The results are a little surprising, but I would like to see something like this done at some other time that rush hour on the way in to work. Perhaps, on the commute home after work on Friday?
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quote:The poet Billy Collins once laughingly observed that all babies are born with a knowledge of poetry, because the lub-dub of the mother's heart is in iambic meter. Then, Collins said, life slowly starts to choke the poetry out of us. It may be true with music, too.
There was no ethnic or demographic pattern to distinguish the people who stayed to watch Bell, or the ones who gave money, from that vast majority who hurried on past, unheeding. Whites, blacks and Asians, young and old, men and women, were represented in all three groups. But the behavior of one demographic remained absolutely consistent. Every single time a child walked past, he or she tried to stop and watch. And every single time, a parent scooted the kid away.
posted
The average person, in my mind, doesn't recognize great anything.
If they did, then the world wouldn't be filled with so much schlock that the average person seeks out like a moth to a flame.
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The average person, in my experience, doesn't have time to stop and listen to anything at 7:51 a.m. while they're on their way to work, even if they want to.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: The average person, in my experience, doesn't have time to stop and listen to anything at 7:51 a.m. while they're on their way to work, even if they want to.
You mean they are on their way to work, if they know what's good for them.
Interesting bit about the children, though. Amazing and wonderous thing, children are.
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I'm skeptical about the children thing. Aren't kids generally drawn to novel stuff? Who is to say that it's the quality of the music and not the novelty of it that was causing them to stop?
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You're almost certainly right Noemon. I thought the same thing. I'm betting the children would've stopped for any performer playing any music. Children are just inquisitive. So in that sense, I don't think it was the quality of the music drawing their attention. But if we wanna talk about that fact in regards to adults and their priorities and being bogged down by life to the point where we lose that childhood sense of wonder and curiousity, then I think it's a good point.
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Kids will sing "Baby Beluga" non-stop for hours.
When I read that story, I was just sad that it never happened where I was going to work. I absolutely would have stopped to listen. Getting a talking to for coming in half an hour late is a small price to pay to listen to Joshua Bell from 10 feet away.
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I would have stopped and listened for ages... Even if I had to rush to work. Dang, it would have been cool to see that guy! I'd ask him to let me look at his violin.
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Darn it kat, you beat me to it. Although, being most definitely NOT a Guns and Roses fan, I was going to use it to support the opposing view Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: But if we wanna talk about that fact in regards to adults and their priorities and being bogged down by life to the point where we lose that childhood sense of wonder and curiousity, then I think it's a good point.
quote:For many of us, the explosion in technology has perversely limited, not expanded, our exposure to new experiences. Increasingly, we get our news from sources that think as we already do. And with iPods, we hear what we already know; we program our own playlists.
I think this is having a big impact on education too. To say that we don't seek out experiences that we aren't familiar with, is much the same as to say that we don't want to learn anything new. Students increasingly don't want their horizons expanded.
quote: The song that Calvin Myint was listening to was "Just Like Heaven," by the British rock band The Cure. It's a terrific song, actually. The meaning is a little opaque, and the Web is filled with earnest efforts to deconstruct it. Many are far-fetched, but some are right on point: It's about a tragic emotional disconnect. A man has found the woman of his dreams but can't express the depth of his feeling for her until she's gone. It's about failing to see the beauty of what's plainly in front of your eyes.
I once read a paper about how people perceive food. The gist of it was that poor people just want to stop being hungry. Middle-class people want food that tastes good. Rich people want food to be presented well, or to have status associated with it.
In this case the music was both nutritious and delicious, but nobody expected to gain any status by listening to it. It needed a designer label.
I'd be curious to see that same experiment carried out during rush hour in a blue collar area, instead of a metro station where the commuters are:
quote: mostly mid-level bureaucrats with those indeterminate, oddly fungible titles: policy analyst, project manager, budget officer, specialist, facilitator, consultant.
posted
I think what we can learn from this is that music is a luxury, and whereas people want to listen to it when they can relax, they won't go out of their way for it when they want to be somewhere else. Children aren't thinking about schedules so they are more easily lured. But we probably already knew all that.
