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I think Jordan could have done the entire series in 3 books if he had left out the endless and unnecessary details. A few pertinant details are OK (I have an imagination after all ) but does each characters nervous tics and every mundane detail need to be repeated over and over and over and over and over and over again?
Somebody (who probably can't be trusted) told me once that Jordan intended to keep writing the WOT until he died. I gave up at that point (book #9 or 10, not sure which)
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I found Wizard's First Rule to be the most painful of all Goodkind's books. I stopped after the sixth or seventh, I think, and they were getting pretty bad.
But Wizard's First Rule is just rife with virtually every fantasy cliche out there! It's amazing!
1) There was one a powerful wizard who vanished without a trace. The hero has been raised by a strange, wise old hermit. I wonder where this goes...
2) The hero is a simple woodsman who's never seen magic. 'Nuff said.
3) The hero is given a powerful sword and never trained in its use. He kills many things with ease.
4) There is a tribe of people who can provide a great help to the world, but they don't like helping outsiders. Of course, there is a way, a very difficult way, outsiders can become a member of their tribe. I wonder what the hero does?
5) And finally, my favorite. The arch-villain turns out to have a special connection to the hero. A familial connection. I know, I know, I'm being totally obscure. The arch-villain turns out to be related to the hero a very specific way. One that's totally new and refreshing, and never been done before...
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Oh, and I have avoided Wheel of Time on the advisement of many friends and good people like you folks. Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Joe, you've got to learn how to stop reading a series.
Just because you started a series, the author doesn't own your soul!
One of the insidious things about series is that they don't finish the story in one book. Even if I don't like a story all that much, I tend to want to read the conclusion. With single volume, as long as you can make me read the first 50 pages or so I tend to read to the end. With a series, this is a much crueler tendency.
I think this is why I like series that are finished much more than series that aren't.
Wizard's First Rule (Goodkind) may have been full of cliches but it was entertaining. At some future point, I may even have to challenge Dan's definition of cliche...I'll have to give that some more thought...but if those things are cliche then I wonder what fantasy series isn't cliche? They area ll derivatives of Tokien, after all.
The point is, I found the first book entertaining. I did enjoy the first rule (the subsequent rules have gotten weaker and weaker), and so I picked up a few more, searching for the end in vain.
As to Wheel of Time, the trouble with that series is a different one -- it's not finished yet. The only thing I wish about that series is that I would have discovered it after all the books were written so I could read it straight through uninterrupted. I tend to look for series that are finished. I think I even thought WOT would be finished soon because there were about 8 of them when I picked it up (oh, how naive!).
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: When reading Tolkien, I get the feeling that I'm just seeing a tiny bit of a huge and complex world.
With Jordan, I don't get the feeling that there's that much out there that we don't see.
True.
I'm going to get flayed alive for saying this, but here's my opinion on Tokien. He did something truly creative. He did something not only original, but also good -- something so good that subsequent generations of writers have tried to duplicate and improve. BUT...he did it first. I don't think he did it best.
IMHO, for epic fantasy, Jordan has no current equal...quirks and all. I even like the description. Yeah, it can get tiresome at times but it's a part of the whole and I'm not sure I could have the parts I love without some tiresome description.
I love the character quirks and the fact that they don't go away. Tugging braves, crossing arms....these are things that people do over and over again. Like the way a person walks. I may know a friend by their walk or the way they stand. Likewise, I know these characters as if they are real people.
This isn't a series you want to read if you're interested in nonstop action. It's slow and deliberate. It's much more about people than about things. Jordan only lost me on book 10 when he literally repeated most of what happened in book 9...at least according to my husband. (I never read it.) And he never lost me completely even then...I just decided it would be a good time to stop until he was done and read them all back to back in one go.
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quote:I love the character quirks and the fact that they don't go away. Tugging braves, crossing arms....
Except that, like in the poorer sort of movie, each main character only has two identifying quirks that get dragged out over and over again.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I agree with Christine about everything except Wizard's First Rule. There I agree entirely with Dan.
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quote:I love the character quirks and the fact that they don't go away. Tugging braves, crossing arms....
