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Once again, I stop back by for technological related help. I was gonna say something along the lines of "One day I promise I'll be back to stay" but then I realized ya'll probably barely remember me . It's all good.
Anyways, I just came into a sum of money and have been thinking about getting a new computer. First off, would anyone like to try to dissuade me from getting a Mac? I don't want to spend over $2000, preferably closer to $1500 if possible. I realize I could get one good looking PC for that price, but ... well, I want a Mac. But if anyone can give me a compelling reason not to, I'm open to convincing.
I want to get a new computer because I don't know that I'll be able to financially justify it anytime in the near future, and I can now. I'm looking for something semi all-purpose, but I do plan on doing some pretty heavy video editing on it. Nothing really professional grade, but quality stuff. On the Apple website it lets you build your own iMac basically. So my questions are ...
Is it worth the money to upgrade from 1 GB of memory to 2 GB (upgrading to 4 is out of my price range)?
Are there any other things I should really be focusing on (Processor, graphics card, etc)?
Should I get Final Cut Express thingermajig, for an extra $150? I've heard rave reviews about it and it looks puurrttyy, so this is another one that is going to take some convincing to dissuade me. But I'm open to it or any comments at all.
What's the deal with Mac platforms? If someone could explain it to me like I know nothing about Tigers or Leopards or ... anything. What would I be getting on my Mac if I got it tomorrow? Is there anything newer coming out I should wait for? Etc etc.
And pretty much anything else you can think of. Really. Anything. I am completely new to Mac's, only having played around very briefly on my friends. But I am sick of Windows and really don't want Windows Vista. So just tell me anything I might should know before I spend a large sum of money on one.
I love you guys and once I get the time, I promise, I'll come back. Not for your sakes, but for mine. Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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If you want a mac in that price range that can do video editing, an iMac is the way to go.
Even with the video editing, you're probably okay with just a gig of RAM. I do like having two gigs, but if you're as price sensitive as you suggest, it probably isn' tworth it. What do you mean by "pretty heavy video editing"? We won't be able to evaluate the utility of FC Express without that information. It is a very good editing program.
Processor-wise, the speed won't matter so much, but if some of the processors have a larger cache, that would be good. Lets see . . . Looks like the iMacs are all 4MB caches, so you're fine there.
If you got the mac tomorrow, you would receive OS X 10.4, Tiger. That's just the current version of OS X. The next version (10.5, Leopard) will be released in October, and I'd advise holding off on a purchase until then if that's within reason.
I wouldn't worry too much about the video card, given your stated uses.
Are you a student or staff member of an educational institution?
If I were purchasing an iMac for you, I'd go with the 20" 2.4 Ghz, upgrade to 2 gigs of RAM, maybe upgrade to a 500GB HD (depends on what you mean by "pretty heavy video editing"). My second purchase would either be a very large, pretty fast external HD (Firewire 800, preferably; faster throughput and lower overhead than USB2, but more expensive) to use as a scratch disk, or a second monitor, depending.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I guess by "pretty heavy" I mean as much as I can. I have a bunch of old 8 mm tapes stored in DV format on an external hard drive (I have a 500 GB one, so there's that), so I'll be playing around with that, as well as making short video's with whatever footage I can get a hold of. So nothing professional, but I guess I'll say I'd rather have features I don't use than features I wish I had.
I'm a student at FSU. The thing about waiting until October is that I get a free iPod if I buy one before the 16th . Will the new OS make the price go up less than if I just bought it separately when it comes out in October?
Sorry if I'm not being coherent. I've had a long day. Thanks for your help.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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The new OS will not affect the price at all, and there is no expected price drop or upgrade for the iMacs in the next few months. If you want the free iPod, go for it. OS X isn't too expensive for students anyways, and you probably won't even notice that you don't have the newest OS.
You probably don't need Final Cut Express, I'd hold off on that. Your iMac will come with the latest version of iLife, which will include the latest version of iMovie. You'll want to also download the previous version of iMovie (its available free), because it is more capable for video editing (though also harder to use for a novice, which is why it was replaced).
Since you won't be getting Final Cut Express and you will be getting the student discount (make sure you buy from the education apple store), I recommend you get the 24" iMac. Screen real estate is valuable.
The lower-priced 24" upgraded to 2 GB RAM and a 500 GB HD is $1924, which is in your price range (if barely ).