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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Once I get a chance to read the article in full, I'll post a decent response and maybe get into the discussion.
I'll say two things that strike me right away, positive or negative.
1. The Chaconne is more like 11 minutes (tempos vary), not anywhere near 14 (that's what the author gets for checking wikipedia). If you're talking a guitar arrangement, it's still less than 14. The other myriad arrangements might also be longer than the original... it's a hard piece for any instrument.
2. This article is a puff peace written by a non music person (I am guessing) and I hate that with a white hot passion. It was probably the string of 9 stupid cliché adjectives that turned me sour against the article. Please, people, music is music, you can stop talking about "soaring" and "sobbing." If the article had any credibility as a musicological effort, it wouldn't include such fluff- because the author would do a lot better than pulling out a thesaurus.
3.I've got an idea! Let's ambush the hoity toity classical music "expert" and ask him if his so called "Great Music" would be recognized by the general public in a context designed to negate the possibility that it will be recognized by any non-musician who passes by. In so doing we will insult either the "great music" gurus or the general public which is too stupid to realize that Joshua Bell might be the one playing the violin in an echoey and busy metro station in Washington.
4. The idea that we are still asking the question: "does the layman recognize 'great music?'" Is painful to me. The answer is no. Recognizing great music (like anything else, be it great engineering or great writing ability) takes training and practice. Music is not great in a vacuum, it's great in context of style and taste. This experiment is bogus and it makes me angry.
quote: "No, Mr. Slatkin, there was never a crowd, not even for a second."
This tears it for me. First of all, Bell made 32 dollars in 10 minutes playing the violin in a metro station... I would think that's GOOD! Second, the thumbing of your nose at the kind person who was willing to sit in an interview with you and be ambushed and laughed at is intolerable. I lose all respect for this author right there.
quote: "The people scurry by in comical little hops and starts, cups of coffee in their hands, cellphones at their ears, ID tags slapping at their bellies, a grim danse macabre to indifference, inertia and the dingy, gray rush of modernity."
If the author is a student of the "modern" and modernity, then he is a poor or disingenuous one. The idea that you can draw conclusions about society based on your interaction with a spot YOU CHOSE as an unlikely place for people to stop and have the faintest inkling of what you're exposing them to.... GAH!!! This thing is making me really upset.
Ps. I've had it with the snarky, would be profound tone this blowhard is employing. People, this guy is a schlub.
edit: Reading further into the article, I understand that he is being *slightly* ironic. But please, the whole thing is stupid, his tone is stupid, etc.
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If you haven't read the whole article, you are really oerstepping. Read the article. Read the chat he did about the article. Your assumptions about him, his motivations, and his conclusions are not supported by the article.
For example, Bell actually played for 43 minutes.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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How can we collectively recognize greatness in music?
Maybe we could use C S Lewis's idea for recognizing greatness in literature. The literary are people who value books, consider them important, and read them again and again, and a good book is one that people like that want. We could say that great music is music people value, focus on, and want over and over. But would a literary person take his great book to a soccer match and read it between plays? I don't think so. A true music lover wouldn't want to try to hear a masterpiece over traffic noise while running to catch a train. Maybe true music lovers would be *less* likely to stop and have something they consider important ruined by circumstance.
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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I stop and listen to street musicians when I'm on vacation. Put Joshua Bell on a street corner in the French Quarter (pre-Katrina; I don't know what it's like now, as I haven't been back) and he'll draw crowds, even though he'd be playing the wrong type of music for that particular location.
I might or might not have stopped, even if I weren't in a hurry. I probably would've stopped for a great jazz clarinet, or someone playing a guitar and singing (again, assuming quality). As I get older, I'm getting less defensive about my tastes. Solo violin usually isn't it. (Although I loved the playing in The Red Violin, so who knows.)
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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This writer sees the violin music as something sacred and holy, that everyone should bow down to and worship, and if they don't, they're godless heathens who can't see the beauty in anything.
