Just a quick question, at smooth steady freeway speeds, are those Prius advantages due to the fact that it is a hybrid, or do to the advanced engine management? Which to me seems to be something separate from the hybrid aspect.
The picture I'm getting is that engine management is the key under these circumstances, and not the electric assist aspect.
Of course, I'm operating under the assumption that the 'hybrid' aspect is gasoline engine with electric motor assist. The Engine management is a separate issue.
No denying that the Prius and other Hybrids get great gas mileage under all circumstances, and if that serves a person then great.
Thanks again for all the detailed expert information you've added to the discussion.
posted
Well, it's a bit of both. If the HV battery is completely depleted, then yes, the engine runs alone, but that's pretty rare for the HV battery to be drained completely. Keep in mind that there are two motor/generators, one can harness the energy of the car via electrical induction while the other one assists in propelling it.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote: But I won't get too far into that, it's an exhausting read if you haven't heard of it before, though I would be glad to discuss if anybody is interested.
Fire away - at your leisure of course. I'm enjoying all this discussion; very informative.
By the way, thank you all for your suggestions. I really appreciate it. We're currently waiting on a second opinion, but it looks like the transmission will require quite a bit of repair.
We're actually probably going to just get it fixed. There are a few reasons, but probably the most deciding factor is that the car holds some sentimental value for my mom and she'd like us to hold on to it if possible. It was originally my great aunt's car, and she passed away just a couple of years ago.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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When emotional attachment is involved, a car's value can sometimes be priceless. Good luck to you.
As for the Diesels, I'm waiting until ultra-low sulfur fuel is readily available everywhere, or bio-diesel, which doesn't have a lot of sulfur either. The lower the sulfur, the less NOx emmisions (the main smog culprit) and the better the engine runs.
Here's how the new ones work.
They use piezoelectric-based fuel injectors to more accurately ration the fuel consumption. They accomplish this because they can handle higher fuel pressures than conventional electromagnetic fuel injectors found in gasoline engines. Piezoelectric devices utilize certain ceramic materials that deform upon the application of an electrical current and to return to their original state when the current is removed. Each injector is composed of a stack of piezoelectric ceramic elements. When an electric current is applied to the stack, the elements expand almost instantaneously. The expansion allows the fuel coming from the common-rail into the cylinder. This technique allows larger volumes of fuel to be injected in a shorter time than would be possible with solenoid injectors. In addition, it results in greater fuel atomization that in turn ensures a more efficient combustion. This greatly increases overall engine efficiency without a loss of power. It's far more effective than the EGR systems found in gasoline engines use to accomplish the same effect, which is to lean out the fuel mix in the cylinder when combustion temperatures are too high.
There is another technology out there that further reduces emissions. It starts with a tank filled with a urea based chemical called AdBlue that usually only needs to be refilled at vehicle servicing. The chemical is dispersed by a special metering unit into the hot exhaust gas, which then heats it, converting it to the ammonia required for the chemical reaction that takes place in the catalytic converter. The resulting catalytic reaction converts the ammonia and nitrous oxides, or NOx, into the end products, nitrogen and water, both harmless elements already abundant in the atmosphere.
posted
Just one additional note, though not a real reliable one.
In the latest 'Car and Driver' a letter to the editor indicates that the new Honda FIT, which is really a nice looking little car though not a hybrid. Was going for $6,000 above Sticker Price. The further implication was that this could drive the final price of deluxe models up to $26,000. (Base price of about $14,000.) Those numbers don't quite add up, but my point regarding the Prius is the there very likely is a dealer premium added to this high demand/low supply car.
I think I estimated about a $2,000 above sticker premium, but as this letter to the editor indicates, it can be substantially higher.
It seems that in the next model year, they are dropping the Honda Accord Hybrid which seem like a very nice car. But fortunately Toyota is introducing the Camry Hybrid which should also be a very very nice car. Then there is the old standby mentioned by others, the Honda Civic.
Again, I'm not against Hybrids, in fact I am very much in favor of them. I think they are a far far far better idea than the electric car. But I'm also not against the electric car, they are just impractical on so many levels, but on a very few other levels, they do what they do very nicely.
I think the only psychological advantage to the Prius is that it looks goofy enough that people instantly know that it is a hybrid, so there is a certain cachet to driving one. But personally, I think the Accord, Civic, Camry, and many other hybrids based on existing cars are much more practical.
