quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: I guess I'm like Stacy in the comments section. One of the first things I noticed was the quality of writing was subpar for a senior in high school, let alone one about to get a college degree in English.
I'm afraid I didn't really see a point to either of the plays. There was a lot of suggested violence, profanity, and perverse sexuality present, but what came across was the overwhelming anger and unfocused, blind rage of it all.
For you English teachers (or others), is this typical of teenage and young adult writing? Or does something here raise some big warning flags?
I have read a lot of writing by young people. In my high school (where, first of all, this would not be an acceptable level of writing, but I know at least a few community colleges around here where this level of writing is typical) this would have got you sent to the counselor's office and your parents called. In colleges, I don't know what the procedure would be, but I have to think that some flags would have to be raised. These plays, to me, read like some short stories I have read by seriously mentally disturbed high school students. The rage and the unfocused nature in particular remind me of a depressed, schizophrenic young man I knew (he was on medication but the medication made him depressed and had awful side effects, so sometimes he took it and sometimes he didn't.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
If we lock up or restrain by force everyone who looks like they might be dangerous before they have done anything, we give up a considerable amount of our freedom.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:The female students complained to the campus police department about contact they had had with Cho in person and on the telephone, Finchum said. Neither student pressed charges, and one labeled the contact "annoying."
In the first case, in November, 2005 officers referred Cho to the university discipline system. The next month, at the request of the second female student, officers met with Cho to ask him not to contact her again.
Hours later, a friend of Cho's called campus police to say he seemed suicidal, Finchum said. Police then contacted Cho again, and convinced him to come and speak to a mental health counselor. After that contact, on Dec. 13, 2005, a temporary detention order was obtained for Cho and he was taken to a local mental health facility off campus for evaluation, Finchum said.
Officials said they believed he was admitted to the facility voluntarily, but would not say how much time he spent there.
Does anyone remember the American University (I think) student who was suspended after school officials learned of his suicide attempt? If I recall correctly, that student sued AU over the suspension.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: (That and the fact that everything is sexual. Was this young man molested or something? Or does he just have a disturbingly sexual world-view?)
I don't think what he wrote necessarily indicates childhood abuse, sexual or other, although it's certainly a possibility.
My first impression was that Cho thought of himself as the stepfather in Richard McBeef. The step-father was the victim of being incessantly mocked for his name, appearance, profession, and background. He was also unjustly accused of being a murderer and child molester, and being treated so unfairly and terribly by everyone else in the story that finally he lashes out in the end and kills his antagonist, in what the author seems to consider a completely justifiable act.
The style and content of the writing just seem like he's trying to find an outlet for all his pain and rage, but just can't find a way to do it in a healthy, adult manner. That's why the poor writing really stood out to me. There are some writers out there that write some pretty (IMO) twisted stuff. However, they are able to communicate the ideas in such a way that it doesn't feel like they're screaming at the world through their work.
Hopefully, this will be a wake-up call to some teachers, counselors, and students so that more steps can be taken to stop similar things from happening in the future.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think there is anything more than could have been done. Unless we want to go back to locking up everyone who exhibits signs of disturbance (all bipolar people, all schizophrenics, everyone who has taken mood stabilizers), then ultimately he had to do something criminal before he could have been locked away. It's better that way - I'm not willing to give up basic human freedoms in order to thwart madmen.
posted
I agree with Katie. As much as everyone would like to think that something like this could be prevented, I don't think it could have been. To me it seems like his professors and the university and the VTPD did what they could to make sure he got the treatment he needed. And for whatever reason, it didn't work or he refused.