Except that, like in the poorer sort of movie, each main character only has two identifying quirks that get dragged out over and over again.
I don't see the comparison. In the poorer sort of movie you're talking about, a character is ONLY defined by one or two quirks that keep coming out again and again. In WOT, the characters have personalities, motivations, desires, drives, and yes - quirks. It's the whole picture that works for me, and quirks are a part of that. I mean, I have quirks. I happen to cross my arms under my breasts. (It's a nervous habit.) Just because I keep doing it again and again, it doesn't make me a B-movie character. (At least, I don't *think* it does.)
Of course, I've come to accept that for something to be loved, it must be hated in equal measure. My greatest ambition in life, therefore, is to get one of my novels on a banned books list. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I think most of the criticisms of Robert Jordan and the WOT are valid.
-He's gets bogged down in meaningless details, like descriptions of baths or clothing (though occasionally, they will give clues- just not enough to make it worth the effort to decipher.)
-The number of characters and subplots has spiraled out of control, to the point that you have to wonder if you've seen this person before, what they're doing, and how it all relates. A brief mention in book one, followed by a scene in book 6 can be tough to catch (though sometimes cool). But the thing is, I want to see the main characters move to resolution.
-Caricature qualities, especially male/female relationships. Remember how awesome Perrin was by book 4 (the Battle for the Two Rivers). Now he is a panty-waist. Seriously, 3 books with him getting his wife back. Why? What great plot movement did we see here? What characterization? Was he trying to show Perrin's descent into darkness and obsession? Cause it wasn't that dark and his obsession seemed pathetic at best. There was no heart-breaking scenes of Perrin becoming the very thing he has hated. He was whipped, that's all. And all the Galina-Therava stuff? Bleh. In fact, Mat (and Tuon) remain the freshest and funniest part of the series.
I think Jordan's problems stem from a number of things.
The belief that whatever he writes will be ok and vigorously defended by his fans (wrong, as he has been criticized by the very same fans).
His attempt to convey every nuance and even major plot pots through indirection, innuendo and even (occasionally) hands gripping skirts (perhaps in an attempt to imitate Frank Herbert- though, to be honest, I got tired of trying to decipher raised eyebrows and long, obscure truisms or aporisms or essays in order to pull out the one sentence relevent to the plot in his stuff too. But I am rereading God Emperor, so obviously, it didn't bother me too bad).
His attempt to 'model' the real world in relation to plot in such detail that he gives valuable time (and interest) to show what one minor lord or some functionary is doing, simply because it may or may not impinge upon the main story. In fact, this begins to take over the story, without any hint of 'payoff' or how it will relate to main story in any way. Case in point, the Domani General Ituralde and his fighting the Seanchan. Sure, we get hints of how Graendal has manipulated the Domani. But we already knew that. And probably he will figure as important in the end. But you have make me care about his story in relation to the main plot based on information IN THE TEXT, not based on authorial meta-data, the knowledge that if he was brought up and is continually brought up, he must be important in the end. That is irritating. It's like figuring out the end of an movie or episode because its almost over or because there is only one suspect left. Cheap.
That said, I still love the series, despite its flaws. It's fun, still has its thrilling moments, and I do like the people (most of them) despite what I said. For me, the series peaked in book 6/7. I loved the denseness and plot movement. After book 7, it became positively glacial, though with a number moments in book 9 and 11 (including, hopefully, the end of the Elayne-Andor plot. Dear lord, how boring was that?) that greatly helped.
It's been 15 years and 11 books. I gotta see this through.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: IMHO, for epic fantasy, Jordan has no current equal...quirks and all.
Have you ever read George R.R. Martin? He blows Jordan out of the water. He even does some of the same stuff (obsessive world-building, pointing out clothing and character quirks), but he's immensely more talented and actually has three-dimensional characters with real problems.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: IMHO, for epic fantasy, Jordan has no current equal...quirks and all.
Have you ever read George R.R. Martin? He blows Jordan out of the water. He even does some of the same stuff (obsessive world-building, pointing out clothing and character quirks), but he's immensely more talented and actually has three-dimensional characters with real problems.