Just one problem with Hybrids which is at the center of the point I have been making all along.
The Honda Civic Sedan in the standard version cost between $15,000 and $18,700 depending on model. The Honda Civic Sedan Hybrid cost base price $22,600. That is a $3,900 to $7,600 price difference then couple that with the very very likely Dealer Premium, and it is simply not economically feasible.
I would be willing to pay an additional $2,000 to $3,000 to get hybrid technology in a car, maybe even an addition $4,000, but any more than that and there are just too many other places to apply that money that I think would have a better environmental impact.
You can save a small fortune in energy in your home if you make wise choices there. 68 in the winter, 75 in the summer, geothermal pre-heating/cooling gives an advantage in both summer and winter. Insulation will pay for itself in about 5 years. Double or triple glazed windows will also pay for themselves in energy savings. Energy star appliances as well as many of these other home efficiency technologies will actually get you a rebate for the energy company and perhaps even the government. Is that a wiser place to put your extra money? Of course, having an energy efficient house doesn't bring you as much cachet as drive a hybrid car.
And I am NEVER under any circumstances paying a Dealer Premium on any car ever. I would be willing to go with a no-haggle sticker price but that is it.
Though I confess, it is the people who are willing to pay for the early and expensive versions of any technology that allow that technology to advance to the point where ordinary consumers can afford it.
Finally, I want to thank Nick again for all the detailed information about Hybrid cars. That definitely helped me as a consumer.
posted
Well, it's not so simple as that in terms of pricing, and not every dealer charges more for cars in demand, in fact I've not heard of it, but I've always been in service, not sales.
I work at an Acura dealer now, and I still haven't heard of them making an Acura hybrid... even though they have Honda engines... oh well.
The Prius isn't less practical than an Accord or Civic hybrid, they're just ugly.
Oh, and I don't mind talking about cars at all. If you ever have a question, start a thread, email me, whatever. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I was joking. :)I might like how they look outside very much, but I love their interior. Bluetooth, navigation, leather seats, smart-key, etc. This is the car I want. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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A few reasons. I can't fathom spending that much money on a car, because I can't buy the TL without the "S" package 3.5 V6 instead of 3.2. They also rattle like crazy. TLs are notorious for having all kinds of ticks and rattles, though I don't think the first generation is that way at all.
I wanted a car that was a little smaller and got little better mileage while still performing pretty well. The TSX is $5,000 less. It would be my first luxury car. I'm still torn on getting a Civic Si 4 door sedan. Same performance, size and mileage, less leather.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Makes sense. The only odd noises I've noticed are some grinding on hot days (rear pads need replacin'), mild noise from the front right rotor (warped, who thought those damn skinny things were appropriate for a car this size?), and road noise from the wheel wells (only really noticeable because the engine compartment is so well insulated--gotta pad the wells). Mine's auto, and the tranny's in surprisingly excellent shape given the age of the car.
(By 1G, I meant first gen, the 96-98 body style. Mine's a 98 3.2.)
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I've never bought a new car, and I can finally afford it. I'm torn, because I want to save for a house, but I want a new car... I'll probably get the Civic, even though I want the TSX. I'll just get the fully loaded Civic, that will save at least $5,000.00
*goes to "build and price" section for the Nth time today*
And if only I was close by, I would help you out with your car problems... Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Hehehe, I hear ya. I don't think I'd have bought the TL if the price wasn't ludicrously good, even accounting for the minor problems. Thankfully, I'm so far from owning property I don't care.
And I'm using the rotor as an excuse to learn how to replace my own braking components. WOO SCARY! Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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If you need me to tell you the easiest way to do it, let me know. There are some tools you'll need that you might not have. Let me know how you plan on doing it so you don't get yourself in a situation where you have to pay for your car to be repaired and towed. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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My dad once told me about a guy who had brought in his car to the dealership for some brake work. He had taken the pads off, realized that he didn't have the right tools to finish the job, and drove it to the dealership instead to have them do it. Totally destroyed all his brake parts. I think it ended up costing something like $800.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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*shakes head* I've seen things like that before. I once had a customer ask why they were losing brake fluid, and when I inspected their brakes, they had worn though the front brake pads, the pad backing plate, and the caliper piston cup all the way to the seal. They just figured their car stopped all the time, so why worry? Then again, it was Santa Cruz... Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I'm a little surprised that someone could abuse their brakes so badly and still be smart enough to notice that they were losing brake fluid. You'd think they'd first notice the squealing noise . . . and then the grinding noise.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Nick: If you need me to tell you the easiest way to do it, let me know. There are some tools you'll need that you might not have. Let me know how you plan on doing it so you don't get yourself in a situation where you have to pay for your car to be repaired and towed.
