanization as an argument tactic that wasn't part of some speech from some organization.
Funny what happens when someone is being honest, and not trying to engage in rhetorical tricks.
Then again, most people know that analogies explicitly do not include the concretes. Had I analogized the Arabs to animals, I would not have been calling them animals, but dishonest or ignorant people would have claimed that I was. In this case, I wasn't calling us animals, either. It's an analogy. Go and look it up.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:That's what they're doing. Attacking us frontally doesn't work, for any number of reasons. But desperation would be if we were in the process of attacking them. It's not desperation when it's simply a matter of them wanting what we have. There's no desperation here; no urgency. Just what they want, and they think that doing this will get them what they want.
There's no desperation and no urgency to you, as far as you can tell.
Nor as far as you can tell. You're simply positing it. And claiming it as a matter of bald fact. "Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation." How do you know?
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Since I'm not going to fall into the rhetorical trap of arguing who's the aggressor and who's the victim in this situation,
Because God forbid such a distinction should be made. The moment we stop insisting on moral equivalency (and damn the facts), we might actually be faced with some difficult decisions.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: all I can reply with is that just because you don't conceive of it does not make it reality for someone else.
And just because you do conceive it doesn't make it reality for someone else.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:Basically, they're willing to commit mass murder, and even through their lives away, out of greed, envy, jealousy and hate. That's not desperation; that's evil.
Well, since you've already decided, we don't have to really argue about it, do we?
Pot, I'd like you to meet Kettle. He's black, too.
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Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
Pretty sure that Lisa hates that Palestinians are to any degree systematically trying to violently remove her people from their country.
I am quite certain that if to a reasonable degree Palestinians did not attack Israelis she would be happy to live next door to them.
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
Justa, can I ask your background? We all know that Lisa is a very nationalistic Israeli, and what she believes comes from direct interaction with the forces being argued about here. Where do your ideas come from?
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Pretty sure that Lisa hates that Palestinians are to any degree systematically trying to violently remove her people from their country.
I am quite certain that if to a reasonable degree Palestinians did not attack Israelis she would be happy to live next door to them.
Yes, and I've had people say to me, point blank: "it's not that I hate black people, it's that I can't stand niggers."
There is a certain ground where I refuse to tread. Lisa is currently standing squarely in it. I'm not implying Lisa is a racist, but I will say that racism also stands on that soil. I know she feels justified in her stance, and I neither wish to challenge that nor debate her justifications. There are problems with that which go beyond the futility of such an exercise, but some of those problems are not really up for discussion.
quote:Originally posted by airmanfouor: Justa, can I ask your background? We all know that Lisa is a very nationalistic Israeli, and what she believes comes from direct interaction with the forces being argued about here. Where do your ideas come from?
I really don't see how that is going to change the usefulness of the discussion. Establishing relevance from that sort of position is one of the parts of a discussion like this that I would rather avoid. While useful in social topics, it could only serve as being divisive in this kind of topic.
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
Pretty sure that Lisa hates that Palestinians are to any degree systematically trying to violently remove her people from their country.
I am quite certain that if to a reasonable degree Palestinians did not attack Israelis she would be happy to live next door to them.
Amen. Other than the terrorism and support for terrorism, they're good people. Of course, that's like saying that Hitler painted lovely pictures. It may be true, but the bad makes it very hard to really appreciate the good.
I think Jutsa Notha Name would rather play his ad hominem games than address this seriously. He can make blanket statements that have no basis, and when I object to them, he says, "Well, you're a poopy-head, so I don't want to discuss it with you." It's not very mature, but whatever.
The bottom line is, he can make a bald statement about desperation, and it cannot be questioned. And anyone questioning it must have his or her honesty or humanity called into question. Those are the tactics of a thug.
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Interestingly, Kranky agreed with me but you don't see Lisa tearing into him for agreeing.
You go ahead and play the victim, Lisa. However, you are the only poster in this thread who has previously stated openly that genocide is okay if it is justified. I've watched previous threads on this topic where you actually drove people to the point where they would no longer discuss the topic here. Whine and moan all you want, but I have no desire for a replay of events.
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quote:In case anyone skips the previous page, there are the pertinent quotes.
Although the thread didn't go down that path it could have done, for the sake of honesty I'd like to say that I think you missed one of an important part of what Mucus said:
quote:Even in other examples, if you look at the zeal demonstrated by Japanese kamikaze pilots or Nazi pilots in similar airplanes, their degree of indoctrination can only be described as religious. You need that level of faith and righteousness to give up your own life in such a manner.
He does not limit his condemnation to the religious, only to those who have a religious-like zeal, something that does arise more often within religions. It is the higher ideal and the blind faith to fulfill it that is the problem.