LOL...I just brought up how much I detested Martin in another thread. My husband and I disagree on that one -- one of the few disagreements we have with books. Yes, I've read Martin. In a way, I even appreciate some of the things he's done (gutsy killing off every likable character) but I stopped reading his series halfway through book 2 because I couldn't stand his characters. Yeah, they were real -- maybe a little too real, if you know what i mean. Didn't like 'em and didn't want to spend thousands of pages with them.
Another one of those love-hate things, I think.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jordan's books took a steep turn for the worse when he got powerful enough to throw off the shackles of an editor. I imagine that one of the reasons that book 11 is so much better than the last several is that he had an editor foisted back on him.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Well, technically, he's always had and editor..........but, when that editor is your wife and has become more of a collaborator.....well, you can see how the work suffers. She's not reading as an outsider. She's reading as the author, her husband does (to say nothing of actually letting her loyalties to him outshine her editorial responsibilities). To the point that, when he reached that power (after book 7, when he decided to do the World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of time, and the Legend:New Spring short story- later expanded into a novel), the only good book he had, with his wife as sole editor was Winter's Heart (9). 2 of 3 sucky books is not a good thing. Honestly, Crossroads of Twilight (10) was the straw that broke the camel's back. Patho of Daggers (8) may have been an abberation, especially in view of 9. But 10 was such a slap in the face. 'Hey suckers, you waited 2 years. Here's 600 pages of nothing happening, except for this one minor thing.' It was blatent and disrespectful. Add to that that wait for each books puts the expectations rightfully higher. We waited 2 years for that?
I have relatively high hopes for 12, though.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Wizard's First Rule (Goodkind) may have been full of cliches but it was entertaining. At some future point, I may even have to challenge Dan's definition of cliche...I'll have to give that some more thought...but if those things are cliche then I wonder what fantasy series isn't cliche? They area all derivatives of Tokien, after all.
Bah! And double bah to the italicized part.
To call every fantasy series a derivative of Tolkien requires a bit of a stretch, I think. Certainly, Tolkien breathed life into the genre that other old-timers like Fritz Lieber never could. And certainly, he wrote the first modern fantasy epic (modern as in written in the modern age, not 'modern-fantasy' as in Magic Street). But the cliches in Wizard's First Rule go way beyond just the vague "This is a fantasy epic focusing on multiple characters and spanning multiple books".
Personally, I don't think that the Sword of Truth, Wheel of Time (this one I'm judging based on vague bits I've heard, as I haven't read it. So I freely admit I could be wrong), or Song of Ice and Fire are 'derivative' of Tolkien in any meaningful way.
As for the cliches in Wizard's First Rule... I mean... Wizard's First Rule isn't particularly derivative of Tolkien, as I said. But it does trot out every big fantasy stereotype out there! Not the ones started by Tolkien, but ones started by other, lesser authors. It's like he doesn't even think he can handle ripping off Tolkien, so he rips off lesser authors instead. Including Star Wars, which I'd call Fantasy in Space and not Sci-Fi.
Gah, I have to go to work now. I'm sure we can pick this up again later.
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Actually, I was pretty sick of the Matt and Tuon storyline. That one is so repetitive. It was the main downside of the last book for me. Egwene's is the storyline I'm most interested in. I'm enjoying Elayne's just fine, come to think of it.
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I like the Mat/Tuon storyline. Egwene's I am iffy on. I think the next book her storyline could be pretty awesome, but I skimmed a lot of hers. I also found Elayne's a bit dull. Perrin's was good in the last book, but I wouldn't have minded cutting him from the three before then. Also, didn't care about his wife's story.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I like Mat but loathe Tuon. Perrin is just boring by this point. Egwene is the most itneresting one (well, along with Rand, not that we've heard much from him). Elayne I could take or leave; Rand could settle that in three minutes with a good subtle plague in the besiegers' camp, so it's all a bit pointless. I mean, duh, just because the Lord Dragon can't be [i]seen[i] to interfere doesn't mean he can't do it. Hell, just Gate in some Trollocs to the tent of whatsherface, the chief rebel. Make sure to let Elayne's gaurds kill a couple at the same time so it looks like the Dark Lord is going for all the leadership of the kingdom. Done.