Btw, is it necessary you have office? If so, what usage will it be put to, and does your school have a microsoft deal that makes it only a few dollars?
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'll be keeping my laptop which has Office, so I'm good there. Should I get iWork or whatever that is?
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I like iWork a lot, but it won't be necessary if you have Office on another machine. I consider all three of the iWork apps superior to their office doubles for producing presentational material. Keynote is particularly good, Pages has superior layout capabilities to Word, though is not quite as good for a word processor, and I haven't had a chance to fool with Numbers, but it seems to have many of the excellent page layout capabilities of Pages.
If you produce a lot of flyers, resumes, slideshow presentations, or numerical summaries for third party consumption, it would probably be worth getting.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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How much of an educational discount is there on macs? I've heard that several times, but never with numbers actual savings.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Macs can be as much as 60-100% more expensive then the equivilent PC and not nessasarily for the better, if you wanna spend 1500$ which is probably 2000$ Canadian or fairly close buy a PC.
This is assuming your doing any gaming on it, if you wish to do purely work and video editing then I geuss a Mac is fine.
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JT: Depending on the price, usually $50 to $150 dollars. There's also a once-per-person deal you can get by paying $100 to get a Student Developer Connection membership with a hardware purchase credit, then use that credit to get a significant discount on a mac. If you're buying an expensive mac, that discount can be hundreds of dollars. It isn't worth it if you're planning on spending less than $2000, usually.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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At this moment, a Canadian dollar is worth 95 cents American. I wonder if it'll be worth more than an American dollar soon.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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In trouble? Not at all, the exchange rate changes have probably given the US more benefit than they have Canada.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Is Blayne's argument a valid one? I mean, I know I could get a good PC wih the money, but from what I've heard, and experienced, PC's depreciate something awful, whereas I've heard Mac's really keep their value. I'm wanting this to be a reaonably long term purchase, as I doubt I'll be financially able to afford anything like this anytime in the near future. So I want to make sure I get my money's worth.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Not really, excepting that if you want to play certain categories of games
Comparing comparable computers, Macs are often a bit more expensive, but nowhere near what he claims. I'll put together a similar PC from Dell to check.
Okay, an XPS 210, with a 2.4 Ghz processor, 2 gigs of RAM, 500 GB HD, and 24" ultrasharp . . . it can't even be configured with more than a 128M X1300, while the iMac has a 256M HD 2600 pro . . . Okay, that's just plain more expensive, not as good, and larger. Looking at Dell's site, I can't see how you can put together a machine with the same stats and as good a screen, and have it be cheaper, much less as small as an iMac.
So I take it back. At least in some categories, including the iMac, the mac is cheaper for what you want.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
PCs look cheaper because they have a broader range; i.e. you can buy a $400 piece o'crap PC, whereas you won't find a $400 Mac.
however, when you compare higher-end PCs and Macs point-by-point, the Mac is apt to be cheaper. Excluding (in my experience), the monitor... I'd buy a Mac but buy a monitor from a Fry's or Best Buy or something. Unless you want it to be match-y.
I love my Mac Powerbook, which is pretty new; it was around fifteen hundred (a refurb) and is amazing overall, great gaming computer. Boy Toy's desktop Mac is still going strong 7 years later, and (although it's slower then my laptop) it's still good for gaming and overall a pretty sweet computer. I'm a Mac devotee now.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Don't bother getting iWork or Office. Just download OpenOffice.org for the new computer and save $$$. It's almost the same, and you can think of it as getting paid $200 to put up with the program. You can save in .doc format, or .xls format. It kept crashing when I wanted to save as .ppt, so I just saved stuff as .opt until I finished my presentation. You can import into PDF, and you can use adobe in lieu of Powerpoints in many cases, which is quite nice.
posted
Thanks fugu. That's more or less what I figured, and size is actually something of an issue with me. I have a roommate so I don't want to get some huge machine that makes loud noises when its hungry.
By the way, have I mentioned that you are teh awesome?
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: however, when you compare higher-end PCs and Macs point-by-point, the Mac is apt to be cheaper.
Not quite. This is true only at the beginning of each Mac product cycle, and for the base configuration of each released Mac. Apple charges an arm and a leg for hardware options that PC owners can do without voiding their warranties. Note that because laptops are generally non-tinkerable, Mac laptops are competitively priced against similar PC laptops for slightly longer in the product cycle.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I think the Power Macs are right now a little more expensive, with the possible exception of the highest end model (which was briefly an apple exclusive configuration, so might not have equalized completely).
