There is a letter that is read ove the pulpit every election cycle urging members to go and vote. Recently, a new sentence has been added that said that issues relevant to members of the church can be found in the platforms of both major parties.
In other words, the official urging of members to vote is now refuting that precise meme.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I wonder if they will change the new sentence if we get a Mormon Independent in office. I suspect they put in that sentence because Bush has hurt the Republican Party. Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Do you really think that? *puzzled* I thought it was because there was this meme out there that in order to be Mormon you have to Republican. If there was any one person who was an impetus, I'll bet it was Harry Reid.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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You know, when they "Called" Granpa Andersen, and his family, to be Democrats, they didn't have to talk very hard. He was a good mentor for all his kids and many of his grandkids, especially with his many years of service as an official in the Box Elder County "Farmers for FDR" Committee. He always felt bad about the negative influence that "That Darn Clark" had on David McKay(another prominant Democrat). Harry Reid is my man in Washington.
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No, I really don't think that. I am just joking around. One of my favorite essays by OSC is where he talked about either the Christians hijacking the republican party or the republican party hijacking Christianity. I can't remember which did what according to OSC.
I do remember the pleasant surprise at finding out he is Democrat, and I was impressed with his ability to divorce politics from religion.
I do think the meme exists because there is a lot of truth to the cultural aspects of the Church being republican. I would not be surprised if 80-90 percent of Utah Mormons are Republican.
I think the Republican Party exploitation of gay marriage and abortion has caused this divide.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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James E. Faust, Second Counselor in the First Presidency of the church is a lifelong Democrat.
"Faust served in the House of Representatives for the 28th Utah State Legislature (1949) as a Democrat for Utah's eighth district...President Faust also served as chairperson of the Utah State Democratic Party."
While the church body certainly is seems to be more right leaning than left, I think it could easily go the other way in different parts of the country/world that don't have the same political traditions prevelant in Utah and Idaho.
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I see a slight change in LDS and Democrat alignment from a change in demographics and some Mormons starting to feel disrespected and used by Evangelical Republicans. There is still a strong disgareement about some Democratic platforms that needs to change before a large portion of LDS change sides.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: I see a slight change in LDS and Democrat alignment from a change in demographics and some Mormons starting to feel disrespected and used by Evangelical Republicans.
MrSquicky has been trying to get this point across for years. I guess it finally took a situation like Romney to really make anyone consider his point though.
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He's always saying something and doing something else. He's always down on Massachussans except when they're himself. I hate to have to say it, but I very firmly feel Mitt Romney's not an asset to the party.
I'd like to say a word on his behalf: Mitt Romney has great staff.
How do you solve a problem like Mitt Romney? How do you vote for someone with no God? Can good fundamentalists trust Mitt Romney? A Mormon blasphemer! Polygamist! He's odd!
Many a thing he says you like just plenty. Many a thing he says is just some slop. He's religious in the wrong way, but at least he's no fan of gays, and lately he says abortion's got to stop.
Oh, how do you solve a problem like Mitt Romney? How can we put a Mormon over top?
posted
That's hilarious. I just read it to my roommates, one of whom works for Mitt Romney's campaign. She wasn't amused, but I kind of am.
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While surfing the channels on TV just now I ran across an ad on one of the church channels. What caught my attention was watching "Mormon" pop up on the screen. It was quickly followed by a punch of other names randomly appearing on the screen, ranging from Scientologist to Buddhist, Jehovah's Witness to Aethiest. Of course they put Mormon between Islam and Hindu.
Recently I ran across an article that was visciously anti-Intelligent Design. Why? Did it suggest that science and Evolution were good? No. It was anti-ID because ID didn't mention Jesus Christ as our savior. Separation of Church and State isn't crossed unless the state tries to tell you how to pray to Jesus.
What does all this mean?
It means that some people are just nuts.
Some of them are Christians. Some of them aren't.
You can point to them in those groups that disagree with you, but don't be surprised if those groups point to the nuts in your group too.
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I think there's a certain irony, certainly, that Mormons are desperately trying to tell everyone that Romney's faith has nothing to do with his ability to be president, but also knowing a gay, Muslim, Jewish, or atheist president would never be elected because of those particular things/beliefs.
quote:I do remember the pleasant surprise at finding out he is Democrat, and I was impressed with his ability to divorce politics from religion.
