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Author Topic: Which Genre is Considered 'Worse'? Sci-fi, or Fantasy?
Nathan2006
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By 'worse' I mean, morally wrong.

Which genre do more people rag on for being morally wrong?

I don't believe it's wrong to read Harry Potter, others do.

I don't believe that reading The Dragonriders of Pern is wrong; neither does anybody I've ever met.

Why is that? Why does fantasy draw so much more ire than sci-fi?

I was just wondering what everyone else's experience has been?

In my experience, more people view fantasy books to be wrong, in and of themselves (Unless they are some sort of allegory) than sci-fi books.

I'm not trying to berate people that believe that certain fantasy books are evil, I was just wondering (In my typical random way) whether or not sci-fi books get as much of a bad rap. Are they censored as much? If not, why not?

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The Pixiest
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Generally, there's no "witchcraft" in sci fi and there frequently is in fantasy.
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Noemon
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And the bible is pretty much mute on the subject of cyborgs, space ships, and such.
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Liz B
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And people don't like HP because they've heard of it. (Same with LotR, for some groups.) Lots of people hate The Giver (scifi)--they know to hate it because it won the Newbery and it's used in lots of schools. No one is up in arms about under-the-radar books, and most scifi is under the radar for most people...particularly the type of people who think books are super scary.
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Nathan2006
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Didn't some religious people really get angry when they heard about Octavia Butler's 'Parable of the Sower'? It's kind of before my time, so I wouldn't know. That seems like a book that, if people haven't read it, some people might find extermely offensive.

I, personally, really liked it, by the way. [Smile]

I don't know. It was just a random thought.

I just realized how few people I know have a problem with sci-fi... Not that large amount of them have problem with fantasy.

Hmm. I'm rambling now. I'll stop.

[Smile]

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
And the bible is pretty much mute on the subject of cyborgs, space ships, and such.

Cloning?
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pH
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What is supposed to be objectionable about the Giver?

-pH

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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
And the bible is pretty much mute on the subject of cyborgs, space ships, and such.

Cloning?
It mentions cloning in the bible?
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Noemon
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Something about not suffering a clone to live, I think.
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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
Something about not suffering a clone to live, I think.

And here I've been, burning clowns at the stake all this time.
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Lyrhawn
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A misreading that I think still works out for the best. [Smile]
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hugh57
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I think some of it may have to do with there being more fantasy written for the YA market than science fiction. People get more up in arms about books they think their kids are actually reading. Most all the science fiction (even Robert Heinlein's "juveniles") are over in the Adult section of most bookstores and libraries. [Dont Know]
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The White Whale
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Nathan, I don't think you can argue that either fantasy or science fiction is 'morally wrong.' I base many of my morals and beliefs on some of the stories of the great minds in science fiction. These genres are not there to corrupt youth, or debase religion.

However, there are specific cases where these stories to attack religion (e.g. Arthur C. Clarke's The Star). Well, maybe not attack, but throw into question. Toss in that element of "What if...?"

As for Harry Potter, I would love my future children to read the story, to take out the morals JK put into her books.

And some can be objectionable. How about OSC's Kingsmeat? How far would you go to save peoples lives? Would you be willing to hurt them, and hide the truth from them? Would you sacrifice your companionship and compassion for a greater purpose? The story is disturbing, but far from immoral.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Javert:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
And the bible is pretty much mute on the subject of cyborgs, space ships, and such.

Cloning?
It mentions cloning in the bible?
From the reactions of most religious groups, you'd think so.
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Scott R
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I agree with Ray Bradbury:

quote:
Science-fiction is the law-abiding citizen of imaginative literature, obeying the rules, be they physical, social, or psychological, keeping regular hours, eating punctual meals; predictable, certain, sure.

Fantasy, on the other hand, is criminal. Each fantasy assaults and breaks a particular law; the crime being hidden by the author's felicitous thought and style which cover the body before blood is seen.

Science-fiction works hand-in-glove with the universe.

Fantasy cracks it down the middle, turns it wrong-side-out, dissolves it to invisibility, walks men through its walls, and fetches incredible circuses to town with sea-serpent, medusa, and chimera displacing zebra, ape, and armadillo.

Science-fiction balances you on the cliff. Fantasy shoves you off. (From the Introduction to The Circus of Dr. Lao)


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Olivet
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*creeps up behind Scott R*
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anti_maven
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
Something about not suffering a clone to live, I think.

Ah, there you see you are labouring under a misapprehension. It stems from a mistranslation from the original Hebrew.

For clown read MIME.

One of the later discoveries within the Dead Sea Scrolls was the following passage:

"And it came to pass that before the assembled throng, Mizkbiek did vest himself in stripéd garb and make as if he were entrappéd in a box.