I may take you up on that sometime in the not-too-distant future.
I'm replacing the calipers, rotors, lines and pads. I'm actually using '95 legend GS calipers & rotors instead of the skinny TL replacement gunk. The list of things I've either obtained, already had or am purchasing shortly:
quote: As for the Diesels, I'm waiting until ultra-low sulfur fuel is readily available everywhere, or bio-diesel, which doesn't have a lot of sulfur either. The lower the sulfur, the less NOx emmisions (the main smog culprit) and the better the engine run
Not to be picky but...
Sulfur has very little to do with NOx, and everything to do with SOx, specifically S02.
Biodiesel has essentially no sulfur at all.
NOx formation has a lot of variables, including oxygen concentration, fuel/oxygen ratio, nitrogen concentration, burn rate, combustion temperature, soak temperature, and at what point the hot gasses are quenched.
Generally, the "cleaner" the fuel burns, the more NOx you make, but you can reduce it by keeping the flue gas at an optimum temperature where NOx is at its lowest equilibrium. The longer you can keep it there before the gas is quenched, the less NOx will remain.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:I've seen things like that before. I once had a customer ask why they were losing brake fluid, and when I inspected their brakes, they had worn though the front brake pads, the pad backing plate, and the caliper piston cup all the way to the seal. They just figured their car stopped all the time, so why worry?
I had one of those once. A guy brings an old Pontiac into a Mazda dealership for a state safety inspection. Among other things, the rotors were so worn that one side was completely worn away, so that the vent ribs were visible from the side. I couldn't figure out how the car made it into the shop. I don't remember how many items I failed it for, but it was way more than just the brakes. I'm pretty sure that it was someone from the state checking to see if our safety inspections were up to standards.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
eros, impact driver. You'll need that for the rotor screws, they're in there so tight a regular philip's head screwdriver will strip the head. You could use an air hammer with a philip's attachment too, but that requires a compressor, and air hammers are expensive.
Glenn: Not to be picky but... More sulfur DOES create more NOx, according to Chevron, a very reputable oil company.
quote: Why is S15 (ULSD) required?
The EPA states these new regulations will significantly reduce nitrous oxide (NOx) and particulate matter emissions to the atmosphere. To attain these emission reductions the EPA has established a comprehensive program to regulate diesel fuel along with the production of diesel engines.
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I really don't appreciate you people hijacking my first thread. Honestly...so disrespectful...
Seriously, I'd just like to thank you guys again for your advice and let you all know that $1800 later the Thunderbird is chugging along decently enough. There is a bit of a pull every once in a while, though, mostly at higher speeds (50-60). Is that normal?
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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For the record, the sticker price on the Civic Hybrid I got (which was the going rate... The Civic hybrid is popular, but not so much as the Prius) was about 3k above the similarly optioned Civic. I get the hybrid and the tax deduction (as it was at the time), and the price out the door was probably only 500-1000 more.
posted
I don't mean to hijack, but when somebody says, "Hey, you're wrong and here's why!" I'm bound to get defensive when I know I'm not.
Oh, and Bok, that's cool about the price of the Civic hybrid, but Toyota doesn't have a non-hybrid Prius, so the example can't translate, unfortunately. It's also a reason why you can't compare a yaris or matrix to a Prius. Totally different vehicles.
[ June 16, 2007, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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eros, front or rear brakes? You might need a rotating caliper depressor if it's rear brakes. You can just use big channel-locks for the front calipers. Do you have a vacula or a bleeder buddy?
Why are you replacing the lines? Are they leaking? If they're not leaking, you don't really need to replace them. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Good to know, Nick - I've added things to my list of tool investigations.
I have neither a vacula nor a bleeder buddy, but I have another person available to brakestomp, so I was planning on doing it the old-fashioned way. No good?
I'm replacing the lines 'cause they look pretty old, and I'd rather do it now when I'm piecing everything else apart than worry about going through the hassle again, esp. since they're inexpensive.