How do you figure that? Most of his essays regarding social issues, such as gay marriage or abortion, seem quite heavily influenced by his religious views.
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: [QB] I think there's a certain irony, certainly, that Mormons are desperately trying to tell everyone that Romney's faith has nothing to do with his ability to be president, but also knowing a gay, Muslim, Jewish, or atheist president would never be elected because of those particular things/beliefs.
I still haven't heard of a big, general push by Mormons to get Romney elected. And I can't see how Romney can help being influenced by his faith. He's desperately trying to deny it, perhaps. I don't see why he thinks that's necessary.
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I haven't heard hordes of Mormons -- *or* Romney -- desperately trying to convince us his faith is irrelevant! Has this really happened? (And how desperate was it?)
But if it happened, Steve Taylor had it pegged:
I'm devout, I'm sincere, and I'm proud to say That it's had exactly no effect on who I am today I believe for the benefit of all mankind In the total separation of church and mind -- "It's a Personal Thing"
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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There won't be a big "official" push by us to get him elected. Sure, the heavy influence of the majority of Mormons being Republican can seem to be a push. But simply put it ain't happening.
On a side note, he ain't even the first Republican I'd consider voting for. And yes even though I consider myself Democrat, I have voted Republican and would again if it felt right.
(Southern aint's included on purpose.) Posts: 176 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: I think there's a certain irony, certainly, that Mormons are desperately trying to tell everyone
Hitoshi, we're individual people, not a throng of zombie-like beings who all share the same opinion.
The Church does not endorse candidates whether they're members or not. I think the way you're phrasing this gives the wrong impression.
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: I think there's a certain irony, certainly, that Mormons are desperately trying to tell everyone
Hitoshi, we're individual people, not a throng of zombie-like beings who all share the same opinion.
The Church does not endorse candidates whether they're members or not. I think the way you're phrasing this gives the wrong impression.
I'm not an uneducated fellow, you know. I know that Mormonism, like any religion, is a large group of individual people.
But considering how many times people refer to "the gay community" as some sort of zombie-like horde hell-bent on destroying Life, Morality, and the American Way, I figured, "Hey, if everyone else can do it to me..." OSC does it enough, certainly. Apparently we're all whining brats who want to steal the privileged place of marriage away from him, who knew?
At any rate, the reason I said it in the first place was a generalization to make the point that Romney and some Mormons are trying to be accepted as a non-heretical religion by Evangelicals, and Romney as a competent person no matter his personal beliefs. I find this ironic because it's exactly what minorities, like gays, have been trying to do too.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Is there a way to ignore Hitoshi? There is a one track mind that gets in the way of every single conversation on Mormonism (and I think every other conversation I have read) that exists. You don't like Mormons because of the position the Church holds on gays. WE GET IT ALREADY!
err....yes. You don't pay attention to them. Was this a trick question?
I think Hitoshi contributed to this and other threads, but if you disagree, you are certainly free to ignore him. It's not difficult.
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I long and yearn for an "ignore" button that I could use for specific posters, but alas, there is presently no such function. Maybe in the new forum.
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Ignore functions would make controversial topics VERY hard to comprehend as people would wonder why theirs posts are being ignored or why certain people did not respond to a post directed to them.
I would be strongly against an ignore funtion.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I would love an ignore button, too. I think it would work just fine, and improve the level of discourse greatly. One thing I've seen on hatrack for a long time, and the main reason I no longer participate much in serious threads, is that we start to discuss some interesting topic, then someone comes in and acts like a jerk. The thing that happens next is that the interesting respectful conversation get completely derailed by people responding to the jerkiness, even if respectfully, and then it's even worse if other people act jerky in response to the original jerkiness. I hate that.
Yet for some reason, people just aren't able to continue the high-level, respectful-even-though-deeply-opinionated, positive and fruitful exchange of ideas and feelings and thoughts. Instead it degnerates into lots of people acting jerky.