On another note, for anyone who would like to express their condolences or support of the Virginia Tech community, this friday will be "Hokie Hope" Day:
quote: Virginia Tech family members across the country have united to declare this Friday, April 20th, an "Orange and Maroon Effect" day to honor those killed in the tragic events on campus Monday, and to show support for Virginia Tech students, faculty, administrators, staff, alumni, and friends. "Orange and Maroon Effect" was born several years ago as an invitation to Tech fans to wear orange and maroon to Virginia Tech athletic events. We invite everyone from all over the country to be a part of the Virginia Tech family this Friday, to wear orange and maroon to support the families of those who were lost, and to support the school and community we all love so much.
posted
Yeah, I actually wrote that post last night before going home, and forgot to hit the post button until this morning. After reading the news this morning, it looks like a lot of people realized he had a problem and tried to do a lot of things to help, short of locking him up, and I don't advocate that at all. What a tragedy.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
katharina, Your right, that is exactly who this kid sounded like. I honestly don't know how he could have been helped. It doesn't sound like he wanted help and he almost enjoyed being the weird loner person. It's just truly sad he chose to take others down with him.
Posts: 601 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
eros, do we need to link to it? I clicked it before checking, we're just upping their traffic.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
So far, I don't recognize any of the victims' names from the official lists. Yet it still hurts (I can't think of any other word to describe my emotions.) I am a few thousand miles from Blacksburg, but my heart still resides close by. As a Radford native whose whole family many friends still live in Radford or Blacksburg, I can't fathom what is going on in the minds of those who are in the area. It is a crazy feeling. Scott Hendricks, a professor in the building at the time, is a good family friend as well as my Stake President (in the Mormon faith.) He is so shaken up right now, and my heart reaches out to him. There are so many others among my friends who are in the same situation. I can only hope they will be able to heal.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
WBC is claiming that Cho is God's tool of vengeance for attacks on their church? I do not believe any of them TRULY believe that is the way things are.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Stephen King has written more disturbing stuff under the Richard Bachman name than Cho's plays.
Quite honestly, that first play of Cho's reminds me of something I wrote in the 8th grade for a class project, although I don't think anyone died in the play I wrote, IIRC.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:NBC News said today that they had received a package from the Virginia Tech gunman, Cho Seung-Hui. The package included video, photos, and writings which NBC News described as "long and rambling."
MSNBC further characterized the contents of Cho's missive and video as "disturbing."
'NBC Nightly News' anchor, Brian Williams, referred to the package as a "multimedia manifesto" on his blog. Analysts on other cable news networks drew comparisons between the Cho package and Theodore Kaczynski's "Unabomber Manifesto," which was published in the New York Times and Washington Post in 1995.
NBC News immediately handed the package and its contents over to the FBI and would not disclose its exact contents pending a federal investigation.
The network indicated that the materials appeared to have been put in the mail between the first and second shootings on Monday morning.
NBC plans to air portions of the video on 'NBC Nightly News' Wednesday night.
posted
The NY Times has a summary of the materials.
The effect on me was to piss me off. He blames absolutely everyone else. What a childish, evil, broken person. If the effect he wanted was to make everyone feel guilty, it should do the opposite. He was clearly bonkers.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm having trouble because I have such conflicted feelings about this.
First, this is horrible. Obviously, shatteringly horrible. I can't begin to empathize with those close to the victims and would give almost anything to turn back time.
At the same time though, I feel sorry for Seung-Hui. I can't really figure out what to do with this feeling. After reading his plays and the recent articles and looking at the pictures I can't help but believe he was extremely tormented. What he went through must have been horrible; whether physical or sexual childhood abuse or the ostracizing trauma that any picked on school kid would feel, he was, IMO, obviously tortured.
I know this in no way excuses what he's done, but it introduces a perspective of a killer that heretofore hasn't been seen, and it disturbs me how much I feel sorry for him.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:At the university, people placed flowers on a table holding his picture and a lit candle. "We remember him as a great specialist in aeronautics. He left behind hundreds of prestigious papers," said professor Nicolae Serban Tomescu.
I was tearing up as I read, and when I got to this, I laughed a bit. It sounds so cold on the face of it, but I guess it's one of the highest compliments a fellow academic could make, and one way I know I'd enjoy being remembered.