I should note that while it is the beginning of its product cycle, the iMac is beating a Dell with an extra gig of Apple's overpriced RAM and an HD upgrade, vs Dell's default 2 gig (on the closest model I found).
I think the Macbook Pro is probably a bit overpriced at the moment, but this is made up for by the Macbook being a bit of a steal.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Not quite. This is true only at the beginning of each Mac product cycle, and for the base configuration of each released Mac. Apple charges an arm and a leg for hardware options that PC owners can do without voiding their warranties. Note that because laptops are generally non-tinkerable, Mac laptops are competitively priced against similar PC laptops for slightly longer in the product cycle.
Hmm. Interesting, I didn't know that.
At the same time, I'd factor longetivity into price as well. Like I said, my boy's Mac is still going strong after 7 years, while my Gateway crashed and burned 3.5 years after I bought it (six months after the extended warranty expired). Literally burned - the fan quit and hard drive burned itself out.
However, that's one piece of anecdotal evidence, I don't know how Macs versus PCs settle out over long-term comparions. anyone have any insight?
Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2007
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A mac that lasts will at least tend to have a higher resale value, though I think both effects are lessening with the stronger upgrade cycle the x86 shift has created.
I don't think they're lasting any longer than a PC of comparable quality. Of course, most PCs of comparable quality are not what people buy when they think a Mac is too expensive, they buy a cheapo PC.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ignore Blayne. Have you read any of his computer related posts? He's the last person who should be dishing out this kind of advice!
A purely personal thing that should be factored in is user experience. If you enjoy the Mac experience, you'll never desire to use Windows again.
Not everyone does enjoy OS X. I find this inexplicable, but no amount of point-by-point comparisons devalues my subjective workflow preference.
That said - when you get it, install Quicksilver first and foremost.
Edit to add - I use only 1GB on my MacBook, but have 2GB in my Fiancée's iMac and 2.5GB in my G5. The 1GB is passable, running Photoshop CS3, Firefox, Mail and Coda - but only just. I'll be putting in another gig shortly.
Posts: 2245 | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have a 3-year-old Powerbook G4 that's still going strong. After growing up on PCs, I'm in love (though there are a few quirks that annoy me).
As far as video editing goes, I've done a bit of editing on iMovie 4.0.1. It has a shallow learning curve and allows you to perform most basic editing functions along with some fun stuff. I don't know how much has changed for recent versions.
I just bought a used version of Final Cut Express HD. It looks very nice and powerful. And complicated. I have no idea how to use it, yet. If you do decide to buy it, I'd check ebay, or something similary, first. I managed to get my copy for $80.
quote:If you enjoy the Mac experience, you'll never desire to use Windows again.
Please don't be afraid of this. Not everyone who uses a Mac is a weird, turtleneck-wearing pod person.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Take the Mac that you want to buy, list every individual part, now goto www.canadacomputers.com and compare part by part what you wish to get.
And actually as it turns out I know omeone who tried to buy a Mac for somthing close to 700$ that the equivilent PC would have with the exact same parts costed only 300$
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You're the one making the (very amusing) assertions, Blayne, you do it. Take ten minutes time out from playing video games and total up those parts costs, and post the results on hatrack. Try systematically thinking about these things instead of looking at price totals without examining details and going "OMGEXPENSIVE!!1!one"
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Blayne Bradley
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my friends had already done so. the PC is generally cheaper then the Mac with equivalent parts.
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Then post your friend's comparison. I think that if there is a difference, it is generally less than 10%, and that sometimes it falls in the mac's favor, and I can provide evidence for my view. Provide some evidence for yours, rather than secondhand bravado.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: Don't bother getting iWork or Office. Just download OpenOffice.org for the new computer and save $$$. It's almost the same, and you can think of it as getting paid $200 to put up with the program. You can save in .doc format, or .xls format. It kept crashing when I wanted to save as .ppt, so I just saved stuff as .opt until I finished my presentation. You can import into PDF, and you can use adobe in lieu of Powerpoints in many cases, which is quite nice.
Edit (grammar)
One note about OpenOffice: it's amazing for being free, but is not up to part with the MS Office Suite, especially Calc vs Excel. OpenOffice is also a lot less intuitive to use, but that's about what I'd expect from open source software.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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for 1300$ the Mac's only advantage in this exchange is a video card and a absurdly expensive screen, while for the PC for a small fee future at least will give you an X850XT or better according to the clerk I talk to.