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I guess the problem I have with the term "cliche" is that it requires not only that something have been done before, bu that is be tired or worn out. And that is largely a matter of opinion. I'm not sure I'll ever get tired of the ordinary person going on to do something extraordinary thing. I'm even fond of the one where they were born special or with a destiny and are now off to fulfill it. You can think that's done to death if you want, but it's my favorite and it's still selling stories. Heck, that's the basis for Harry Potter. And it is probably the biggest reason why I enjoyed the first (and only the first) of the Good kind novels.
As for the wizard going into hiding thing....I'm not sure when that's been done to death. Certainly, it's been done, but I can't think of anything particularly over done about it. Then again, I haven't read a ton of otherworld fantasy, as I like to call it. I tend to enjoy modern fantasy and science fantasy more.
I wasn't thrilled with the tribal stuff, either. Never am.
And the familial relationship was also pretty bad, but keep in mind it came up at the very end and was mostly the basis for the rest of the series, which got increasingly painful.
IMHO, you can see many stories as a series of cliches if you oversimplify the plot elements and take them one at a time rather than as a whole. The epic journey itself is cliche by now -- at least, if you're tired of it...and I'm not. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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For me, up until the last book, Egwene had become a royal chore. She was so arrogant. Let me get this straight. Rand is the Creator's proxy, his chosen one, the rebirth of the Creator's tool throughout time. She is a woman elected by other women. And Rand should recognize her? Rand should obey her, the Amyrlin seat? What kind of thinking is that? Yet all the women in the series believe this, even Nynaeve (and don't get me started on her.)
But you know, that made me realize something. In the last few books (excluding 11) the characters had all become cliches. This is what Rand does. This is what Perrin does. This is what Egwene does. This is what Nynaeve (or Elayne) does. It was only in the last book that some of the characters revealed something new.
Overall, Egwene's story in the last book made me like her immensely again. That was just so cool, the way she behaved in captivity. I look forward to the the resolution. Faile? I have liked her character. But I thought she betrayed the Aiel who was rescuing her pretty harshly. Perrin just bashed his head in and she didn't try to stop him or anything.
I found the Mat and Tuon storyline refreshing, entertaining, and funny. I love how modest Mat is, and then, when pressed, displaying some amazing abilities no one suspected him as having. Just very cool.
Now, I'm all for political intrigue in books. In enjoy political machinations. But the Elayne/Andor (and don't get me started on the Birgitte and Dyelin rift) storyline was so...very...tired. Maybe because there was nothing really invested in the whole thing. You know Elayne is gonna get the throne. And even if she doesn't, so what? How does that affect the main plot (beyond vague difficulties between Rand and the new ruler, or Rand and Elayne, or whatever)? It seemed such artificial tension, kind of like the last few season finales of Smallville. All this great stuff happens. Ooooo, everyone is in danger or dead. But we know the producers are too chicken to actually follow through. Too many times, this has happened, only to have things return to the status quo by the 3rd new episode of a season. That's how this felt. Artificial tension. And a waste of time, considering where we are in the series, how small the books have been of late (have you seen the font size? Huge!!!!), how long a wait it is between books, and the myriad subplots churning. In the last book he began to prune heavily. But I'm not sure he can take care of everything. He may retcon and say, well that's life. But you can't just bring up plot points and ignore them later, when you had a ton of time to do it earlier, but didn't because you were too busy explaining dresses and baths.
Take, for example, the i'pod'angreal (the library from the age of legends that Aviendha found.) Truth is, this library could hold all kinds of keys to defeating the dark one, or building up rand-land technology/infrastructure (including one power tech) to give them a real edge. None of the forsaken or Dark One would be expecting it, so it would completely take them by surprise. Plus, those in this new age use old things in surprisingly new ways. I'm sure this could be used legitimately to give them a fighting chance. But RJ has stated he wants everyone to see that there is no way the light can win, as it stands. None. His cards are so close to his vest, to give this illusion. Thing is, though, you can't just introduce a deus ex machina in the last book (or second to last) and act like you always had it planned. Whatever should help them win should already be out there, though maybe downplayed. And should have been out in the story for a while. (And I doubt it's just the male sangreal in Cairhien). But my hunch is that this device will be dropped completely.