I like the "cultivated desperation" quite a bit, but I'd still like to elaborate on my own ideas.
I believe that suicide bombers begin as desperate, disillusioned, idealistic, possibly slightly obsessive people- or some combination of the factors. (The last arises merely out of a speculation about the fact that clearly not everyone becomes a suicide bomber). Poverty I do not think is a factor; many suicide bombers come from middle class or wealthy families.
Whether they are educated religiously in the Middle East or in Western Europe as atheists, it does not matter. I think that it is more that at some point in his or her life the person, who may feel that he or she has been missing something- a purpose, an ideal- meets someone or reads something that is like a spark. To a desperate or lonely person, a friend, a belief or a purpose- if it is looking after cats or following a religious/zealous movement- can be something that makes the world come alive.
When we think about suicide bombers we often think about the death and destruction they bring with them and we ask "how can they kill so many people?" I think we should remember that they are suicide bombers. They do not have to live with themselves. When they press the deteonator, their life ends. It is almost as if it never happened.
And they are told they will get glory, recognition- in heaven and on earth. And it is true. Has anyone heard the name of a suicide bomber before he or she kills? Rarely. Those with the power to make themselves heard may carry the same ideals but they do not have the same desperation because they are already recognised. They are leaders of a community with many friends, power, influence. It is my belief that a suicide bomber has much fewer of these things and even if he or she does have a family, children, a wife or husband, friends, there has possibly always been a gulf which only the promise of glory and purpose can fill.
I think that we should think of suicide bombers more often not as serial killers, who go from person to person, premeditatively attempting to get away with it, but more as people who simply commit suicide.
Of course, this should not be interpreted as an excuse or a way to not call them murderers and killers; they are. However, we need to remember when thinking about their motivations that they are committing suicide.
We are all familiar with copycat murders and copycat suicides. Combine the two. Add what amounts to one of those sites that encourages suicide.
In my opinion, it is the person who controls and encourages the suicide, who runs the site if you will, who is the serial killer at heart, who can truly hold the zealous, quasi-religious ideals up above everything else.
Aside from everything though, I believe that no one suicide bomber, or even the controller or encourager of them, has the same motivation. They are all merely assignment themselves to the same ideal in order to fulfill individual or idealistic needs.
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quote:In my opinion, it is the person who controls and encourages the suicide, who runs the site if you will, who is the serial killer at heart, who can truly hold the zealous, quasi-religious ideals up above everything else.
This part I agree with.
quote:I think that we should think of suicide bombers more often not as serial killers, who go from person to person, premeditatively attempting to get away with it, but more as people who simply commit suicide.
Of course, this should not be interpreted as an excuse or a way to not call them murderers and killers; they are. However, we need to remember when thinking about their motivations that they are committing suicide.
This I do not, at least not with regard to the suicide bombers in Israel/Palestine or Iraq.
Those (the ones in Israel/Palestine and Iraq) definitely start disillusioned and idealistic, however they don't have to start out desperate. That is ingrained in them after they are convinced that not only are they the victim, but that they are the victim with teeth. It is pounded through rhetoric that their 'kind' (be it Muslim, Palestinian, Iraqi 'freedom fighter', and so on) is at the edge of the maw, backed up to the edge by the beast (the enemy), and even with the inevitability of their individual destruction (and this inevitability is important) that they can strike the beast a blow.
From interviews with anonymous handlers (who coach and keep the person focused on the target), it seems that inevitability and that blow are the key. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a mortal blow, because their cause is just and the more targets that are hit the weaker the enemy's resolve will be. It is righteous fury and individual defeatism, whipped into a calculated frenzy meant to take what is assumed to be an inevitable meaningless death by the enemy's attacks and turning it into a meaningful example akin to "we will not go quietly into the night" multiplied by as many deaths as the suicide bomber can cause with their own willful (their choosing, their terms, not the enemy's) demise. It is not insignificant that these people aften need someone to coach them along, to separate them from friends and family, to sometimes present them with 'special' ceremonies steeped on beliefs the individuals already hold, affirming their sense of self-righteousness and steeling their resolve for the task that requires a cold and detached focus.
Think of it as cult programming times a thousand, for the sole purpose of convincing the bomber that their death is inevitable, their sacrifice has meaning, and their cause is the most just and right thing they can do in the face of eternity.
But these people aren't suicidal. They are convinced to celebrate their 'worthiness'. Their resolve. The promises in the afterlife are just a frosting on the cake of how important their assumed martyrdom will be to the cause that they've been indoctrinated to. They aren't struggling with feelings of inadequacy or meaninglessness, they are fed feelings of empowerment and relevance. They aren't trying to make some suffering go away, they are encouraged to absorb the sufferings that have been inflicted on them and give back tenfold. They aren't convinced it's the only way out, they are convinced that this is the best, most esteemed, highest way out.