We've been able to do it sometimes over the years on hatrack. We've been able to discuss highly charged, deeply felt issues with consideration, respect, and a shared assumption that everyone has a right to their opinion, and that everyone's motives are good, and that we all are intelligent and mean well. Discussions like that are wonderful things, and the more wonderful for the fact that they're so rare.
I think an "ignore" button (ignore list) would be a great boon to intelligent, rational, sane, and high-level discourse on hatrack. I would love to give it a try. Is there any forum software that lets you do that?
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quote: How do you figure that? Most of his essays regarding social issues, such as gay marriage or abortion, seem quite heavily influenced by his religious views.
I should clarify that I am impressed that OSC is able to divorce "political affiliation" from religion. He makes a distinction that neither party does or should represent a religion. That impresses me because I am sick of hearing about the "Christian Right," and I disagree with the concept.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I get the parallels but not the irony. Unless you consider that OSC speaks for all Mormons. He doesn't.
I suppose I have an odd sense of humor then. And yes, I know he doesn't.
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: Is there a way to ignore Hitoshi? There is a one track mind that gets in the way of every single conversation on Mormonism (and I think every other conversation I have read) that exists. You don't like Mormons because of the position the Church holds on gays. WE GET IT ALREADY! next . . .
I think it says more about you than it does about me that you explode into an annoyed anger because I focus my writing on a topic that's both personal and one tat I feel passionately about. And please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't "[dis]like Mormons because of the position the Church holds on gays." I dislike anyone, of any religion, that looks down on me because of who I am. You don't like people who write according to a single issue they are personally affected by. I get it. I suppose I should this means that because I don't write about a multitude of subjects I don't really care as much about, I'm a waste of space on this forum. Am I understanding your statement correctly?
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:Is there a way to ignore Hitoshi?
err....yes. You don't pay attention to them. Was this a trick question? I think Hitoshi contributed to this and other threads, but if you disagree, you are certainly free to ignore him. It's not difficult.
Thank you, Squick. Occ, as Squick said, you're free to ignore anything I write. I'm not forcing, or even asking, that anyone read what I write. It's a public internet forum after all; it exists primarily as a discussion area in which anyone can throw in their two cents and have it ignored or discussed further. Of course, I disagree withthe idea of ignoring someone merely because they say soemthing that annoys us or goes against our beliefs. It may not be fun to read, but it's rather pointless to go to a discussion forum where you block out everyone you disagree with, eh?
quote:Originally posted by lem:
quote: How do you figure that? Most of his essays regarding social issues, such as gay marriage or abortion, seem quite heavily influenced by his religious views.
I should clarify that I am impressed that OSC is able to divorce "political affiliation" from religion. He makes a distinction that neither party does or should represent a religion. That impresses me because I am sick of hearing about the "Christian Right," and I disagree with the concept.
Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. In that case, I do agree with you. Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:At any rate, the reason I said it in the first place was a generalization to make the point that Romney and some Mormons are trying to be accepted as a non-heretical religion by Evangelicals, and Romney as a competent person no matter his personal beliefs. I find this ironic because it's exactly what minorities, like gays, have been trying to do too.
Here's the thing: everyone already gets that gays can be competent people. It is not in dispute. It is possible to disagree with one activity that someone does without believing him or her to be incompetent. Where did that even come from?
The Romney/LDS thing is a good illustration. Romney's supporters (a group that is not the same as "Mormons") are not trying to convince evangelicals that LDS is not heretical by evangelical standards (it is, by those standards). They just want people to believe that he would be a good President. There is a difference between accepting everything about someone and hiring him, and a good thing too or none of us would have jobs.
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:everyone already gets that gays can be competent people.
That's not true. OSC himself wrote that their dark secret is how many of them are victims of sexual abuse, trapped in a lifestyle that they hate by the consequences of this and has compared them wanting to obtain legal marriages as children playing dress up in their parents clothes and said that they want this because they have been deluded into thinking that it will gain them something.
That's a whole mess of acusations of incompetence in some important areas leveled at a whole group of people.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Ignore functions would make controversial topics VERY hard to comprehend as people would wonder why theirs posts are being ignored or why certain people did not respond to a post directed to them.
I would be strongly against an ignore funtion.