I just wonder if he'll be able to conclude the series and myriad plots in the last book in a satisfying way. But I do hope. And closure is closure.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I got part of the way through book 2 before I stopped. Somewhere when Rand is wandering through that other world and he's so whiny. I couldn't stand it.
As for Martin, I've read the first book of the series, started the second and then stopped because of classwork. I have full intention of reading the rest of them at some point. Currently I'm reading the Kushiel series (on book 2) which I think is awesome.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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Christine, I think you raise a very good point.
Things are really only "cliche" if they don't work. And that was my problem with Wizard's First Rule. It didn't feel like any of the old fantasy tropes were really working for the story. Even ones that weren't horribly overused felt so predictable and lame that it was hard to enjoy.
I actually liked the first few sequels much more than Wizard's First Rule, as it felt to me like he had run through all the essential stereotypes and was starting to actually invent some of his own work. ... Then he decided that instead of ripping off classic fantasy, he'd rip off Ayn Rand. I actually like Ayn Rand quite a bit, and consider myself a libertarian, but it still felt so absurd and tacked on that I quickly lost interest.
To wrap up this thread hijack... I think we actually agree as to the value of calling something "cliche". In general, I shy away from the term because you can twist it around to mean virtually anything is cliche, and it's irrelevant if the story is good. I just make an exception for Wizard's First Rule.
Full Disclosure: I spent a lot of my youth reading mediocre (or downright awful) D&D novels, so my concept of what contitutes an overused fantasy cliche is in great part based on that.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dan, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't read a ton of D&D, medieval style, or Tokienesque fantasy. Actually, I haven't read anything that specifically claims to be a D&D novel, although I have read a few novels by unmemorable authors who wrote so much like a D&D quest that I could hear the dice rolling in the back of my head!
I get it in my head to read from that subset of fantasy about once a year, which is a good pace to keep the story from getting way too overdone in my head. Although, even reading them about once a year, I still manage to pick up some that are just so bad...a friend (who I will never listen to again) recommended David Eddings to me recently. Ugh!! I can't imagine anyone enjoying that who isn't a teenage boy or a teenage boy in a man's body (which, come to think of it, this particular fiend is).
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Hmmm, I picked up a copy of Wizard's First Rule two or three years ago and haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Perhaps I'll remove it from my "to read" list.
I've never touched Jordan's work, and after reading this thread I remain uninterested in doing so.
I read Martin's A Game of Thrones, and wondered why only the prologue grabbed me in the same way that his short Sandkings did. I could have done without a few hundred pages in the middle, and have no current plans to read the rest of the series.
I'm considering the latter two books of Bakker's The Prince of Nothing, but the first one, while interesting, didn't grab me much until the very end.
*
I think my foray into the hardest of hard SF last year may have ruined me for fantasy. Added: Though I do plan to try Glen Cook's Black Company series when the first three books come out in a compilation later this year, so maybe I'll come back to fantasy. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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I am a Wheel of Time fan, and truly hope that the final book can be completed by Jordan.
By definition, fantasy "worlds" take on qualities distinctly of their makers' own minds, and are quite real to the maker. Therefore, they are subject to the moods and makes of the creator. It makes them alive and real and not subject to unmaking (had to) even when the readers want something else.
That is what makes them wonderful.
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It's pretty disappointing that this thread has caused some to shy away from the WOT series. I won't pretend it's perfect (nothing is, really), but it's wonderful. It's real. The only warning I've ever given about this series is to wait until the last book is out to start and I'll stick with that, but otherwise I think it should be on any fantasy lover's "to read" list.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by GodSpoken: By definition, fantasy "worlds" take on qualities distinctly of their makers' own minds, and are quite real to the maker. Therefore, they are subject to the moods and makes of the creator. It makes them alive and real and not subject to unmaking (had to) even when the readers want something else.