But what if classical music is just not the kind of music that you like? For me, classical music has never really gotten inside me and moved me, no matter how good it is. That's not a sin. "Beauty" is not determined by how intricate the music is, or how much money you can pay for a seat to listen to it. Beauty depends on what moves you and amazes you, and for me, that's not violin music. Therefore, I probably wouldn't stop to listen. If my favorite rock band were playing at the metro station, of course I would stop and listen. But that's just my taste.
quote:This writer sees the violin music as something sacred and holy, that everyone should bow down to and worship, and if they don't, they're godless heathens who can't see the beauty in anything.
He's specifically not saying that. The article is not about "look at the hicks who don't know good music."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:This writer sees the violin music as something sacred and holy, that everyone should bow down to and worship, and if they don't, they're godless heathens who can't see the beauty in anything.
He's specifically not saying that. The article is not about "look at the hicks who don't know good music."
It's not? I must have misread it.
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There is one thing that I think we can NOT conclude from this experiment:
Firstly, I don't think we can conclude that the average person recognizes great music any less successfully than the classical music buff would. After all, many people pass by the metro station in the course of 43 minutes - some of them had to be people who listen to classical music. I suspect at least a few were music majors in college or students of music who'd have a well-above-average interest in music. These people didn't stop. It should be noted that the people that did stop and listen were average people. Hence, my suspicion would be that people in general, whether average or classical music fans, did not recognize great music when dressed up as a street player. There is no indication here that even the most trained expert in classical music would have stopped.
Instead, what I think this experiment shows is that we have difficulty recognizing greatness if it isn't "dressed up" as greatness. It is like having the best employee in the world show up for a job interview wearing jeans and a T-shirt - often they won't get hired because they don't look like greatness. I don't think it is that people don't recognize greatness, but rather that they don't trust themselves to recognize greatness when all more obvious signs point to the opposite. You might think "That street musician is great!" but my guess is then you'd also think to yourself "Yeah, but I must be imagining things - he is obviously just a street musician, so there's no need to stop and listen." This applies to writing too - if OSC posted an Ender's Game fan-fiction story online, under a fake name, I bet most EG fans would not recognize anything special in it.
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I've stated this on another forum: if Bruce Springsteen and his entire East Street Band was playing on the Metrorail/Tri-Rail platform, on my way to work, every morning I probably wouldn't notice him either. All I'm thinking about then is "must get to train... must get to work... train... work..."
If anything, I'd think to myself "hey, that guy's doing a great Bruce Springsteen impersonation! Oh, yeah... train... work..."
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Orincoro, I understand your general distrust of non-musicians when they look at our field. There is certainly a great deal of ignorance out there that, even with good intentions, can cause a great amount of harm. Nevertheless, I think that this author isn't trying to make so much of a point about music and the general appreciation thereof, but rather, that American culture has a skewed sense of priorities. He points out that we have become so self-absorbed in our own daily tasks, that we rarely notice things out of our own 'sphere of interest', and that if we do, we don't care enough to pay attention to it. Recall one of those individuals who was interviewed, and he said that he didn't even remember that there was any musician there at all. THAT strikes me as astounding. I might come to a different conclusion than to assume that this is uniquely an American issue. It would be interesting to see what would happen in different areas of the world, and even different areas of the U.S.
Also, you (and others) argue that great music is not a universality (to use my own -- possibly made up -- word). Rather, it may simply be that the classical music did not pique the interest of those insufficiently trained or groomed to like such music, be it great or no. Does this invalidate the entire point of the article? I would argue that the article is also asking whether the average person recognizes a great performer, as well. It is certainly easy for a layman to recognize BAD playing, particularly when the badness is exaggerated. It is more difficult for the layman to distiguish between adequate and phenomenal playing, but the author and his colleagues wanted to see to what extent.
Xaposert, you make a great point. Setting and appearance does play a significant role in an individual's perception.
Personally, I'd like to think that as a musician myself, I would have recognized the great skill of that musician. I certainly would have thought it odd for a street musician to be playing Bach, etc. And I am pretty sure I would have stopped to listen, barring a VERY important engagement.