[Done properly, I think this is avoidable. If a person on your ignore list posts, you would see:
with options to enable or disable your ignore list in a given thread or globally. That said, I'm not a fan of ignore lists because I've seen their use degenerate to "La la la la, we're ignoring you!" and other playground antics, but hey, it works in some places.]
quote:everyone already gets that gays can be competent people.
That's not true. OSC himself wrote that their dark secret is how many of them are victims of sexual abuse, trapped in a lifestyle that they hate by the consequences of this and has compared them wanting to obtain legal marriages as children playing dress up in their parents clothes and said that they want this because they have been deluded into thinking that it will gain them something.
That's a whole mess of acusations of incompetence in some important areas leveled at a whole group of people.
Perhaps so but that is not one of them. I did not read that article but what you quoted suggested that gay people have a problem, not that they are incompetent. It is possible to have a problem and be competent, and that is a good thing too, or we would all be incompetent.
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" It may not be fun to read, but it's rather pointless to go to a discussion forum where you block out everyone you disagree with, eh?"
Its not about disagreeing. It is about hearing a broken record that seems to send every discussion into the same track, even when it never was going in that direction. It comes close to trolling.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:everyone already gets that gays can be competent people.
That's not true. OSC himself wrote that their dark secret is how many of them are victims of sexual abuse, trapped in a lifestyle that they hate by the consequences of this and has compared them wanting to obtain legal marriages as children playing dress up in their parents clothes and said that they want this because they have been deluded into thinking that it will gain them something.
That's a whole mess of acusations of incompetence in some important areas leveled at a whole group of people.
Perhaps so but that is not one of them. I did not read that article but what you quoted suggested that gay people have a problem, not that they are incompetent. It is possible to have a problem and be competent, and that is a good thing too, or we would all be incompetent.
Ah, ok, I think I see your point. The only footnote is that any personal, non-mainstream beliefs do become qualifiers for one's competency in any political arena; a Muslim, woman, black, etc. person running for any office has that characteristic used to judge their competency when they run for office, but not as a regular human being.
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: " It may not be fun to read, but it's rather pointless to go to a discussion forum where you block out everyone you disagree with, eh?"
Its not about disagreeing. It is about hearing a broken record that seems to send every discussion into the same track, even when it never was going in that direction. It comes close to trolling.
I was pointing out a parallel I saw between minorities downplaying their minority status (you will notice I included other minorities, yes?) and the problems Romney faces with trying to downplay the importance of his Mormon beliefs in his ability to be a good President. This was still on topic. It's not as though I came into a topic about favorite colors and began ranting.
If it is trolling, then I leave it up to the mods to decide as they see fit how to handle it.
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I noticed the group of minorities the first time you posted. Didn't comment on that. The second time you posted was a theme you have repeated often and noticed that was the direction you were going to take.
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I think an ignore function would be great although I would not use it for anyone posting on this thread so far.
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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Romney does have kind of a dilemma, because he belongs to a church that is not concerned about entering the Christian mainstream or advancing its views by getting people into political office. Romney knows he'll never receive any kind of official backing from the LDS church. And even if he did manage to get the majority of Mormons to vote for him, that wouldn't carry him very far. I imagine he wants to separate himself from the church a bit so he doesn't become a one-plank candidate, on a plank that won't get him very far.
All power to him if he can do that smoothly. But I sincerely hope he doesn't try to convince people that his religion isn't influencing how he thinks and acts as a politician.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: All power to him if he can do that smoothly. But I sincerely hope he doesn't try to convince people that his religion isn't influencing how he thinks and acts as a politician.
IMO, both his desire to double the size of Guantanamo Bay and endorsement of 'enhanced interrogation techniques' indicate that he is able to stop his religion from influencing his political positions.
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I think this media discussion with Richard Bushman is a must read! Him and Terryl Givens are my current Mormon intellectual heroes. I love reading and listening to them.
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Yeah, I think that Jack Chick summed up mormons pretty well. That man sure does have a handle on things! I wonder what he has to say about Catholicism.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Brian J. Hill: Trying to figure out what Romney believes based on what other Mormons have said in the past, or the present, is foolish.
Trying to figure out what Romeny believes based on what HE says in the past, or the present is foolish.
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