quote:Plus, Nubians are meatier than most dairy breeds, so they produce really nice meat kids when bred to Boers.
This is one of the reasons I got a Nubian. She will eventually be bred with Boer. She is a skinny thang though!
quote:Unfortunately, I believe Ohio takes the lead as the strictest state in regards to raw milk. You can't even sell it for pet food here. The Department of Agriculture seems to be bent on wiping out all raw milk drinking in the state. The good news is that a few months ago an Ohio judge ruled that properly contracted herd-share agreements aren't illegal, so maybe the tide is beginning to turn.
Zoiks! Darned if I'm ever moving to Ohio. I hope the tide turns. Whatever you may believe about raw milk, those laws are ridiculous.
Mel, have you considered LaManchas? They are a relatively new (created in Oregon) and less popular breed (people dislike the lack of ears) but aside from being extremely mild in temperment, they also have good butterfat and good volume. The averages say otherwise, but I think that is because there are too many "bad eggs" out there bringing the average down.
quote:Out of curiosity, what is the rationale for that?
I think it is a quality-control issue. You can have as many animals as you want in a dairy as long as you are certified. That means you have to jump through every obnoxious, unreasonable (and expensive!) hoop the government can possibly think up, and if you cross them, they can shut you down. For cows, you can have no more than 3. I also cannot advertise and must sell from my home. I think someday I shall have exactly 9 milking does and exactly 3 milking cows.
quote:One of their Nubians gives 2 gallons, that's right, I said it, 2 gallons of milk a day.
That is phenomenal! Nubians are not known for their volume.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
actually steven has successfully disconvinced me on Price to a certain extent, while hatrack has always been a boon to improving my knowledge.
I heard about Weston Price through a relatively circuitous route
Home Theatre Forum
to
John Stone Fitness
to
Jeremy Likness
to
Mercola (utter quack) & Weston Price Foundation
ultimately, what's different from four years ago? I cut way back on sugar, transfat and flour consumption, don't skimp on butter, eat smaller portions of more nutrient dense foods, try to exercise more, and make my own saurkraut, pickles and kefir.
but I've never been a member of WAPF and probably never will and I certainly think steven's done a bad job presenting the historical context of Price's scientific background. I also think it's foolish to take Price's 1930s era conclusions as holy writ, I think he was pursuing an interesting avenue of research that should be seriously looked at and perhaps in some respects continued, but I think his work has been so wholesalely Guru-ized by the WAPF that it's almost impossible to seriously credit his work when he's viewed as a sort of L Ron Hubbard figure.
The anecdotal evidence of health benefits I've come across from pursuing a diet low in processed food and high in nutrient dense foods often using traditional preparations is quite compelling though. But I don't think that is do to Price, I think it's simply good nutrition.
Posts: 128 | Registered: Aug 2006
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This is the real Chris Masterjohn and I did not write the previous post in this thread. I do not have time to participate in this forum but just wanted to make that clear.
Thanks, Chris
Posts: 2 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
btw, a little 'real' background on Price should be noted
Price was a dental surgeon and later became a prominent research scientist. His son died from infections/complications of a root canal that Price had personally performed in the mid 1890s. Later he was working with primitive radiography the early 1900s before Radium had even been named. in 1916 he became the Director of Research for the National Dental Association (now the ADA). One of the major studies instituted under Price involved, you guessed it, root canals infection. It took place over 25 years, resulted in as many scientific articles and a thousand page report (hohum).
Following this, I believe Price returned to private practice, but noticed a marked increase in cavity incidence, especially among children, than he remembered from the 1890s. He felt it was dramatic enough change to merit scientific study and he promptly began to look for a suitable control group that had not experienced such an increase. He was unable to find in the United States any group that could withstand the scientific rigour required for a proper control group. So, in the early to mid 1930s he began to look abroad for any community that could provide a clear control group. He discovered that a remote region of the Swiss Loetshental Vally contained several communities that fit his needs. A long term and stable Very low incidence of cavities that was very consistent throughout the community. What's more he discovered that in urban areas of Switzerland, such as Bern, that the increase in cavity incidence followed the same pattern over the prior thirty years that he had seen in America, England and most of the rest of the 'first world' of the 1930s. Price was delighted, he not only had finally found a control group, but he also had found genetically similar experimental group that was experiencing the exact problem he was hoping to study.
