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Author Topic: And I thought only forums had uh... we'll you'll understand. :(
Blayne Bradley
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Well my dad has this friend and I did some work for him, and we had an intense discussion nothing violently hostile but something that in the end leaves me unhappy and frustrated.

1) He believes that Western Civilization and the US Congress is controlled by the Vatican/Pope all based on Kennedy supposedly saying "who are you going to listen to? The people or the Pope?" and supposedly said Pope.

2) That he believes it because he knows it true.

3) When I answered how quite logically the moon can have dust storms due to the moon dust being charged positive and negatively based on their respective side of the moon it is a "half truth" and believes that the Lunar landing is a hoax all because supposedly the Russians gave a press conference how "neither side" made it to the moon which to me is blatantly false as I have never heard of the Russians ever making said press statement ever, the Soviets would've jumped on the propoganda gold mine of a US attempt to fake the moon landing.


I am so sad now who teaches these things.

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MattP
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Wow. Never met one of those in real life.
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King of Men
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Never mind all that nonsense; could you give Dano a hefty kick in the pants and make him tell us whether or not he'll show up on Saturday? Better still, he should read my PMs and respond.
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mr_porteiro_head
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When I was in Brazil, one day I asked a dozen or so people whether they believed that Americans had really traveled to the moon. About half thought it had happened, and about half thought that it was all lies.
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Mucus
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How did that subject come up?
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mr_porteiro_head
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My missionary companion (a Brazilian) told me that he thought it didn't happen. I said he was crazy. He told me that lots of people don't believe it. I didn't believe him, so I went out to prove him wrong. I failed.
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Nick
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That sounds just like my high school English teacher.
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brojack17
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I don't get how people can believe that. It seems crazy to me.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
When I was in Brazil, one day I asked a dozen or so people whether they believed that Americans had really traveled to the moon. About half thought it had happened, and about half thought that it was all lies.

Hey I tried the same thing in Taiwan, approx half the people asked would say they think it was staged. But I think that is because most people saw the first half of National Geographic's, "The Final Report: The Lunar Landing."

But then again most people in newly industrialized/third world countries see the X-Files and believe at least SOME of it is based in truth.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by brojack17:
I don't get how people can believe that. It seems crazy to me.

It doesn't seem as crazy when you live somewhere where modern technology isn't so ubiquitous and the vast majority cannot even afford an automobile.
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Steev
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The last statistic I heard was that over one third of the US population didn't believe it ever happened.
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katharina
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I'd be interested in seeing a source for that number.
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Steev
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It came from a silly Fox network program several years ago where they gave voice to the moon landing hoax belivers.

I'll bet the airing of that show caused the stat to go up anyway.

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Xavier
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quote:
It came from a silly Fox network program several years ago where they gave voice to the moon landing hoax belivers.
Yeah, and I think very unfriendly thoughts about the producers of that show.

I try not to hold it against Jonathan Frakes, but I am still angry at him for hosting that pile of crap.

(am I remembering correctly? He was the host, right?)

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DarkKnight
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I know in some High Schools in my area students are shown the 'moon landing is a hoax' videos and then are encouraged after watching the videos to drawn their own conclusions. The teachers do not show anything or discuss anything about the moon landings actually happening.
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the doctor
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkKnight:
I know in some High Schools in my area students are shown the 'moon landing is a hoax' videos and then are encouraged after watching the videos to drawn their own conclusions. The teachers do not show anything or discuss anything about the moon landings actually happening.

where do you live? What High Schools are doing this?
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Xaposert
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quote:
I am so sad now who teaches these things.
Don't be so surprised. I'm sure you have plenty of things you believe that others would consider goofy.

Most people I know believe some silly things sometimes. But it is much better when those bizarre mistaken beliefs are pieces of trivia that don't relate to daily life often (such as believing nobody landed on the moon) rather than when they have bizarre mistaken beliefs about important matters to their everyday lives (such as believing people of a certain race are inferior to another.)

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DarkKnight
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East Penn HS, Dieruff HS, Allen HS all in PA
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Tarrsk
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Except that those "pieces of trivia that don't relate to daily life" can and do have broad real-world effects. I have a friend who works for the Space Studies Board who gets very upset about skepticism about the moon landings, as it is leading to a general skepticism about human space travel (and space science in general) among Americans. If you believe, as both she and I do, that exploration and eventual exploitation of the solar system is critical to the long-term interests of humankind, then conspiracy theories like "the moon landings were faked" do have a direct, and very negative, impact.