And then they go out to commit their act of what they have been convinced is the ultimate act of righteousness. Not long afterward, the handler who coached the person through the process moves on to the next volunteer, to assess whether they will be fit for the indoctrination they need to go willingly into death for the cause.
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quote: However, you are the only poster in this thread who has previously stated openly that genocide is okay if it is justified
For the sake of honesty, I must say you are not accurate in this statement.
Incidentally would you say ANYTHING is still not OK even if it is justified.
Well I don't know how I feel about that as quoted. But Lisa is the only person on this board I've ever seen advocate a form of, or something very similar to, genocide.
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"Interestingly, Kranky agreed with me but you don't see Lisa tearing into him for agreeing."
[quote]Krank quote:
"I definitely agree with you that I can't think of a first world nation who could (and/or should) justifiably claim superiority."
About the only thing I agree on with Justa is that. Justa bet that Lisa would not disagree on that point, but I side with Lisa's position on justa about everything else.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Well I don't know how I feel about that as quoted. But Lisa is the only person on this board I've ever seen advocate a form of, or something very similar to, genocide.
Weasel words. I've never done any such thing. Your "or something very similar to" is a way of accusing me of having done something that you know I didn't do.
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I've seen you suggest that they should be forced marched out of their homes, and if they refuse, whatever means necessary should be taken to move them, and you don't much care if they die when they hit the border.
That's the closest to genocide I've ever seen anyone on this board say before.
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quote:I've seen you suggest that they should be forced marched out of their homes, and if they refuse, whatever means necessary should be taken to move them, and you don't much care if they die when they hit the border.
That's the closest to genocide I've ever seen anyone on this board say before.
That's really not genocide, or close to it.
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Alright, I'll amend it to "potential, probable gateway to genocide." Just to be fair. Depending on how such a scenario were to play out, it would indeed be a very real genocide.
On the scale of 1-10 of crimes against humanity, I'd put genocide at a 10. I'd put what Lisa has suggested at maybe an 8.5, possibly an 8.0. I'd put an average murder at a 1.
I consider it fairly close. But I admit that's just me.
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quote:Originally posted by Krankykat: JUST A QUOTE NOTE:
quote:Justa quote:
"Interestingly, Kranky agreed with me but you don't see Lisa tearing into him for agreeing."
Krank quote:
"I definitely agree with you that I can't think of a first world nation who could (and/or should) justifiably claim superiority."
About the only thing I agree on with Justa is that. Justa bet that Lisa would not disagree on that point, but I side with Lisa's position on justa about everything else.
Krank
Then you have another post you need to re-word:
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa:
Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Yup, and the cultivation is being done by radical Islam and its clerics.
What's the "yup, and the cultivation" there for? What in the quote of mine that YOU used are you agreeing with, Kranky?
If you don't agree, that's cool. I'm just letting you know you might want to change your post. I've already detailed more on that particular sentence you've quoted, and based it on written and vocal interviews I've seen/heard from people who actually engage in the activity. Given the alternative to choose between those testimonies and the opinions of someone thousands of miles away in a completely different environment, I'm somewhat compelled to put more credence in the person who is there. It isn't some touchy-feely psychoanalysis thing, it is more visceral than that, a grand delusion based on specific prompting by others to perform the deed.
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quote:Originally posted by Teshi: But they do commit suicide, even if they believe they will be immediately ushured into a new celebrated life in the kingdom of heaven.
There is suicide and there is sacrifice. Which do you really think they believe they are doing?
quote:But they do commit suicide, even if they believe they will be immediately ushured into a new celebrated life in the kingdom of heaven.
I agree with Justa on this. If a person runs in front of a truck to push somebody else out of the way, I think it would be silly to call them suicidal. They were motivated by noble values. I think that suicide bombers feel that their actions are as heroic as the person who runs in front of the truck.
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Not to say that such feelings aren't born of manipulated delusion. I've already come close to being called a traitor in one thread. Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:But they do commit suicide, even if they believe they will be immediately ushured into a new celebrated life in the kingdom of heaven.
I agree with Justa on this. If a person runs in front of a truck to push somebody else out of the way, I think it would be silly to call them suicidal. They were motivated by noble values. I think that suicide bombers feel that their actions are as heroic as the person who runs in front of the truck.
Except that the explosive device is being used as a way to kill many infidels without suffering capture by those same infidels. As concealing weapons, just isn't working anymore, they explode themselves as its MUCH harder to see it coming. To more accurately use your analogy,
They see the truck coming and know that by attempting to save the life of a person in the path of the truck they will likely be killed and go to heaven, so they act.
They may think the act of dying seals the deal for them getting into heaven, but I am pretty sure even according to THEIR theology God wants people to live his gospel not die for it. Its much harder to live a life of obedience then it is to throw your life away in one grand noble act of sacrifice.