I can't read the macabre details and stories and plays and links, and CNN drives me nuts with their insistence that I watch footage. But I can handle reading the "good" stories, the heroic side of humanity. I hope I never end up in a situation like this, but if I do, I hope I have the courage and wits to act as Dr. Librescu did.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
His play with Richard McBeef reads like a child's twisted reinterpretation of MacBeth. The other one reads like a teenage angst fantasy / tragedy. Both are highly contrived and poorly written, but nothing I wouldn't be able to find equals to using internet searches of wannabe writers soaking their angst into their horrible writing. The other behavior seems to indicate a self destructive personality, which would have warranted intervention but not trigger any response from authorities that could have prevented what he finally did. The kid seemed to have a history of depression and obsessive behavior, from current accounts, but it is still a large leap from that to the psychopathic behavior he eventually engaged in. We can't treat all cases of overly depressed young adults like they are going to become mass murderers. That would be inviting worse treatment of those who I would think need positive help, not negative reinforcement of their worldview.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just hope this doesn't cause all the crazy depressed suicidal people in the world to be even more ostracized and persecuted. Somehow I don't think that will help.
Reading the profiles of the people killed is heartbreaking. Especially looking at their myspace pages. So much hopeful human potential destroyed, and so many happy lives cut short.
As individuals gain more and more power through technology, (for instance, in the future individuals might be able to make nuclear weapons in a basement lab) we need to think very very hard about how we can make events like this less likely. I think that includes trying to understand things from the point of view of people like Cho who aren't thinking clearly.
I agree with what Katie and others have said that you can't forcibly detain someone who hasn't made any clear threats or done anything wrong. You can't lock them up in advance just in case, because they're weird. Maybe the answer would lie in some sort of intense outpouring of kindness and concern for people who are seen to be struggling. I really don't know. Almost everyone is struggling in some way or another.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: NBC said it had acted responsibly in showing the images, which it said represented a small fraction of what it had received.
quote: "We had planned to speak to some family members of victims this morning but they canceled their appearances because they were very upset with NBC for airing the images," said NBC's "Today" morning program co-host Meredith Vieira.
quote: Police handling the investigation into the shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia also expressed disappointment at the airing of the images and rants by Cho Seung-Hui
quote: While NBC acknowledged that the material from Cho was likely devastating to the victims' families and that its news division was split over whether to air the material, NBC News President Steve Capus defended the decision to do so.
quote: NBC, which allowed other news outlets to use some of the images, said its news division would limit use of the video to "no more than 10 percent of air time."
"We have covered this story, and our unique role in it, with extreme sensitivity."
posted
No more than 10% of air time? *blink* Is that a limitation?
----
*sigh* I remember when they justified printing the Unabomber's manifesto because they believed it might actually save some lives and/or lead to his arrest. At the time, I bought this argument but pointed out that this would be a dangerous precedent, because it would exist as a temptation to future killers.
NBC has not only given in to temptation, but has created further -- and far more dangerous -- precedent.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
There are a number of reasons. One of them is that it provides an interestingly open look into his demented psychological state. I'm going to make a rudimentary guess: he will turn out to have a diagnosis of paranoid personality disorder and possibly also borderline personality disorder.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why? He clearly WAS evil. If there is to be any useful definition of the word "evil," it has to include killing 32 people and advertising the event on NBC.
Now, he may have been evil for a reason, but that's the case for any evil person. Evil is not some separate diagnosis; it's a symptom, not a cause.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
What bothers me most about NBC airing this stuff is that they, to me, obviously did so for the shear ratings boost associated with showing it. I'm not a huge fan of modern news media in any form any longer, having studied journalism at least a little bit and knowing that very little real journalism is actually involved anymore.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is no DNA test for a definitive diagnosis of the above-mentioned psychiatric disorders.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's nice to see that CNN and NYT have gone back to focusing on the victims rather than the coverage. Hopefully that means there are a number of people ashamed of themselves.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Boris, I quit a semi-lucrative job as a freelance journalist a few years ago for precisely that reason. I was unhappy with the stories I was being asked to write.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
Sounds at least a little genetic to me. I can think of a least three families with mental disorders that I would call very much inherited.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