To me, this reads as. "You think the series sucks? Well, the author certainly doesn't, and that's all that matters!"
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I think it should be on any fantasy lover's "to read" list.
I cannot disagree more. Sure, if you like your fantasy to be long-winded, full of high-power, magical characters with little or no major plot changes from book-to-book, then far be it from me to stop you from reading it.
However, if you like your authors to have a certain amount of craft and you prefer characters with real motivations and real problems, there's a TON of other work out there that is far better, but much less popular. Maybe this makes me a fantasy elitist, but if being a popularist means I have to read Jordan... bring me the caviar!
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Some people like some books. Some don't. It's largely a matter of opinion. Nevertheless, I fail to see why the possibility that one might not enjoy a series precludes picking it up in the first place and giving it a try.
Yeah, there are naysayers on this series (and most series). I just want to say to those who have decided not to bother, that it is always best to use your own judgment and that the popularity of these books alone indicates that it is at least worth giving them a try. Many things are worthing trying once....I don't need to try some of them again (sea urchin comes to mind) but what did it hurt me to try it once?
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quote:Originally posted by kojabu: What would you recommend then PC?
If you want some beautifully dense and well-written fantasy (with vague SF elements), I cannot recommend Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series more. It's a refreshingly mature series that will warp your perception of what fantasy can be and perhaps what it should be. It reads like a narrative poem re-written as prose. The imagery and symbolism are deep- it's not a light read, but the four books are each short (typically they're collected into two volumes of two books each).
I started reading Wolfe on saxon75's recommendation, and I haven't regretted it. I cannot recommend it enough.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Well I have to agree with you Primal, on your assessment of the series, thought I did enjoy books 1, 3, 4, 5 and 7, when I first read them. However shortly after reading them I stumbled on:
which I can't seem to access any more. But it made me stop, and look back on the books, in which previously I'd only noticed one major flaw - the repeated hyper-dramatic endings that went nowhere, and I suddenly noticed all the things everyone had mentioned. I should have really got some sort of warning when I skipped book 2 and it didn't make the slightest bit of difference to the story, little had changed and I barely even heard of those events again for several more books, and even then it wasn't important. (Note to fans of his, I may have got the books numbers wrong, but that's vaguely what I remember)
I have to disagree with you over Gene Wolfe though, I've only read the beginning of the Book of the New Sun, twice, and one of his short stories, and I have to say I found both of them so incredibly boring that I'm almost falling asleep right now thinking about them. Perhaps I didn't give it long enough, or was somehow missing something vital to your interest in the story, but it just didn't seem to have anything to hold me to it, or make me want to turn the next page. I still have it lying around somewhere, so if you feel like it, try and pitch it to me, or give me some sort of explanation of why you liked it so much, and I'll have another go and see if I can see that in it.
For really good fantasy I cannot recommend more highly anyone than the late great and lamented David Gemmell, particularly Echoes of the Great Song, Dark Moon and the highly underrated (even by me when I first read it), Winter Warriors. Hell, and the Jon Shannow series.
I'd second the recommendation of George R. R. Martin, even though they are definitely not books for people who like their favourite characters, y'know, alive. But then again, I'm a massive Spooks fan, so clearly that's not a problem for me. In fact one of the things that I really like about the series is the fact that when I started it, it seemed incredibly clear the directions it was going to take, and fairly cliched in many ways, but every twist and turn of the story has been a complete surprise to me, and although I still reckon I can predict a few things coming, I've not been right once so far! His books are epic in a far larger, and more realised sense than Jordan, and without the sort of repetitious pointless writing that people have complained about. And the plot is always moving on, which is something I love in a book.
posted
I had the fortune/misfortune to read the first several books as they were coming out, once a year, every year. Each time a new book came out, I'd have to re-read all of the previous ones, because each book picked up right where the previous one left off.
The first book does take several chapters before it gets beyond the basic "evil things coming, must leave town" plotline, but it grows and grows into a richly imagined world that pulls from a variety of cultures and mythos. Jordan's ability to tie these disperate pieces together gradually, over the course of several books, is a big part of what drew me into the series.