But then, I'm of the opinion that while ignorance is forgivable, willful stupidity is not.

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Damien.m
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Im sorry but Im of the 'it never happened' minority.
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Belle
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Damien, please read this.

It's fine to be in the minority on things, I'm in the minority on a lot of things, but this is an issue where there really is good, solid evidential reasons to believe something took place. And I do believe it did. This page does a good job of laying out the arguments against the moon landing having happened and refuting them. Just read it, and see if you still want to remain in that minority.

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the doctor
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quote:
Originally posted by Damien.m:
Im sorry but Im of the 'it never happened' minority.

edited:
Belle was more helpful than I.

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Damien.m
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Yeah you're right. I was only ever suspicious because of the radiation belt but that article has an answer for that.

At the moment Im interested in the LUNA moon base theory. Link. Most of it is complete nonsense of course but theres just enough fun stuff to entertain me!

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GaalDornick
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I think it's even stupider when people say Bush organized the 9/11 attacks.
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MrSquicky
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quote:
I think it's even stupider when people say Bush organized the 9/11 attacks.
My cat's breath smells like cat-food.
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Blayne Bradley
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im certain the person i talked to would believe it was all staged by the Pope.
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Steev
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
im certain the person i talked to would believe it was all staged by the Pope.

[ROFL]

I'm propably going to hell for laughing at that.

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Nick
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Only if you believe the Pope is holy. [Wink]
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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
When I was in Brazil, one day I asked a dozen or so people whether they believed that Americans had really traveled to the moon. About half thought it had happened, and about half thought that it was all lies.

That's fascinating. I had a woman (a good Mormon woman, btw) who absolutely did not believe that men had ever gone to the moon. That was the first I had ever heard of anyone even questioning it. She was otherwise pretty smart, as far as I could tell. Blew my mind at the time.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by KarlEd:
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
When I was in Brazil, one day I asked a dozen or so people whether they believed that Americans had really traveled to the moon. About half thought it had happened, and about half thought that it was all lies.

That's fascinating. I had a woman (a good Mormon woman, btw) who absolutely did not believe that men had ever gone to the moon. That was the first I had ever heard of anyone even questioning it. She was otherwise pretty smart, as far as I could tell. Blew my mind at the time.
My grandmother firmly believes that Dinosaurs are all a hoax created by scientists. Fossils were all synthetically created and all the studies of course are all accepted as fact as all these scientists are in perfect agreement about perpetrating this hoax. I really just think she has never had a chance to sit down and have it all explained to her properly.
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MightyCow
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My GF's grandma thinks Fox News is a reliable, unbiased source of current information. [Wink]
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
My GF's grandma thinks Fox News is a reliable, unbiased source of current information. [Wink]

I know people who think that the networks are. [Wink]
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The Reader
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quote:
My GF's grandma thinks Fox News is a reliable, unbiased source of current information.
quote:
I know people who think that the networks are.
This is part of why some people believe in conspiracy theories. They assume that news networks, and newspapers too, get all of their information from sources whose only goal is to deceive the masses, and even make up the news sometimes. Add this to a sociopathic distrust of everyone and a perverse definition of the word "skepticism," you get people who decide to believe in the opposite of whatever they are told, because they think they being deceived all of the time.

I think this is why we have moon landing, September 11th, and Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. That's just my opinion though. I know that there are political, personal, and professional motivations to lie for all of these reasons.

Incidentally, The networks do lean left and Fox News does lean right. It isn't a grand scheme to lie to us all, just a self-imposed and industry-activated motivation to give all of us our happy places.

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calaban
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When I saw "Conspiracy Theory" the movie I laughed throught the whole thing, 'cause I have heard it all before. You see, growing up my best friend and his family were the type that were always up on the latest scuttlebut in the conspiracy theory circles. So I've heard it all. Moon Landing hoaxes are the tip of the iceberg. If you want to hear some of the fun stuff listen to Coast to Coast with Art Bell.