What's more is that Price discovered a crossover effect. When members of the control community emigrated to the experimental community they quickly (over several years) developed cavities on a pace with the rest of the experimental community (though not as many cavities, but statistically similar). But if they returned to their isolated control group community, their rate of cavities would shift down to align with the low rate of the control group (not their cavities 'went away' just the rate of new cavities)
Price gathered multiple soil, water, plant, grain, milk, manure and livestock samples from both control and experimental groups, as well as taking saliva swabs/samples from as many members of each community as he could (as well as independently cataloguing their cavities. he had all these samples returned to America for laboratory chemical analysis (I suppose by this time, the state of the art German facilities had grown unavailable, Price would have naturally been fluent in German as he would have been unable to function as a medical researcher in that era without German). Price also had continual samples of the milk, plant life, soil and water shipped at regular intervals (several times a year) and then began a program to systematically gather the same data on American soil, milk, water and plant life from hundreds of sites scattered across the USA. He also catalogued many of his subjects with photography, xrays and an basic anthropological study of their culture, foods, and traditions (later he also dabbled in archeology).
Price's initial hypothesis was that the more vegetarian lifestyle was a significant factor (if diet was a factor at all, he didn't yet have the data), since, in the control group, Meat was usually only eaten on Sundays, and the rest of the week relied on root vegetables, rye bread, eggs, butter and milk. Subsistence fare when you think about just how limited a diet of less than a dozen options is (btw, this and similar diets, are what the Weston Price Foundation idolizes and foolishly insists we should adopt, something Price never advocated or even hinted at). The experimental group had access to (and enthusiastically used) all the food benefits and diversity of modernity.
Price was surprised at the results of his chemical tests, the data that most strongly correlated with the differences between control and experimental groups was that of the fat soluble vitamins, A, D, and E. The consumption of these elements in the experimental group had been declining as a percentage of diet while the rate of cavities had been increasing. While among the control group, the consumption of fat soluble vitamins had remained steady stable. What was odd, was the amount of fat soluble vitamins in the butterfat and milk, the exceptionally rich mountain soil, grew grass that when eaten by cattle led to milk with a butterfat unusually rich in fat soluble vitamins.
Vitamins 'couldn't possibly' explain cavities, there was obviously a confounding factor at work. So Price set out to find another Community that could provide a control and experimental groups of the scientific quality that Switzerland had yielded, but this time without access to cattle/dairy.
he found communities that met this criteria in the Outer Hebrides Islands off the coast of Scotland. Their control group diet was even more limited, oat mush and cod, the islands soil couldn't support any forms of agriculture that would allow domesticated animals to survive. The experimental group with the very typical and steady increase of cavity incidence again had access to the modern culture and diverse foodstuffs. Price took the same rigorous samples and procedures, and also took samples of the cod and cod products consumed in such large quantities.
Stymied again, the cod products proved to be just as unusually rich a source of fat soluble vitamins as the butterfat of the Mountain Swiss had been.
In many ways Price then got sidetracked by what became a much more intriguing line of research, anthropology. From then on he focused on what I'd call border groups. Groups of communities with the same heritage, but some communities have fully embraced modernization, while some communities have thoroughly rejected it. Price continued his researches on cavities and eventually concluded that foods rich in fat soluble vitamins had very little effect on cavity prevention, but that a diet that strongly limited the most modernized foods, sugar, sweets and wheat flour and was supplemented with foods rich in fat soluble vitamins had some benefit in cavity prevention.
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