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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » No high-fiving allowed in Virginia public school (Page 3)

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Author Topic: No high-fiving allowed in Virginia public school
Elizabeth
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"Punish the one being teased for fighting. Punish the teaser for teasing. That wasn't so hard. There are two steps to assigning punishment: determining what happened ("fact finding"). Even in the face of doubt, the fact finder must arrive at a conclusion as to what happened. Once that conclusion has been arrived at, punishment is assigned."

We are lucky to have administrators who do this well. Sure, they make lots of mistakes, but it is awfully hard to figure out what went on. They do a great job of isolating the kids, getting the stories separately, matching them with witness stories, and, basically, knowing the kids pretty well in the first place.

One of the things that hurts kids in this instance is their code of kid ethics. There is a huge stigma on tattling, and for some reason, certain kids just take what happens to them without asking for help.

It is another thing we need to teach kids explicitly. When do they ask for help? If they are trying to deal with a situation on their own, they need help finsing the right things to say, and knowing when talking is not the thing to do, but getting an adult's help is.

I love teaching middle school, but I wouldn;t go back in time for any amount of money, fame, or fortune.

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SoaPiNuReYe
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When fights happen, teachers will spend about 5 minutes finding out what happened and about 30 minutes assigning punishments and detention. If it gets too complex, then they will just punish everybody, believe me.
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JLM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
I generally favor the idea of vouchers, but I haven't seen any reason to think that private schools are less inclined to make rules like this one.

The point of a voucher based private school system is that the parents can decide what type of school they want to send their kids to. If you are in the "no high fiving" camp, then send your kids to "Isolation Acadamy", whereas if you believe in a free for all frolicking policy then send your kid to the "Kumbaya School for Tactile Learners". The one size fits all policy of the public schools does a grave diservice to children and their parents.
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Elizabeth
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"The one size fits all policy of the public schools does a grave diservice to children and their parents."

The opinion that all public schools approach education this way does a grave disservice to teachers, administrators, and schools.

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Liz B
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What Elizabeth said.

I'm all for a voucher-based private school system that has to educate everyone regardless of ability, disability, or desire to learn.

quote:
When fights happen, teachers will spend about 5 minutes finding out what happened and about 30 minutes assigning punishments and detention. If it gets too complex, then they will just punish everybody, believe me.
I'm sorry that happens in your school! My experience has been different...administrators in our building spend HOURS trying to track down what actually happened, getting witnesses, etc.
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Elizabeth
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My favorite moment(OK, one of them) was this year. A student had gone in to the assistant principal. He had been hit. His attacker was denying the fact, even though a whole row of the cafeteria had seen it.

Assistant speaks to Attacker.
Denial.
Assistant speaks to victim.
True story told(matches winesses)
Attacker reenters room. Assistant asks attacker if she is ready to tell the whole story.
Victim leaps up from his chair, closes the office door, looks straight at the assistant principal and says:

"Sometimes, it's easier for people to tell the truth with the door closed."

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Dagonee
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quote:
We are lucky to have administrators who do this well. Sure, they make lots of mistakes, but it is awfully hard to figure out what went on. They do a great job of isolating the kids, getting the stories separately, matching them with witness stories, and, basically, knowing the kids pretty well in the first place.
That's great, Liz! I wish more schools would (and could - I know resources are tight) do this.

quote:
One of the things that hurts kids in this instance is their code of kid ethics. There is a huge stigma on tattling, and for some reason, certain kids just take what happens to them without asking for help.

It is another thing we need to teach kids explicitly. When do they ask for help? If they are trying to deal with a situation on their own, they need help finsing the right things to say, and knowing when talking is not the thing to do, but getting an adult's help is.

I think they do need to know this. Teaching kids to ask for help requires that help be available. Unfortunately, the opposite lesson is too often taught - asking for help leads to highly negative consequences, so kids are discouraged from doing it.

Every single beginning of school P.E. lecture included the "if someone is hitting you, ask for help and I'll stop it." The result when practiced: "I didn't see it, so I can't do anything about it" plus later abuse from the one told on. OK, I can see not punishing based on two different stories with no support. But what didn't happen was increased vigilance once the matter has been brought to the teacher's attention.

One P.E. teacher's answer to an accusation of ongoing abuse was to make me wrestle the kid who had hit me. Didn't help at all, of course.

Bullying - not teasing but physical assault - was an everyday occurrence. The teachers knew this. They didn't alter their procedures at all in response, which meant that I had to accept physical abuse every single school day for four years in elementary school, 3 in middle school, and 1 in high school (although high school was only 3 days a week).

I don't know what the answer is, but the one I got was insufficient.

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Elizabeth
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I learned an amazing trick from a first grade teacher, which works, when used sparingly and with the right kid/situation.

When you get two different stories, you tell the kids, OK, sounds like you two need to get your story straight first before you talk to me. They end up talking, arguing, and then either dropping it or coming back. Again, this is not for every situation, and needs to be in a safe place to begin with. (So, no "Go back into that bathroom where you say he slammed your head against the sink and get your story straight.")

Another thing I always do(and mind you, I have fifth graders, and there is a huge difference between a fifth grader and a seventh grader, even than a sixth grader). There is a complaint. I call the offender over and ask the victim to tell the story again. "Look at him, not me. Tell him, not me." It is tense and difficult for both kids, but it is hard for the offender to deny the truth when it is staring him, literally, in the face. I ask the offender to agree to knock it off, and that if I hear another report, it will go to the office.

Dag, I really don't think our school is alone in doing things Ok (for the msot part). I think the attention is placed on schools that are really messed up.

I wonder how many of those schools which get media attention are also accepting our old, outdated textbooks? Need paint so pieces of plaster don't fall on kids' heads? Have a class size of thirty plus? Have had a succession of teachers in one year for one class? Have many classes taught by substitutes?