According to some of these folks we have UN troops infiltrating the US ready to seize power, these are the guys that are making little towns out in the middle of Wyoming dissapear. Depending on who you talk too it's either the UN or government troops from the department of homeland security. They just go in and replace everyone!

Incidentally, most rock stars were actually CIA agents. People like Elvis and Jim Morrison who have supposedly died just became sick of the spy lifestyle and retired.

My current favorite is that 9\11 was planned by any combination of the Bush Administration, the UN, or the Evil International Bankers. You know the evilbankers I'm talking about; they run the Fed, Bank of England and any other international bank. They are the real cause of all wars, recessions, and depressions.

Paranoia of pervasive survailance is another interesting one; just because no one actually considers how prohibitive in cost and manpower big brothering even a small portion of the population would be.

I think there are many reasons that people(often highly intellegent)swallow conspiracy theories, but the primary one that I have seen revolves around individual pride; they believe because they like being the person who really knows . They like thinking that the wool can be pulled over the eyes of other people and that they are special because they can see through it all.

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The Reader
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quote:
I think there are many reasons that people(often highly intellegent)swallow conspiracy theories, but the primary one that I have seen revolves around individual pride; they believe because they like being the person who really knows . They like thinking that the wool can be pulled over the eyes of other people and that they are special because they can see through it all.
That is what I meant about scepticism. They think it means "disbelieve everything" instead of "think critically."

I know I said that before, but I'm replying because of the special hostility I have for 9/11 conspiracy theories. Believing in these sorts of things undermines any true attempt to end terrorism and create foreign and domestic policies that can do that.

People can be for or against any of the policies enacted and wars fought in the name of fighting terrorism, but the debate has to start with an honest belief in what really happened, not a mind-blowing attempt at creating facts for the benefit of crazy people.

As for Kennedy Assassination and Moon Landing theories, I can handle those. The impact the death of JFK had on America and the world isn't in question, but after such a long time a death becomes relatively inconsequential because no one really knows "what if."

Moon Landing theories are just stupid. I don't understand what motivation those people have except that they just don't want to believe the government.

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Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:

I think this is why we have moon landing, September 11th, and Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. That's just my opinion though. I know that there are political, personal, and professional motivations to lie for all of these reasons.

Incidentally, The networks do lean left and Fox News does lean right. It isn't a grand scheme to lie to us all, just a self-imposed and industry-activated motivation to give all of us our happy places.

Well, sometimes media bias, be it left or right, is a little more than a simple leaning from one view to another, it's more like throwing objectivity out the window.

You said yourself that there are political, personal and professional motivations for the "bending of truth" so to speak. That is why there will always be media bias toward one view or another. Simply thinking that networks information is unreliable for the most part and downright full-of-lies at times is hardly proof of one being a conspiracy theorist.

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The Reader
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quote:
You said yourself that there are political, personal and professional motivations for the "bending of truth" so to speak. That is why there will always be media bias toward one view or another. Simply thinking that networks information is unreliable for the most part and downright full-of-lies at times is hardly proof of one being a conspiracy theorist.
You're right, it's not proof of one being a conspiracy theorist. A news source having a bias doesn't mean that that source will be lying about the news. Different networks and newspapers will probably have different angles on the effects and causes of events, but if one is willing to get news from multiple places, then that person will probably be well-informed. The biases would cancel each other out so to speak.
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Nick
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Yes, but only if everybody went to multiple places to gather said information. Not everybody does. So no everybody is well-informed.

Sometimes it's more than bias, networks only report facts that paint the picture they want. Throughout recent history, both left and right biased networks have been guilty of this.

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The Reader
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I know. I was just wearing my rose-colored glasses.
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Iain
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quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:
quote:
My GF's grandma thinks Fox News is a reliable, unbiased source of current information.
quote:
I know people who think that the networks are.
This is part of why some people believe in conspiracy theories. They assume that news networks, and newspapers too, get all of their information from sources whose only goal is to deceive the masses, and even make up the news sometimes. Add this to a sociopathic distrust of everyone and a perverse definition of the word "skepticism," you get people who decide to believe in the opposite of whatever they are told, because they think they being deceived all of the time.