This went on for about five years... and I was intensely happy with the series... and then, gradually, the story lines wandered so far afield that I could not maintain interest. I can no longer remember exactly which book it was that I could not complete in spite of many attempts at re-reading it.
When I learned from a friend that the subsequent books were not improving, but were getting worse, I gave up, furious at how many hours, days, months (!) I had given to this story that simply was not living up to the promise of the first several books.
I was so disillusioned that I gave up completely on series for at least a decade. The Harry Potter books have restored my faith in long series to some degree, but I am still rather wary.
It is a supremely difficult task to keep a story going over many years and thousands of pages. I truly hope that Robert Jordan is able to complete the series, but I will not re-read it. That ship has long ago sailed.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Andrew W: I have to disagree with you over Gene Wolfe though, I've only read the beginning of the Book of the New Sun, twice, and one of his short stories, and I have to say I found both of them so incredibly boring that I'm almost falling asleep right now thinking about them. Perhaps I didn't give it long enough, or was somehow missing something vital to your interest in the story, but it just didn't seem to have anything to hold me to it, or make me want to turn the next page. I still have it lying around somewhere, so if you feel like it, try and pitch it to me, or give me some sort of explanation of why you liked it so much, and I'll have another go and see if I can see that in it.
I don't know how long ago you gave it a shot, but you may be in a situation much like I was when I first read the Dune series.
I was a sophomore in high school, 15, and I absolutely loved Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. They were so action-packed and plot-oriented that I couldn't put them down. There was still a good level of characterization, but there were also other things to keep me going (Spaceships! Lasers! Sword Fights!).
I couldn't get past the first few pages of Heretics of Dune. God Emperor had so completely bored me, but the momentum of the first few books carried me through (and the ending wasn't bad).
I already owned Heretics and Chapterhouse, but they were so dense and I was so bored by God Emperor that I shelved them for years.
When I was in my 20's, I decided to re-read the series. I still enjoyed the first three books, but I found myself much more intrigued by some of the sub-plots and characters than I had been before. I also really enjoyed God Emperor despite finding it dull before. When I finally got to Heretics and Chapterhouse I had enough momentum that I easily got through those early pages and found the books to also be very enjoyable.
The reason? I don't know, maturity was probably one thing, but I had also read a lot more SF between 15 and 21/22 (however old I was) that had developed my taste for more than just a neato laser pistol (though I still have to admit a sort of Spielburgian joy in cool gadgetry).
I also found myself enjoying words more than actions. I now enjoy not only what is going on in the story, but I enjoy the way the story is told. I can read really fast, but I deliberately choose to slow down and enjoy what I'm reading.
For me, this development has lead me to enjoy things like Wolfe, who seems to relish in putting beautiful words and images to page. I think this may also be why I enjoyed Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrel as much as I did (apart from being a huge Anglophile).
Not that I don't enjoy a good modern narrative. I do love Martin, after all, and he's a master.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Interesting (to me anyway), I am waiting for my copy of Book of the New Sun to arrive. I have heard high praise for the writing of Gene Wolfe, and am going to give it a try.
Other books over the years that have rewarded my efforts:
Tigana and A Song For Arbonne by Guy Gavriel Kay (both single books with a beginning, middle and end... go figure)
The Earthsea Trilogy by Ursula le Guin (sp?)... short reads and immensely satisfying
Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune by Frank Herbert... long and sometimes difficult reads (and perhaps not for everyone) but worthwhile, nonetheless... I found the themes of prophecy and god-like power (possessing it, escaping it, overcoming it, etc.) presented in a far more complex and eloquent fashion by these books than in the WOT series.
The Harry Potter series by JK Rowling - far better than I ever expected it to be... I resisted the hype for years; turns out, it actually lives up to (perhaps surpasses) the hype.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I thought Dune was awful. (I only read the original book.) I'm not sure why it's so popular, but then again, it won't be the first thing that's made me wonder that. I found it to be utterly unbelievable. Don't remember the characters too much so can't comment on characterization, but it definitely didn't stand out.