In my case, the article merely prompted some questions in my mind, even if I take it with a healthy serving of salt. Remember that when a journalist writes these kind of 'interest' stories, they almost always are NOT professionals in that field, so I don't get upset that the article was written. I merely find the inaccuracies and weigh them into my overall thoughts on the topic.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
All though it irritates me to read articles describing how backward and horrible other people can be, this article describes exactly what I don't like about this country.
I think it all comes straight from the idea of the American dream. There was the whole idea that anyone in this country can become rich, if they work hard enough. In modern life, that translats into everyone being dedicated to (or obsessed with) their job, always trying to get promotions, work harder, please everyone, and ultimately, make more money, so they can buy their big house in the country and drive their SUVs around and impress everyone. And then their kids go into school (into a rich private college prepatory school) and they have to get all A's and play sports and musical instraments and get good SAT scores, so they can get into an Ivy League college and get a good job and earn money and start the whole cycle again. ...Cause that's what success and happiness is.
I think it accounts for the high levels of depression in America, as well as caffeine addictions.
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Check out interviews with Nuttin' But Stringz. Two brothers, fantastic violinists in their teens, grew up playing a blend of violin and I'd say hip hop. They played in New York subways, blue collar stations until eventually getting a record deal.
It's an amazing blend of classical and more recent stuff. Frankly, I greatly dislike hiphop, and I thought it was an amazing way to bring me to like a genre I usually dislike (which is ironic, usually you have to pair Classical to something else to get people to like Classical and not the other way around).
It's an interesting article, I almost skipped it entirely until I saw "Bell" in there and assumed it was Joshua Bell, which picqued my interest. Frankly I would assume that people just didn't have time to stop. They picked an insanely busy time and location to do this, and personally, if I had to get to work with no time to spare, I'd kick myself but I wouldn't have time to listen.
There's an interesting discussion there about what's good and what isn't, like taking a famous painting and putting it in a restaurant. The problem with the newer stuff, art I mean, is that much of it looks like something a six year old could do. Makes it hard for a layman to recognize talent. I've seen Koyanisquatsi before, my English teacher showed it to our class in AP English in high school. When they sped up the video, that's exactly what it felt like, just with better music (no offense to Glass, I only like bits and pieces of his music).
I think, with the little kids, it was just the novelty. I doubt the kids inherently appreciated the fantastic skill the music was being played with, I suspect they would have reacted the same if I had been standing out there with my sax or my bagpipe chanter (though maybe covering their ears for the second one).
I'd like to see this repeated two more times, once in a blue collar neighborhood, and once at a high traffic place at a time of day when people aren't in a rush to get to work, say, 6pm in Times Square.
Thanks for posting this. And if you do check out Nuttin But Strings, which I highly recommend, their single for the last like two years has been "Thunder," which is really good.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Huh. I should become a street musician. I don't think Bell got much more money than any halfway decent musician would get, and 40 bucks an hour is pretty damn good. That's about what I get playing in a band, and that's only once every few weeks when we get a show.
It's sad. I spent the day in a recording studio with an amazing musician who is friends with Randy George, one of the best bass players around, and he says the George has to work a full time job. People who sit in a cubicle all day get paid more than these people who create beauty that did not exist in the world before they made it.
Then again, why should someone get paid more to do something they would do anyway, as opposed to someone who does something he hates? Meh.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
There used to be a guy who played violin in the lab where I used to work, on his lunch hour. I would hear it from my lab, and at first I assumed that he was playing a stereo. He was really good. I specifically remember him playing Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" and Scheherazade.
When I discovered that it was him playing, I had to go in and watch him. Not just listen, watching is very important to me with respect to live music.
The thing that gets me with the Joshua Bell thing, is that he was standing right there, playing. It would be one thing to have the same music blaring over a loudspeaker in the subway station. That might annoy me. But to walk right past him, see the fingers flying, watch his body movements and facial expressions; I just can't imagine not taking notice.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I think that it was a great article, although I am not sure about it's conclusions. I LOVE music, and given the chance I would LOVE to see Joshua Bell play....but if I was late for work I would probably not stop for long. I would probably also regret not being able to stop for the rest of the day, and would have listened to him for as long as it was audible....as I went about my business.