The early Christians had this problem, where people actually antagonized the Roman authorities so that they could be thrown into the fire or put in the arena with wild animals. The belief being that to die as a martyr assured one of entrance into heaven.
The Christians got over it, it is to be hoped these Muslims can do the same.
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It's the radical clerics that are the root of these things. The young and uneducated are easily swayed by their powerful orations and eventually they get brainwashed. You cannot really blame the individual bombers as much as the clerics. Most of the people just come to the clerics thinking it will strengthen their relationship with God, much as some people go to Youth Group activities that are held out of church. When they start to listen to the clerics then the problem starts. The whole concept of suicide bombing is based on the idea of afterlife, and the clerics know that. That is their form of control.
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Interesting, but I didn't see any three year old saying stuff like, "They (Jews) are apes and pigs." Just a whole bunch of old people with closed minds and rotten hearts. I consider instituting blind hatred on a child far more frightening and disturbing than "darksided people".
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Interesting, but I didn't see any three year old saying stuff like, "They (Jews) are apes and pigs." Just a whole bunch of old people with closed minds and rotten hearts. I consider instituting blind hatred on a child far more frightening and disturbing than "darksided people".
Oh, so it's only when they say "apes and pigs" that televising hatred is wrong. My mistake. I didn't realize you were being so specific.
You should look up Westboro Baptist Church some time. Then do a YouTube search for "Jesus Camp" to see some more heavy indoctrination. There are plenty of examples of these hate-mongers spreading their doctrine to children. Funny how it's just "people with closed minds and rotten hearts" when it's in the figurative mirror.
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Interesting, but I didn't see any three year old saying stuff like, "They (Jews) are apes and pigs." Just a whole bunch of old people with closed minds and rotten hearts. I consider instituting blind hatred on a child far more frightening and disturbing than "darksided people".
Oh, so it's only when they say "apes and pigs" that televising hatred is wrong. My mistake. I didn't realize you were being so specific.
You should look up Westboro Baptist Church some time. Then do a YouTube search for "Jesus Camp" to see some more heavy indoctrination. There are plenty of examples of these hate-mongers spreading their doctrine to children. Funny how it's just "people with closed minds and rotten hearts" when it's in the figurative mirror.
Ok, what's your beef?
I'm just saying that it's far more disturbing to see hatred being taught to an innocent child than it is to see it played out in adults.
You seem to be bashing on Christianity because it seems like you think I was bashing on Islam, which is SO not what I was doing.
You're showing me these things as if I didn't live in Republican Southern California where you can find a Jesus freak in your front porch every day.
EDIT: I have also watched many responses and I think this this was probably the most respectful, and mature.
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I also watched this one, and sadly I find it so true. The man here talks about how we just go from part A to part B all our lives...he can explain it better than me. linkPosts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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The article clearly indicates Ahmadinejads failure as a leader, economically and politically (internationally and locally), in the eyes of the Iranian people as well as China, Russia, , the EU and the UN, Iranian college students, the Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri, and Iran's supreme leader, the Ayatollah Khamenei. It says that he hates the US and Israel and he has failed to deliver on his promises to the Iranian people.
The article also says that "People [Iranian] say it's Ahmadinejad who's the problem. Even the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, favors some kind of deal. But this is Ahmadinejad's flagship issue: People [Iranian] like the way he has stood up to the Americans and he isn't going to throw that away, (his downfall?)" a Western diplomat argues. He was even warned by Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri not to provoke Irans enemies (Western powers, the US and Israel).
Khameneis newspaper, the Islamic Republic, even warned: "Our advice to the president is to speak about the nuclear issue only during important national occasions, stop provoking aggressive powers like the United States (THE ENEMY!) and concentrate more on the daily needs of the people, those who voted for you on your promises."
Clearly the article shows that Ahmadinejad is a radical Muslim who hates the US and Israel, and the clerics, who are in charge of the country are in agreement. Ahmadinejad is a bully who desires a nuclear bomb at his disposal. The clerics and the people of Iran seem to agree that .Ahmadinejad is out of step with what is best for their country right now. Iran could be a stabilizing force in the middle-east if they rid themselves of this despotic leader and work to normalize peace with the west. Only time will tell.
It should be noted that in Iran and other Islamic countries ultimately base their political beliefs and government on the Korans religious doctrine, its dogma and jihad. There is no practice of making no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. and there is truly no belief that Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
EDIT: On the positive side "So far, Ahmadinejad has firmly rejected the idea that the sanctions could hurt his country. On Sunday, while delivering a speech on his next budget to the Parliament, he argued that that the price of tomatoes was lower than reported by some people.
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was lower than reported by some people.