Wroth was the Lord and smote him even unto death."

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anti_maven
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BTW - returning to the matter at hand

Fantasy often deal with ideas of Good and Evil on an grand scale, including Gods and Men (my caps).

This is bound to rile those of a more fundamental approach to religion.

Robots and laserbeams are less threatening.

*edit*

That said, didn't Stranger in Strange Land cause a furor for its 'immorality'?

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by anti_maven:
quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
Something about not suffering a clone to live, I think.

Ah, there you see you are labouring under a misapprehension. It stems from a mistranslation from the original Hebrew.

For clown read MIME.

One of the later discoveries within the Dead Sea Scrolls was the following passage:

"And it came to pass that before the assembled throng, Mizkbiek did vest himself in stripéd garb and make as if he were entrappéd in a box.

Wroth was the Lord and smote him even unto death."

Very, very nice.
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Scott R
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quote:
Originally posted by Olivet:
*creeps up behind Scott R*

You're free-falling, too?
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Primal Curve
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
And the bible is pretty much mute on the subject of cyborgs, space ships, and such.

But not on regeneration crèches.
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ketchupqueen
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The creche didn't go through labor and delivery in a barn. Just so we're clear here.
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Teshi
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quote:
Science-fiction balances you on the cliff. Fantasy shoves you off. (From the Introduction to The Circus of Dr. Lao)
I was going to question this but I think that within the situation and they way that sci fi and fantasy are defined, it's right when it comes to the laws of the universe.

However, looking at it from a point of view that pays more attention to morals, traditional views and roles and other such 'rules', it is the opposite way around. Fantasy often presents a fairly traditional society, often one in the past. Sci fi takes societies, societal roles and regulations, pasts and futures, conventional identities and often smashes them to pieces. For example, novels that imagine a world where men are unimportant or entirely non-existent, or like in On The Beach where the human race just extinguishes itself in a puff of radiation, or in Neuromancer, where the virtual world rivals the real world... they may fit 'within' the scientific laws of our universe, but they don't fit within our expectations as a society. To lose our physical nature, to kill ourselves off, to demolish the male/female duality of our society, to have other societies conflicting with our own- these aren't "robots and laser beams" they are just as disconcerting as flying dragons and magic potions. That is, assuming you regard flying dragons and magic potions as disconcerting.

In addition, science fiction often reinvents, ignores or sidesteps the concept of God completely. Think of those books (Robert Sawyer?) where a Neanderthal world comes into contact with a Human world; or, like someone mentioned, The Parable of the Sower; or, Asimov's short story called something like The Last/Final Question. They are either Godless or actively questioning and rethinking the nature of God. Fantasy does this too, but I think that ultimately fantasy has a more religious nature.

I think that saying that fantasy is more edgy (or completely over the edge) is really only half the story.

I don't disagree that fantasy is generally considered "worse", though. It certainly seems to be very upsetting to certain people to have people throwing around coloured light.

Me, I'm totally clinging on to the edge of the cliff, one-handed, Aladdin-style.

"First throw me the lamp!"

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Scott R
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Teshi, I think that's a good point.
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littlemissattitude
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Based entirely on my own experience of some of the reactions that I've had from people to my reading of fantasy, I'd say that some of the problem comes from the fact that some people just have no imagination at all and are extremely frightened of those who do.
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Saephon
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I'll agree with Ms. Attitude above me.
Neither genre is bad; it's narrow-minded people who are the bane of literature.

To not be a jerk and completely circumvent the question though; yes, fantasy is perceived in a worse light [Smile]

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Javert
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I work with a woman who told me she didn't read Harry Potter because she didn't take to "witchcraft stuff".

Only my extreme respect for her allowed me to keep a straight face.

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Belle
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But guys, people who don't want to read Harry Potter, or don't want their kids to read it - that's completely within their rights. Please, let's not paint people with a large brush marked "Ignorant, fundamentalist nutjobs" just because they decide a certain genre is unsuitable for their children to read.

I do know people who don't want their kids to read books that portray witchcraft as something positive. That's their choice. I don't agree with it - I'm reading the HP series aloud to my kids, we're on Prisoner of Azkaban right now - but I do respect their decisions and choices and their rights to make those decisions.

I get called a prude because I'm not fond of entertainment that portrays adultery as a positive. I don't want to watch or read things that glorify the act of cheating on your spouse. That's because marriage is something very important to me, and I don't find disparaging it to be entertaining.

I also know people who choose not to let their kids play video games - they think the games can influence their kids negatively. Again, I don't agree, my kids play video games, but it doesn't mean that the people who feel that way are necessarily narrow-minded, or have no imagination, or anything else. It just means they, as a parent who is deciding what media they want their child exposed to, drew the line in a different place than I would.