I have stopped for street musicians before, because I know music, and I can recognize talent when I hear it most of the time. But I don't assume I know anything about the people who don't because I don't know them.
I do, however, think it is a shame.
I also don't think this writer was mocking anyone....they agreed with him, to the point of discussing crowd control issues! But they were surprised by the results.
I think it was a great article, and raises a lot of good points.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Once I get a chance to read the article in full, I'll post a decent response and maybe get into the discussion.
I'll say two things that strike me right away, positive or negative.
1. The Chaconne is more like 11 minutes (tempos vary), not anywhere near 14 (that's what the author gets for checking wikipedia). If you're talking a guitar arrangement, it's still less than 14. The other myriad arrangements might also be longer than the original... it's a hard piece for any instrument.
..................................
Kurmugeon Out.. for now.
I have 4 recordings of it on my computer right now.
All of them, on violin of course, are over 14 min long. Perhaps he didn't use a wikki, but talked to Joshua Bell...who should know better than us.
Honestly, every recording I can find as about 14 min long. Not one of them was UNDER the 14 min mark. I guess they knew what they were talking about after all.
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: You might think "That street musician is great!" but my guess is then you'd also think to yourself "Yeah, but I must be imagining things - he is obviously just a street musician, so there's no need to stop and listen."
Piffle. I have heard some absolutely WONDERFUL street musicians. I am well aware, and I think many other people are also, that becoming a "famous musician" depends on many things, and talent is only one of them.
It was rush hour. People were hurrying to work. Trying to read more into it is, IMO, grasping at straws.
The one thing in common that every excellent street musician I have heard had? The timing to be somewhere when I was NOT rushing past. Otherwise, I wouldn't remember them as being excellent -- I wouldn't remember them at all!
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I have seen some that amazed me, but I just didn't have the time to stop.
Most of them are fair at best (and a lot aren't even that), but you never know when they might knock your socks off.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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There's no such thing as great music. There's only great music for me, or great music for you. Music, like all art, is completely subjective. One person's classic is another person's crud.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: Also, you (and others) argue that great music is not a universality (to use my own -- possibly made up -- word). Rather, it may simply be that the classical music did not pique the interest of those insufficiently trained or groomed to like such music, be it great or no. Does this invalidate the entire point of the article? I would argue that the article is also asking whether the average person recognizes a great performer, as well. It is certainly easy for a layman to recognize BAD playing, particularly when the badness is exaggerated. It is more difficult for the layman to distiguish between adequate and phenomenal playing, but the author and his colleagues wanted to see to what extent.
Well, I think the answer to your question, "does this invalidate the entire point of the article?" is yes.
The article is not an acceptable critique of our society because it details an "experiment" specifically set up to have a particular result. I've read the article now, as well as his "chat" from a few days later, and it's evident to me that his claim that he was seeking no particular result is bologna. If this experiment had resulted in a moderately sized crowd forming, there would likely have been no substantive article, and even if there had been, it would not have been noticed.
The author's snarky comments and affected overly-written style are off-putting at the very least, but to me they reveal a more serious problem with his thinking. He is trying not only to write but to be "important," and it feels the whole way through like an article co-authored by our dear friend Pelegius. The problem with the article, for me, is that it begins with such a loaded idea. The author even admits that the idea was something he wanted to do for a long time, which tells me that it was too sensational and, frankly, ridiculous to do without spending some time convincing others it would be good idea.
If he had any notion of how art appreciation really worked, he would have known from the beginning that the experiment would give no useful result. It is set up to include too many factors to quantify, So that he can draw whatever conclusion he likes. If a crowd had formed, he could have concluded that Bell's celebrity factor was to blame, or that Bell had a presence apart from his music that was appealing.