Oh, and I was going to do both front & rear. Definitely rear, front pending closer inspection.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I looked at your link. Notice the language: The regulations will reduce NOx emissions. It makes it sound like sulfur produces NOx. I looked around for a mechanism where sulfur might be involved in NOx formation. I couldn't find one, but I did find that the regulations call for something called a NOx trap which is sensitive to sulfur poisoning. Sounds very much like the way lead poisons a catalytic converter.
That may be what they're talking about, or it may be that by using "NOx and particulate matter" in the same sentence, it sounds like sulfur produces NOx. Sulfur DOES produce particulates, but it doesn't produce NOx.
For a fairly good breakdown of the mechanisms behind production of various pollutants, look here: link
BTW, I spent a fair portion of my previous career working on staged and dilute oxygen combustion for NOx reduction.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: Our car ('95 Bonneville SE) has been doing something strange. We're driving, and all of a sudden it shuts off. So we have to coast to the side of the road. But when I put it in park and turn the key, it starts right up again.
For some reason I remember someone talking about the distributor cap. Does that sound like something that would happen with the distributor cap?
My Buick ( a '91 Riviera) would do something similar. The engine had just been recently worked on and the ground wire (that is attached to the body of the car) for the engine had not been properly attached.
If that is the problem, it would be kinda funny because someone told you to ground some port terminals to find the answer from the car's diagnostic codes. You're hearing a lot about grounds right now!
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I recently bought a 2007 Prius, letting my Buick (which had flaky paint, moldy interior, saggy lining, a cracked windshield, soft brakes, drilled locks, depleted refrigerant and no stereo) go by the wayside.
I live in Seattle and get 42 mpg in the city (it's a very hilly city), but I have to work at it and drive a certain way. I got 54 mpg with fairly little effort on the drive from Seattle to Port Townsend, which is mostly freeway driving. I got 63 mpg driving around the backroads of Mount Vernon, in Snohomish County.
I think the keys to good gas mileage are these: 1) Stop driving like everyone else, accelerating fast only to brake hard a block later for a stop light. Accelerating slowly in the Prius can use only the electric motor, not engaging the gas engine and thus increasing fuel economy. 2) Be aware of your gas mileage. The energy screen is on in my car all the time, except when I'm searching for tracks on a CD. If I'd had one of these in my Buick, perhaps I wouldn't have driven so recklessly, wasting a lot of fuel. 3)Try not to use air conditioning. Just lowering your windows when it's hot out can cause a reasonable drop in temp without using the air conditioning. A/C will significantly reduce your gas mileage, whatever your car. 4)In my Prius, I can "trick" the electric motor into providing more power by accelerating up to speed with the gas engine, then letting my foot off the accelerator slightly. The electric motor gets power from the wheels turning (an alternator/generator I'm guessing?) though it has to be above a certain speed to provide enough power. That means potentially your electric motor can provide a lot of the power to maintain your car's velocity. It's the changing of velocity that causes so much loss of fuel economy (although the regenerative braking helps ameliorate that by charging the electric batteries when the brake is applied).
Seattle has a lot of Priuses, which makes me sad because I want to be an individual, but happy because of lower emissions! The Prius also has far better headroom than the Civic hybrid had for me(I'm 6'6"), although the Civic looked way cooler inside and out. The seats in a Prius suck, though, and you can't exchange them for more comfortable ones because they're tied into the safety features.
------
Hey Nick, does Toyota provide an option for a Prius plug-in conversion without voiding the warranty?
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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So I gained full access to my trust fund last month, and Ericka and I are now ready get that new Prius we've been eyeing for the past year. Unfortunately, getting the car we want is looking to be a much more difficult process than we expected. We're wanting specific options, and I expect that to make things a little more difficult, but dealers over the phone and through email are also telling me that due to high demand, the car is pretty much selling at MSRP.
Now, if this is in fact the case it's not the end of the world, but because they only seem to divulge this information after I’ve made it clear that I’m a serious buyer, I’m wondering just how accurate this really is. One dealer, for example, originally quoted me a final cost of $24,000-$25,000 (assuming a greater than 20% down payment and that he could actually get one), but then when he called me back he said $29,000 was a more accurate figure. That’s quite a jump. So I told him I’d have to keep looking, and he quickly offered to speak to his supervisor on Friday to see if he could offer me a better deal.