1. That still doesn't provide a diagnosis. Since he is dead, it is, at best, still a guess.
2. There are lots of broken people who don't go on murdering rampages, and I would bet that there are at least a few people with murder in their hearts who never take action on it because it is, on top of horrific and evil, a really stupid thing to do. I think this particular person was both.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
He was clearly messed up and now he is dead so what do the specifics matter, such as if he was evil or schizophrenic, except perhaps to his parents? Would such information help prevent future cases such as this? I think not. It's just exploiting a tragedy, and spending time not talking about more relevant stuff.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Why? What is an evil person but someone who commits evil?
People do evil things all the time - that doesn't make them evil. I'd wager that every president we've ever had has done something unintentionally that turned out to be evil - things that probably resulted in far worse consequences than anything this young man did. That doesn't mean every president has been evil.
Calling something evil is a statement about the intrinsic character of that thing, not just the impact that that thing has upon the world given its circumstances. You might call war evil because it intrinsicly involves killing people, and thus is immoral by nature. For a person to be evil, it would have to be the same way.
But this is exactly why I don't believe there is any such thing as an evil person. People don't intrinsically desire to do evil. Rather, they do evil because their circumstances distort evil to make it appear to be the correct decision. They may appear evil to us, who cannot fathom what it is like to be in such as messed up mind - but I believe that to be an illusion. In this case, it seems the shooter had convinced himself he had to do what he did, that it was some sort of justice. That doesn't make him evil; it just makes him wrong, and probably crazy.
In any event, don't confuse committing evil with being evil. There are many many instances in which people have done evil but were clearly not evil.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Would such information help prevent future cases such as this? I think not.
You don't know that. Especially if it raised awareness about mental health and not in a negative way. I think that's incredibly relevant.
That would be incredibly dangerous. Paranoid schizophrenia does not lead someone to shoot 32 innocent people. All too often I see calls to locate and isolate markers that would make someone dangerous in a certain sadistic manner, and every time I see the focus go to something that may have played a factor but is not what caused the person to act that way. Behavior like Cho's and the shooters in Columbine required a certain level of sociopathy that there is no repeatable test for, it is something that requires a different assessment technique for different types of people. There are just not enough resources out there to fully test everyone for the psychopathic and sociopathic markers that might (and only might) make them such a risk. The benefit would not balance the cost, and could possibly lead to more ostrization and amplification of those traits, pushing more people over the edge.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm assuming at this point that everyone has seen "the photo" - Cho holding two pistols at arms length, black gloves, militaryish vest, etc.
I swear I've seen that exact pose in an anime somewhere, with the character wearing a very similar costume. On one of the pictures showiung that photo projected on a tv, which washes out a lot of detail, it even looks like an anime frame.
I know lots of friends who have staged photos in attempts to recreate anime poses - either at Halloween, a con, or some other similar event. It's a fairly common activity among fandom.
I know I could easily be projecting that photo onto whatever memory I have that is similar, but my recollection is such that I suspect it to be an intentional recreation. Has anyone else thought this, or am I imagining things?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it is very relevant to know why the shooter did why he did, since I think that once we understand his motives, we will be more easily able to see the same behavior in others and acknowledge that they have the same characteristics as this shooter, and that action can be taken before that person goes on a killing ramapage as well. Most importantly, I don't know about others, but this is a horrific tragedy, and I want to understand why it happened, how someone could do this to other people. Understanding the shooter and his motives is a huge part of explaining why something so horrible happened.