AW -- how on earth did you skip the second book in WOT and not notice? It's all about how Rand comes to understand and accept that he is the Dragon Reborn and how the legend begins to filter through the world. That was an important book, at least as good as the first, maybe better. (I've heard some say they like it better and can't argue with their reasoning.) I mean, if you'd said you'd skipped some of the later books and never noticed I'd have some sympathy, but I'm struggling to understand the book 2 thing. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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How can you dislike a story like Dune for being "unbelievable," and yet actively defend a series of books that showcase people using unexplained, god-like magical powers on a daily basis? Reality/unreality is hardly a measure of a books enjoyment. The ability of the author to suspend disbelief may be an indicator. I'd say the number of people who have loved Dune in particular shows that Herbert hardly had a problem with that.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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I don't mind Jordan's long-windedness that much. What I mind in the blatant attempt to use his books as a cash cow. I enjoy reading them, but the last 6 or so (discounting 11), didn't feel like they went anywhere. There's very little keeping the story going.
On the other hand - Goodkind's books I liked. Again, he seems to be drawing it out way too long. It looks like he's ready to end it, then BAM! - A New Problem! However, I've seen a lot of negative comments about his "preaching" in the books. I found the book where it gets the most blatant (Faith of the Fallen) to be his best one. So what if he preaches - I loved the book.
As for George R. R. Martin - I think he's got the potential to do what both of the others couldn't, finish a series. And he creates a much more original, and lively, story while doing it. Time will tell I suppose.
Posts: 39 | Registered: Apr 2007
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I'm a fan of Kay as well, though my favourite of his is the two-book Sarantine Mosaic.
Oh, I also love Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos books. Light, but extremely engaging, and with interesting character development over the course of the series so far.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:I also found myself enjoying words more than actions. I now enjoy not only what is going on in the story, but I enjoy the way the story is told. I can read really fast, but I deliberately choose to slow down and enjoy what I'm reading.
For me, this development has lead me to enjoy things like Wolfe, who seems to relish in putting beautiful words and images to page. I think this may also be why I enjoyed Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrel as much as I did (apart from being a huge Anglophile).
Not that I don't enjoy a good modern narrative. I do love Martin, after all, and he's a master.
Yeah, I was a fair bit younger. I also mainly enjoy books for the plot, interesting characters, or the ideas (generally more the physical or imaginative ideas more than philosophical ones since I prefer my philosophy in actual philosophy rather than in the middle of a book that should really be about something else that's actually happening in the book), though from time to time I enjoy beautiful words and images, but again mainly only when tied to a strong, or at least interesting narrative that has in some way some sort of purpose. That was my problem with the short story I read by Gene Wolfe, it had great imagery, brilliant writing, but went absolutely nowhere. A bunch of things happened, in a reasonable way, but there was no narrative, and I couldn't see any reason we were being told this story. I might have another look some time.
quote:AW -- how on earth did you skip the second book in WOT and not notice? It's all about how Rand comes to understand and accept that he is the Dragon Reborn and how the legend begins to filter through the world. That was an important book, at least as good as the first, maybe better. (I've heard some say they like it better and can't argue with their reasoning.) I mean, if you'd said you'd skipped some of the later books and never noticed I'd have some sympathy, but I'm struggling to understand the book 2 thing.
Yeah, now I think about it, it may have been 3. The one where they go off to another dimension/land? and have some sort of battle or something with a bunch of people. They feature later in the series as well.
Actually scratch that, I just checked wikipedia, and despite the fact I don't seem to recognise almost anything that happened in the books, I think it was book 2 I skipped, since it involved some sort of boat people. If it was, then I stick by the feeling that I really didn't notice missing much at all when I'd started the next book. It wasn't that nothing at all had happened, just that what happened was either obvious, mentioned again, or irrelevant to the continuing story. (Until the boat people reappear)
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If there are still any people out there who are interested in this series, I have some books to offer. I've got a surplus of nos. 2, 4, 5, 6 (and possibly others, by the time I've finished cleaning my room and digging books out of every possible hidey-hole). YOURS, for the low low price of shipping.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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) but does each characters nervous tics and every mundane detail need to be repeated over and over and over and over and over and over again?
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