I’m not really sure how to go from here. I’m willing to put down as much as $20,000 if it will help, but I’m not really sure how best to approach the dealer with this. Does the dealer really gain anything more for a down payment over 20%? Isn’t financing one of their main sources of profit anyway?
So basically I’m asking for car buying advice again. I’ve read a ton of car buying articles, and I’ve talked to family and friends. I know I need to keep looking and to be patient. I need to make visits to the actual dealerships. I need to look into third party financing. I know to be on guard if I do finance through the dealer. I have a pretty decent credit score (730ish) and an active credit history. I’d prefer a 40 month purchase, but if the monthly payments are going to be over $400, then I’m thinking 60 months would be better. So what kind of deal should I expect or at least attempt to get? How aggressive should I be? Any tips on what to say and do to get the best deal?
As always, any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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1. Don't show your cards before you have to. Some people have gotten good results by not mentioning how much cash they have until the price is negotiated (sometimes they'll give on price what they expect to get from financing kickback). This can be tricky because the salesman will ask how you plan to pay.
2. Try calling dealers, asking for rock bottom price, and then asking other dealers if they can beat that price. Often they will compete to get the sale - maybe not with a Prius since they don't tend to sit on lots from what I understand. Careful not to burn your bridges here - they might decide they don't want to deal with you if you are trying to play hardball and they have other buyers lining up for an in demand vehicle.
3. If you have a car you're getting rid of, sell it yourself - don't trade it in.
4. Don't rule out financing through the dealer and then refinancing _part_ of the loan and paying off part of it with cash, since it sounds like you have enough cash to do this. Find out beforehand whether there are fees to refinance your car loan with a preferred lender or penalties for paying off the original loan early.
5. If you're negotiating price in person, don't put up with too much of their game. If the guy keeps leaving you for extended periods to go talk to the sales manager, ask to speak with the sales manager or make it clear that you have very limited time and won't be able to sit around for long. You'll get tired and worse at negotiating if you are there for too long.
6. Look at Carmax and eBay for fixed-price deals or auctions with no negotiating.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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After spending pretty much all day on the phone, I've come to the conclusion that I'm just not going to get much of a deal if any. I've done some back and forth bargaining, but like you said, I was careful not to burn my bridges. Every Prius on their lot is going to sell whether I buy one or not. So basically my goal now is just to not get completely screwed. I'm now working with two dealerships to see which one can get hold of a car that best matches what we're looking for.
I'm still not sure how much of a down payment to make, but I'm thinking $15,000 sounds pretty good. The two dealerships I'm negotiating with right now haven't gotten anything specific from me yet, so I'll keep them in the dark for now.
We're not selling the Thunderchicken. My aunt got in a wreck that totaled her car a couple of weeks ago (she's fine, just a bruised rib), so we're giving it to her.
As for financing, it is looking like the dealer will probably have the best rates, but that's still up in the air. I'm not too worried about this right now. My primary goal at the moment is finding an actual car to buy.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
If you're a Costco Member (and if not, you can get a membership for about $50 a year, I believe), they have a car buying program that's quite good. You can tell them the car you want, all the features, and how far you're willing to go to get it, and they set up the whole deal for you.
The dealer calls when they have the car, and Costco negotiates it at $200-300 over invoice. If you're not into haggling, it's the way to go, and it's great for convenience.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Interesting. I didn't know Costco did that. I'm already waist deep in the haggling at this point, though, so I think I'll pass this time. We also don't really have the time to be going too far out of the way, and given how difficult it's been to find the car so far, we'd probably be waiting on Costco for months.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I used to work for a Ford dealership. I can't guarantee that this is how it works for Toyota and Costco (though I would say it does) no price you haggle down to is going to be better than the one your Costco price gives you. There isn't any haggling-- I worked the phones, and I had a set list right in front of me of what vehicles had what amount of over or under invoice for their MSRP. We didn't tell them what that was and tried instead to get them to come down to the dealer.
I'm willing to bet that the Prius has a set over invoice price that's such a far better deal than the MSRP that your haggling won't beat it. And most dealers, if they're smart, won't get you a car unless you've committed thoroughly. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who wanted an exact vehicle with certain specifications without even coming down first-- building an exact one, even dealer trading costs the dealership a lot of money, and without commitment from the buyer it's often a loss of money.
Posts: 368 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Good luck to you.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I'll probably get the Civic, even though I want the TSX. I'll just get the fully loaded Civic, that will save at least $5,000.00![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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