I have had a teacher in the past staying in a hotel in sight of one of the walls of Jerusalem. CNN said that there were riots all along that wall. The teacher said she left the hotel and drove the length of said wall; a few people milling around and some tourists, but that was all there was.
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Xaposert
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Nevertheless, FOX News takes bias to an entirely different level than the other major news networks. It seems to be the only major news network that is founded upon an intentional political bias as its primary purpose.
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DarkKnight
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quote:
Nevertheless, FOX News takes bias to an entirely different level than the other major news networks. It seems to be the only major news network that is founded upon an intentional political bias as its primary purpose.
Fox stands out because it takes a different bias from the other networks. Most networks lean left or lean very left so it makes Fox appear to be on an entirely different level
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Iain:
I have had a teacher in the past staying in a hotel in sight of one of the walls of Jerusalem. CNN said that there were riots all along that wall. The teacher said she left the hotel and drove the length of said wall; a few people milling around and some tourists, but that was all there was.

I was actually at an event that was reported with horrible and false bias by the press. I was at the front of a group of people who were marching quietly in commemoration of a rabbi who had died, when the police suddenly rode their horses into us and started smacking people with their batons. It was nighttime, and some of us were carrying candles, and some of those went flying as people dove for cover.

The next day, it was plastered all over the front page. Apparently I'd been part of a "violent demonstration where torches were hurled at police officers". Feh.

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Artemisia Tridentata
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I had some teenage friends in Mexico City ask me if I wanted to go to a rally where they were protesting a new Principal who had recently been named for their high school. He had no recent education experience and he was the Mayor's brother-in-law.
I went for a while and just sat on the curb and watched. It was pretty tame stuff, just a few signs and some chanting by the kids. (Also lots of flirting.) Later my Mom sent me clippings of the "Communist Riots" in Mexico. The attached newsphoto had been taken by someone standing directly behind me on the curb.

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Xaposert
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quote:
Fox stands out because it takes a different bias from the other networks. Most networks lean left or lean very left so it makes Fox appear to be on an entirely different level
No, Fox is definitely at an entirely different level. There are elements of the news segments that pretty clearly indicate someone at Fox News is consciously thinking "How can we make this story best support our political viewpoint?" That is not true for other major news networks. For instance, on Fox you will hear the insurgents in Iraq repeatedly referred to as "terrorist thugs" even in the supposedly impartial non-editorial news segments. It is clear they made a conscious effort to use a very slanted term. You won't hear a CNN segment calling them "freedom fighters".
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kmbboots
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DarkKnight, if you think that US corporately sponsored media is left leaning, you have very little perspective on the left-right spectrum in world politics. If you want to know which way media is biased, look at who pays for it. If it is people who have a stake in making money and keeping it, it is not "left leaning".
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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkKnight:
I know in some High Schools in my area students are shown the 'moon landing is a hoax' videos and then are encouraged after watching the videos to drawn their own conclusions. The teachers do not show anything or discuss anything about the moon landings actually happening.

Hey DarkKnight, do you have anything to back this up with? A published account, perhaps?

The reason I ask is that I went ahead and contacted two of the high schools you listed (I couldn't find the third one listed online). I've exchanged e-mails with the principal of one of the two schools and, well, he's pretty adamant that this never happened as part of a regular lesson in History or Science. He said that perhaps there might have been a unit at some time covering the ridiculous nature of what some people believed about the technology associated with going to the Moon, but he doesn't recall it actually EVER happening or being used. Certainly never in the way you described it.

I'd like to hear from the other principal(s) of course, but at least for one of the schools your statement appears to be false.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
DarkKnight, if you think that US corporately sponsored media is left leaning, you have very little perspective on the left-right spectrum in world politics.
*raises hand*

I think that the mainstream corporately-owned media generally leans left. It's not all about money and money issues, and it is possible to lean left in one way and right in another.

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Steev
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
*raises hand*

I think that the mainstream corporately-owned media generally leans left. It's not all about money and money issues, and it is possible to lean left in one way and right in another.

Isn't there a word for that?
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DarkKnight
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Hey DarkKnight, do you have anything to back this up with? A published account, perhaps?

Yes I do. I work for two of those HS (same district) so I have first hand information that this is occuring. I know the two teachers personally and up until the day I debated with them about it, they only showed the Moon Landing Hoax film.
Keep in mind that this school district also covered up a 12 year old student raping 4 other students in one of the elementary schools so having them deny an outside request for information is a standard practice.

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