He picked music that did not even interest HIM! He admits a poor knowledge of one of the greatest works of western baroque music (the Chaconne), and expects other to be able to recognize the piece as great. He clearly has very little experience with even the style of J.S. Bach, and does not appear to be a long time fan of Bell, yet he asserts the "greatness" of the music and of the performer based on, GASP, what someone else has told him. He then experiments to see if others can recognize the greatness in music and a performer he has no experience with. That he doesn't immediately, as in before the experiment begins, realize that the foundation of his hypothesis is flawed, is shocking to me. It's appalling that he would attempt this experiment with such, as I see them, poor intentioned motives.
It would be very interesting to me to see this experiment performed, but the fact that it was attempted in such a way, for the benefit of a poorly written, grandstanding puff piece is really quite aggravating. I've complained so, so often about the comoditization of classical music as an abstract concept- and this is just another example of one person coming to the shocking realization that what he doesn't know, others also don't know.
Classical music is about learning, it is about intellect and history, it is about exploration and teaching, about expression, art and style. What it is not is absolute, god-given, miraculous, or unintelligible magic. Why do people have act like this?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I tend to agree with you, Lisa, but then I tend not to. 99.9% of all music is subjectively good, bad, or somewhere in between. But then there are those certain pieces by Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and Yes that are simply beyond judgment.
Just kidding about Yes. The greatness of Gates of Delirium is certainly a matter of opinion, but I find my opinion of it to be the right one.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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All of them, on violin of course, are over 14 min long. Perhaps he didn't use a wikki, but talked to Joshua Bell...who should know better than us.
Honestly, every recording I can find as about 14 min long. Not one of them was UNDER the 14 min mark. I guess they knew what they were talking about after all.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
I also have several recordings. I should be more clear: a couple of my recordings are as long as 15 minutes, but these are played incredibly slow. There is a bit of variation in playing speeds, in general (and not always) the great violinists tend to play it moderately faster than others. My Perlman recording IS 11 minutes, and judging from the video, it is around the tempo that Bell is using. Of course in Bach's Partitas there are no hard and fast tempi, but generally speaking, and as a matter of opinion to some extent, 11 minutes is idea for the Chaconne, 14 minutes is very slow.
We can't presume that Bell told him how long the piece was- he might have looked it up on wiki or on itunes, where results will vary.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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If that's so, I'll retract my point. But I honestly think this performance is shorter than 14.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I tend to agree with you, Lisa, but then I tend not to. 99.9% of all music is subjectively good, bad, or somewhere in between. But then there are those certain pieces by Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and Yes that are simply beyond judgment.
No piece is beyond judgement, imo. As soon as you decided that a piece was untouchable or perfect, you might as well stop talking about it. In the Kantian sense, a judgment of perfection in the piece of art necessitates a belief in our own perfect understanding and moral prerogative to judge the work. Thus, works that are mysterious or incompletely understood by modern listeners are those studied and admired long afterward.
As an example of this thinking, imagine that I asked you to write a chorale which was 16 measures long, tonicized the dominant, and ended on a PAC. You could, using those limitations, construct a "perfect" chorale where the voice leading and harmonies were all dutifully executed according to "the rules" from Bach's chorales. The piece could be flawless, and not be a good piece. On the other hand, I could ask you to construct a highly adventurous piece in the same parameters, and you could deliver a product that was vastly more complicated and difficult to interpret- it might be the product of a much greater attention to detail and innovative thinking. In running the risk of creating a flawed, unfamiliar piece that might defy contemporary analysis (pretty much exactly what Mozart and Beethoven did), you may have created something greater than "perfection."
As the ultimate example, anyone who's ever performed Beethoven's 9th symphony recognizes the very significant flaws in that piece, especially in the final movement- and yet the piece is regarded as among the best, if not the very best, ever written.
edit: And I hasten to add that I am not suggesting that someone else could have written the 9th "better," but simply that Beethoven's work is naturally flawed. Who can say that as great as that piece is, another composer with more competence in choral writing could have improved it somehow? Very likely, another composer would have taken something from it by perfecting it. The flaws remain distinctive and fascinating.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote: Originally posted by Orincoro: Of course in Bach's Partitas there are no hard and fast tempi, but generally speaking, and as a matter of opinion to some extent, 11 minutes is idea for the Chaconne, 14 minutes is very slow.