Now, I don't excuse his behavior and certainly there are others who has experienced what he has experienced who don't go on killing rampages, but I think once taking into account everything that has been said about him, and our now understanding of how he lived, and I can understand to a certain extent why the whole of all his bad experiences have led him to do this. From what I can gather from all the news articles and quotes about him, he had a difficult childhood where he immigrated from another country not knowing the language very well, and was an object of abuse and ridicule at the hands of other students, and where he lived in poverty. The blame does not lie with those students, but I believe it caused him psychological damage that is a piece of the puzzle of why he did what he did. I may be wrong, but weren't the shootings at Columbine also due to being made fun of by other students? It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it's perfectly awful nonetheless, especially in elementary and middle schools, when cliques develop and those outside them are ridiculed and made fun of because they don't fit the status quo. To be honest, I think kids can be very cruel and very mean, and I think the fault lies with their parents. As much as mob mentality develops and people want to belong, and sometimes that means joining in on a group ridiculing another group or individual, parents need to teach their kids some basic semblance of respecting others, that you don't make fun of someone because they talk differently or they're quiet. I think it leads to a feeling of ostracism, and seclusion, that eventually leads to anger and desire for revenge against those that made you feel that way. He probably grew up resenting people richer than him, and associated them with the people who made his childhood so difficult, until the psychosis grew and expanded until he snapped the day of the massacre. Certainly his sister faced the same economic situation and perhaps ridicule from other students, but there's no way to know unless she comes forward, and she has been able to build a life for herself, so there's no way to know whether it's genetic, or perhaps him and his sister process things in very different ways; with his sister, it made her stronger so she could lead a good life, and with him, it became too much for him to handle.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I'm assuming at this point that everyone has seen "the photo" - Cho holding two pistols at arms length, black gloves, militaryish vest, etc.
I swear I've seen that exact pose in an anime somewhere, with the character wearing a very similar costume. On one of the pictures showiung that photo projected on a tv, which washes out a lot of detail, it even looks like an anime frame.
I know lots of friends who have staged photos in attempts to recreate anime poses - either at Halloween, a con, or some other similar event. It's a fairly common activity among fandom.
I know I could easily be projecting that photo onto whatever memory I have that is similar, but my recollection is such that I suspect it to be an intentional recreation. Has anyone else thought this, or am I imagining things?
I didn't think "anime" in particular, but I'm not surprised given anime's tendancy to be highly contrived from other sources. It looked to me like a typical comic book hero pose or an attempt to look like an action movie hero.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by J_84: I think it is very relevant to know why the shooter did why he did, since I think that once we understand his motives, we will be more easily able to see the same behavior in others and acknowledge that they have the same characteristics as this shooter, and that action can be taken before that person goes on a killing ramapage as well.
That's all well and good, but all too often it leads to perfectly harmless people being singled out and ostracized in a very, very painful way, creating many more problems for that person down the line. *eyes old high school*
quote:To be honest, I think kids can be very cruel and very mean, and I think the fault lies with their parents.
I agree with the first part but not the second part. Part of the horror of growing up is being around other immature beings, and casual cruelty is a barbarism that seems very in place with an immature mindset. It is definitely something to be overcome, but that it exists is not something to blame the parents for.
quote:with him, it became too much for him to handle.
I think it is resiliency - that's where the mentally ill part comes in. Even if he wasn't full-fledged bonkers (sorry for the nontechnical language; I don't know enough to use it correctly), he definitely did not have the skills or possibly the mental resilience needed to handle the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
I think his mental world was chaos and had been for a long time.
Then again, lots of people become broken in and by life and do not resort to killing people. That takes something extra. That something extra is the monstrocity.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I didn't think "anime" in particular, but I'm not surprised given anime's tendancy to be highly contrived from other sources. It looked to me like a typical comic book hero pose or an attempt to look like an action movie hero.
That's what I would think if it weren't triggering a specific memory of a very brief scene - it shows that small isolated twitch that specifies either fear or anger, zooms in on the face, then the scene switches to close ups with the weird stop motion bullet firing thing in a lot of anime. Then it stops, pulls back slowly, and the enemies are all dead but a single hole starts bleeding in his chest. It's a heroic death being portrayed, but also a shocking one, because you think he managed to survive.
I very likely could be mashing up two different visual impressions (certainly that scene is a pretty common type), but it doesn't feel that way, if this makes sense. It feels specific, like trying to remember someone's name, not general like "what does this remind me of."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