Someone once said, or maybe it was a cartoon, "If we leave all of the children behind, then, technically, no child is left behind."

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Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth:
"The one size fits all policy of the public schools does a grave diservice to children and their parents."

The opinion that all public schools approach education this way does a grave disservice to teachers, administrators, and schools.

Not all public schools, but definitely the ones I went to were of the "one size fits all" approach.

[ June 23, 2007, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Nick ]

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AvidReader
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I suppose mine was a three size fits all approach, but I'm really curious how any public school with time limits and required curriculum could have a custom approach to each student. Let's face it, even going over the material tailored to several different learning styles is a disservice to me since I got it the first time and now I have to wait on you to cover it twice more.

My honors classes weren't the same as the regular or ESE classes, but the curriculum I got was exactly the same as what everyone else taking honors classes got. And we still had the three minute break between classes, assigned times to eat, dress code, and PDA rules to deal with. (For some reason, my bf putting his arm around my waist was a big deal to some of the teachers. I'm still not sure why.)

My biggest problem with my middle and high schools was that they weren't terribly honest about their requirements. My sister took Algebra I in middle school because we were told it counted for high school credit. We needed three math credits to graduate, so she needed two more. She struggled through Geometry and almost didn't pass it, but it was ok because she was done. Then when it was time to pick classes next year, they surprised her by telling her she did need another math because the Algebra from middle school only counted after she'd had three maths in high school, and they tried to force her to take College Algebra. Fortunately, my parents stepped up and fought with them about it, eventually getting her into Liberal Arts Math and securing her graduation.

Had they been completely honest with us in the first place, she'd have taken the regular middle school math and skipped all the drama later. But my schools were always shady like that. My first lessons in conflict of interest came from my guidance councilor. If you let the guy who makes the class schedule advise folks on what to take, you end up with a lot of kids in classes they don't want just so the class makes.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Dag, I really don't think our school is alone in doing things Ok (for the msot part). I think the attention is placed on schools that are really messed up.
I agree that there are other schools out there. My school wasn't even considered "messed up" - by any standard the media notices, it was a very successful school.

quote:
Not all public schools, but definitely the ones I went to were of the "one size fits all" approach.
None of mine were. Granted, there were basically 4 sizes (special needs, remedial, average, honors/AP), but that's far, far better than you suggest.

In addition, if we want to have more "sizes," we need to dedicate far more resources. How many students could a teacher actually provide truly individualized educational plans for at a time? I can't see it being more than 3 or 4 on average.

We spend about $8,000 per student per year on primary/secondary education) as of 2002-2003. That's not going to support 4 students per teacher.

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Belle
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I'm in a class right now on exceptional education, and let me tell you, I think that system is in serious trouble.

You talk about IEP's Dag, and how many a teacher can support - well, they are being asked to support a ton of them. One of my fellow classmates in this class is already teaching (it's a mixed grad/undergrad class and he's getting his master's). he's a high school history teacher. During the spring, in a class of 32, he had 18 kids with IEP's. That math's not hard to do. Over half of his students had individual education plans.

He told me after class that it was impossible to do them all. Not just because of time, but it was physically impossible. He had, for example, eight students whose IEP's required they be seated on the first row. No matter how he arranged his desks, there was no possible way to have more than six desks on a front row and leave room for kids to walk to their seats. Yet, if he violates a kid's IEP, he's in serious trouble.

The Special Ed teachers we have are vastly overworked and overwhelmed and we don't have enough of them. The move toward inclusion puts more and more kids with special needs in classrooms and puts a huge burden on the classroom teacher who is expected to meet the individual needs of these students while at the same time teaching his/her curriculum to all the other students.

Whatever we're doing right now is not working well, but I'm not sure what the answer is.

(apologies if this post went way off topic, it's just on my mind right now due to the class I'm taking)

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Rakeesh
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you contending that it is moral to use the coercive power of the state to punish someone for physically stopping an aggressor from physically damaging them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes yes, it is.

Oh, what a bunch of nonsense.
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Elizabeth
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Belle, another little quote we fifth grade teachers have, along with "You can;t make this stuff up" is:

"There's only one front row.

The funny thing is that the front row thing is rather ridiculous, and a rather standard thing to put on Ed plans or 504s of kids with attention challenges.

The front row is often the worst place for kids with an attention deficit. Why? They turn around to see what is going on behind them.

The "U" shape is my favorite, but it's main drawback is the audience members across the room.

Groups if four is my most hated configuration. I just leave the desks in a U, and move chairs when I want them to work in groups.

But yes, "inclusion" has come to mean "dumping ground," and I don;t care what anyone says otherwise. Unless you have two teachers who are working as a tem, planning, teaching, and assessing all students together, it is not inclusion. (my opinion, folks.)

It can be done, but not with 32 kids. In fact, I don;t think any effective teaching can be done with 32 kids in a room. There are teachers who can do this, sure, but what if they had half the amount of students? Imagine how effective they would be, then.

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AvidReader
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quote:
Unless you have two teachers who are working as a tem, planning, teaching, and assessing all students together, it is not inclusion.
That's what my mom does; she's the second teacher for the inclusion kids. Her job is still next to impossible. If she can get the overheads from the other teacher in time, she makes copies to pass out so the kids don't have to take notes. But most of the time, her kids are struggling with remedial reading and math and can't keep up with whatever the teacher is doing anyway.

The worst part is that she says her students make real progress when they show up regularly and don't sleep through class. She hasn't figured out how to motivate them to want to do better.

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Nathan2006
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This thread is great. Now all homeschoolers can brag. "This is the socialization that are kids aren't getting? Pff!"
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