Where it becomes an issue is when people try to restrict access through censoring, or banning books. While I think there is a place for limiting what might be available in a school library, especially in the lower elementary grades, I am against outright book bans that prevent me from having access to a book simply because it might contain elements of fantasy or witchcraft.

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pooka
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quote:
Didn't some religious people really get angry when they heard about Octavia Butler's 'Parable of the Sower'? It's kind of before my time, so I wouldn't know. That seems like a book that, if people haven't read it, some people might find extermely offensive
Did you read Parable of the Talents? I mean, you know, I liked it too, but it wouldn't take a very big reach to say it was a little anti-religion.
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Liz B
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quote:
What is supposed to be objectionable about the Giver?
1. It presents a utopian society that is school-centered and anti-family.

2. In this society, euthenasia is standard.

3. There is a graphic scene involving euthenasia.

4. Jonas goes through puberty.

These are pretty standard objections. It was one of the most challenged books in the 90s.

By the way, I tend to agree with Belle about the parent's right to determine what the child reads. But that parent shouldn't determine what other people's kids read or don't read--and that's what challenges are about: removing a book from a library or reading list. (I'm ambivalent about removing books from elementary school libraries. I can see why some parents would NOT want a young child reading The Giver. I probably wouldn't want my own kid reading it before, say, age 10 or 11. This is a total guess on ages...my expertise definitely doesn't start until about age 12.)

Edited because I had misrepresented what Belle said

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porcelain girl
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I personally am incredibly frustrated with people that won't read Harry Potter for moral reasons. They usually ARE narrow minded and fearful. Or just ignorant. And I don't mean ignorant in an insulting way, I mean they aren't familiar with the actual contents of the story. Harry Potter is all about some sacrifice and love thy neighbor.

In Harry Potter people aren't denying God(s) or worshipping God(s) and magic is genetic.

It's like flipping X-Men. It's not witchcraft, it's running faster because you have longer legs.

And if anyone finds that offensive because it has semantic or superficial similarity to witchcraft in our context, then fine. But they probably aren't friends with me. I'm pretty witchy, anyway.

I agree that it is their right to avoid art and literature...but it is also my right to avoid *them*.

Anyway, along with the topic:
Fantasy usually gets a bad rap for witchcraft and sorcery.
Sci Fi gets a bad rap for not inviting the G to the O to the D to the party.

I don't find any genre in particular offensive, though there certainly are books that offend me. They aren't usually fiction though. [Smile] There is only one book I have ever destroyed/thrown away, and its title is not suitable for Hatrack. I just loathed it that much.

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Saephon
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This:
quote:
There is only one book I have ever destroyed/thrown away, and its title is not suitable for Hatrack. I just loathed it that much.
Almost intrigued me as much as this:

quote:
I'm pretty witchy, anyway.
[Smile]
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Lupus
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quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:

In Harry Potter people aren't denying God(s) or worshipping God(s) and magic is genetic.

It's like flipping X-Men. It's not witchcraft, it's running faster because you have longer legs.

But you are forgetting...for the most part, the people who hate the books have not actually read them...so they don't understand this.
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AvidReader
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The kids my mom used to teach would get really into the witchcraft part of the stories. Interestingly, she said it was the ones whose mothers were Wiccan or Pagan who would obsess about it. Or the kids claimed they were witches. Or the moms claimed they were. <Insert appropriate level of disbelief here.>

Personally, I found the magic to be the least offensive part of the books. Point a wand at something. Say some faux-Latin. Done. I'm not into witchcraft, but I'm going to take a wild leap and guess that's not how it works.

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Toretha
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To be fair to the people who object on moral grounds to witchcraft: there are plenty of people who have just heard that witchcraft is bad in church or somewhere else, and just never stopped to properly analyze fantasy as anything other than something which contains witchcraft. Doesn't necessarily mean they're foolish or narrow-minded, it just means they haven't really thought about what's in the books beyond that point.

I worked in the maintenance department at a school, and a lot of the people I worked with were southern baptists who had been taught that witchcraft was bad, and then extrapolated that to fantasy being bad. But when I'd stop to talk to them about why, or explain why I felt differently, they listened to me, and a bunch of them did change their minds about letting their kids read Harry Potter. A couple even borrowed copies from me to give to their kids.

Often as not, it's just people not thinking.

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Nathan2006
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Thanks for responding everybody (It's labor day weekend, and I haven't been able to check back yet.)

In response to an earlier question, no, I haven't read 'Parables of the Talent' yet. I mean to, though.

In case anybody misunderstood me, I really wasn't trying to condemn anybody who moniters what their kids read. I have no problem with it. Especially since I used to be anti-HP. [Smile]

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