There are 5 movements in all in Bach's Partita in D Minor for Solo Violin
The Ciaccona (commonly known as Chaconne in English), the concluding movement of the partita, lasts some 12 to 14 minutes, surpassing the duration of the previous movements combined. So yes, it is long and can vary in duration based on tempo.
quote: Classical music is about learning, it is about intellect and history, it is about exploration and teaching, about expression, art and style.
Funny, all this time I thought Classical music was something to be heard and enjoyed. I never knew I was supposed to be learning from it, especially history and exploration! Sorry, I couldn't resist that one, but seriously, as a musician who grew up with a music teacher for a mother and an opera singer for a Grandmother I can honestly say that many people can recognize great music -as long as they are not tone deaf anyway. They may not particularly like the genre of music, and they may not have time to stop and actively listen, they may even listen to their own music on their IPods. That doesn't mean that they can't recognize great music. I personally can not stand solo violin. Sometimes I can tolerate it, but it is too high pitched an instrument for me. I dearly love cello music and can listen to it for hours, but if I had been there and heard him playing, I doubt that I would have done much more than giving him a large donation because I am able to recognize great music and kept right on going before my ears started to bleed! I mean no offense to violin lovers or players, my ears just cannot tolerate the higher tones of that particular instrument.
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I wonder how many people would stop if Dave Mathews was in disguise playing his own music, or some other super pop star? Probably not many, they would think he was just someone trying to make a buck. But if you put Dave out so people could recognize him I would be willing to bet by the end of 43 mins there would be a huge crowd regardless of how late they were for work.
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I didn't read the article to evaluate whether the research was valid. Rather, I was already operating on the assumption that it was not. But obviously, the article does bring up many questions. What is the nature of music? Is there any composition that is subjectively great? What about our society, and its approach to dealing with novelty? Are we too preoccupied with the daily grind to take note of things of interest?
Yes, I'll agree that the premise (and also the forum title) are not accurate. The question should not have been "can the average person recognize great music" because, as many of have argued, it's all subjective. But the other questions are, IMHO, worthwhile discussion topics. Even if some of them generate somewhat obvious responses.
Orincoro, I AGREE with you that the author doesn't know what he's talking about when he waxes eloquent about music. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a discussion about, say, what DOES attract the attention of the so-called average person.
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quote: Originally posted by Orincoro: Of course in Bach's Partitas there are no hard and fast tempi, but generally speaking, and as a matter of opinion to some extent, 11 minutes is idea for the Chaconne, 14 minutes is very slow.
There are 5 movements in all in Bach's Partita in D Minor for Solo Violin
The Ciaccona (commonly known as Chaconne in English), the concluding movement of the partita, lasts some 12 to 14 minutes, surpassing the duration of the previous movements combined. So yes, it is long and can vary in duration based on tempo.
I'm finishing my combined BA in musicology and theory/composition in the next few months... I know. I only say this to point out that my post does not admit an ignorance of any such thing- I just chose not to mention the piece in context of the suite, especially given that the article didn't present it in that way either... and honestly how many time have you heard the WHOLE suite played? The chaconne is the main attraction.
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Bando, I know you're trying to have that discussion- I just didn't like the validation that this article got from this thread and from the public response the author chose to reflect in his "chat" session. It's grandstanding and interminably stupid.
That being said, I like what you have to say, and I think we could easily have this discussion without using the shaky ground of this article as a jumping off point. I was just responding to that- it's not a valid place to begin a discussion, imho.
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Sorry, I couldn't resist that one, but seriously, as a musician who grew up with a music teacher for a mother and an opera singer for a Grandmother I can honestly say that many people can recognize great music -as long as they are not tone deaf anyway. They may not particularly like the genre of music, and they may not have time to stop and actively listen, they may even listen to their own music on their IPods. That doesn't mean that they can't recognize great music.![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
I mean no offense to violin lovers or players, my ears just cannot tolerate the higher tones of that particular instrument.
