quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: At this point I really could care less what OSC wants discussed here and what not. He doesn't, as far as I know, read the forum. <snip> If it isn't, Osc's personal wishes are just that- personal.
So the fact that he pays for the site, and it has his name on it, means nothing to you?
You may consider yourself not invited into my living room.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I don't consider it to be his living room if he never enters it. That is my point.
1) Never is a long time. A large part of WHY he doesn't post here very often (although considerably more often than "never," at least over on the other side) is because he feels disrespected in his own place.
2) If the man had never once posted here, and did not even have a screenname, it would still be a place that HE pays for. You want a place you can do things your way? Pay for one. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I don't find either Orincoro's or TL's critiques particularly severe or damning. In fact, I think both posters tried very hard to express their positive feelings towards our host and his writing.
Yet . . .
OSC has stated repeatedly that he isn't comfortable reading or hearing criticisms of his work. I don't think it's because of "thin skin" but because he puts so much of himself into his works that they really are like his own children, and it's uncomfortable to see your children criticized. As an artist myself, I put a great deal of myself into my own work, so I understand the feeling, and if I had my own website, I would be a little offended if people chose to post criticisms of my work on it, sincere though they may be. This isn't to say I think I haven't any need of criticism--I'm far from perfect. Its just I wouldn't want to hear it in an unsolicited way on a site I've paid for.
The living room metaphor, though flawed, is appropriate here. Even though the Hatrack forum community is pretty far removed from OSC's daily life (I don't think he pays much attention to our day-to-day happenings,) he still pays for it. I think he maintains the Hatrack forums, at significant personal expense, mostly because of the great community of people (not all necessarily OSC fans) that exists here. It really is an amazing community, which I'm proud to be a part of, even though I am an infrequent poster. So to sum up, even though I feel the particular criticisms were polite, sincere, and with some merit, they simply aren't appropriate here.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I really think the Living Room metaphor is almost completely inapplicable to this side of hatrack.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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Show me where I have violated the terms of service please, Rivka- I may very well have (perhaps with a "personal" attack). OSC's stated opinions in the forum are not, as far as I know, included in the official forum rules. There are reasons for stating terms of service and generally accepted etiquette is not the same thing as a rule. If OSC wishes members to abide by his infrequent and unofficial statements of belief, then he should post them in the terms of service.
As is, the rest of the forum is simply telling me how they think OSC feels. If it is not a rule, please excuse me for not either being fully aware of it, or paying it the same heed as a I would a posted rule.
"His way" of doing things should be stated in his terms of use. Otherwise we can't be expected to keep up on how OSC feels about a forum he doesn't use. And, honestly, if he doesn't like it I hope he does stop paying for it- though I don't think, as some people have suggested, that the cost to him has been particularly onerous. The forum likely pays for itself in sales from the website alone, and there are ads.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I'm curious--has OSC ever posted on this side of the forum? I've never seen it, and I always thought this side of the forum was more open to discussion about OSC's works in that respect because he doesn't post here.
On a similar note, people keep saying how OSC doesn't like coming here because he is derided and criticized. On the whole, what I've seen is hundreds and hundreds of supporters and defenders of OSC while 1 or 2 people criticize him. I feel like maybe he concentrates too much on the very few people who are less considerate than the hundreds of others who like him. It's a shame that he would let a few people ruin it for him.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I'm curious--has OSC ever posted on this side of the forum? I've never seen it, and I always thought this side of the forum was more open to discussion about OSC's works in that respect because he doesn't post here.
On a similar note, people keep saying how OSC doesn't like coming here because he is derided and criticized. On the whole, what I've seen is hundreds and hundreds of supporters and defenders of OSC while 1 or 2 people criticize him. I feel like maybe he concentrates too much on the very few people who are less considerate than the hundreds of others who like him. It's a shame that he would let a few people ruin it for him.
When I first started posting here I saw him occasionally on this side of the forum. When I met him back in the spring of this year I mentioned that we missed him on this side of the forum and he said that he tries to mostly visit the OSC side of the forums so that he can answer questions about him and his work specifically.
I've seen him treated quite brutally on this side of the forums. Whenever he has said he does not like being criticized in his, "living room" a whole slew of people saying many of the same things Orincoro and others have said in their defense dog pile him. Everything from, if you don't like criticism grow up, and if your views are right they can stand up to criticism.
Also just because you do not see a whole bunch of people right now saying anything negative does not mean there aren't lurkers who spring up once they see an outlet.
We are not in a position to second guess Mr. Card's intentions, he has stated them quite clearly and it's in the terms of the forums I believe. I've been to MANY other forums dealing with literature and have seen PLENTY of people giving all sorts of criticisms of Mr. Card and his work. Go there if you need your fix.
We seem to be having two conversations in this thread.
1: Nobody ACTUALLY criticized Mr. Card, and therefore nobody is at fault.
2: Who is Mr. Card to say we can't talk about him? I don't think the living room analogy is accurate.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I've seen him treated quite brutally on this side of the forums.
Brutally? Really? At worst, I'd say I've seen him treated impolitely. When have you seen him treated brutally by anyone?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Blackblade- Perhaps the reason he was verbally "dog-piled" was because there is a certain unfairness in entering any discussion on a forum, even your own, and being overly sensitive to criticism- to the point where you actually expect people to treat the forum like your property. I just don't think people think that way- the forum comes into all our living rooms. I see the analogy, I get the point, and I think it's just kind of silly.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I've been to MANY other forums dealing with literature and have seen PLENTY of people giving all sorts of criticisms of Mr. Card and his work. Go there if you need your fix.
Nobody "needs a fix." We're having a conversation, not grinding an axe.
quote:We seem to be having two conversations in this thread.
1: Nobody ACTUALLY criticized Mr. Card, and therefore nobody is at fault.
2: Who is Mr. Card to say we can't talk about him? I don't think the living room analogy is accurate
That's what you're hearing? What's being said is this:
1. There are criticisms and then there are criticisms. It's not reasonable to treat one the same as the other.
2. It's not just his living room*, if it is at all -- it's also our community.
*I'm glad he pays for us to be here.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I've seen him treated quite brutally on this side of the forums.
Brutally? Really? At worst, I'd say I've seen him treated impolitely. When have you seen him treated brutally by anyone?
I think we are merely disagreeing on the usage of brutal. I don't mean somebody physically mauled him or said, "You should never have been born Mr. Card."
If somebody having enjoyed the fruits of my labors said to my face, "Your labor is pretty sub par now." That to me is behavior so lacking in tact that it borders on brutal. That does not mean I think badly of people who have done those things, I understand where they are coming from. I'm not trying to make this conversation a volatile one.
Perhaps Mr. Card will read this thread, or another, perhaps not. But as a guest in general I've never been very comfortable criticizing my hosts when they are not around.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:That to me is behavior so lacking in tact that it borders on brutal.
Ah. See, I've actually seen people behave brutally to each other, so my definition of "brutal" is not coterminous with "impolite."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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