And the Mac has a built in webcam
and for slightly more you can get a massively better computer:
posted
A good 20" widescreen monitor costs several hundred dollars. One of the quality of the Apple screen will run at least $300 US (Apple's monitors are on par with Dell's ultrasharps, and the 20 inch widescreen ultrasharp costs $400 US. I'm assuming someone could find an off-brand of comparable quality for $100 less).
And no, a nice Acer 20" screen is not around $100, and a nice Acer screen is not in the ballpark of the quality of monitor we're talking about. Good monitors are more expensive.
That brings the great difference down to $200 or less, Canadian. As you've noticed, the graphics card in the PC is pretty worthless, so add at least $50 to bump that up. Down to $150.
That isn't the same processor, its a substantially worse one with only 2MB of cache vs 4MB of cache. Not all Core 2 Duos are created equal. Not sure how much that difference is worth . . . lets see, oh wow, its worth a lot. Check out the front page of newegg. The e4400 in the HP costs 126USD, while the lowest 2 Ghz with a 4MB cache, the T7300 (its a mobile processor, which I think is what's in the iMac) is 250USD. There's another 124USD difference. We can be generous and assume you got the E6300 instead; only 1.86Ghz, but it does have a 4MB cache, and its only 50USD more than the e4400.
And the PC is much larger, and it doesn't come with a free iPod (as the mac will for students right now, at least in the US). Heck, just the iPod nano is the entire $150 difference remaining, though that is a special offer. Do we want to bring up the known quality problems of low-end HP computers? Which reminds me, the mac has a better warranty.
Plus, you've already noted a few other differences. Less than 10% by far, with better parts across the board, and smaller, and a better warranty (which is worth 10% right there).
And the second computer you linked is not much better. The Gateway brand speaks handily to the overall quality. The processor is probably a little worse than the ones in the iMac, and the RAM and video card are easily matched (take a look one model up). If we do take a look one model up, then the processor is substantially superior to the one in the Gateway (2.4 Ghz Core 2 Duo with a 4MB cache will take a X2 6000+ any day). Then we still have the monitor and other minor parts.
This isn't even taking into account the slightly greater price differential for the Mac compared to PC parts, going from the US to Canada.
Now try comparing the computer we're recommending, the lower end version of the 24" widescreen. And no waving your hand with the monitor or other stuff.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Actually, I can find a Samsung 20" Widescreen of higher quality (compared to the 400 dollar Dell UltraSharp you mentions; 2ms response time vs. 16ms response time, with the same contrast ratio and color depth) Right here for 250 dollars. Dell's good monitors are highly over-priced, cause that's where they make their money, in Add-ons, just like Apple, who charges an average of 100% markup or more on every upgrade option they offer.
At any rate, Toms Hardware wrote a pretty good article examining the current iMac offerings. Here's the article.
You really can't beat the quality for price and size on the Mac mini's, I'll give them that. But you also have to figure in the 100 dollars additional for a Mac branded mouse and keyboard (neither of which is anything special, or even remotely worth 100 dollars) plus the cost of the monitor if you don't have one. The iMac isn't really anything special to me, aside from its design, which I'll readily admit is pretty impressive. However, I do not like the fact that you are stuck with ATI video on them, but my personal preference is nVidia. I've had several bad experiences with ATI cards. And of course, your own preference would depend on what you're doing with the computer. However, it's the MacPros that are just...well...outrageously over-priced, and that article I linked to explains how.
Let's also not forget that if you plan on using any Windows exclusive software, you'll have to add on the cost of a Windows license to the price of the Mac. That's about 100-150 dollars at a minimum.
With all that said, if you are going to be doing nothing but video editing, word processing, and web browsing, and you really want a Mac, get one. If you just want to be hip and act like you're better than everyone around you (I had to put my anti-fanboy jab in there...cause that's what I do) then definitely get a Mac.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Just tossing this out there, but you don't need a Mac branded keyboard and mouse for the Mini. A friend is running his Mini using a regular Windows keyboard and a Logitech mouse, both of which work great. The Windows key even automatically remaps to the Apple key, if I'm remembering correctly.
Posts: 753 | Registered: Mar 2001
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Lime: Yeah, the windows key automatically maps to the apple key, and if you prefer them the other way there's a checkbox to switch the behaviors of the windows and alt keys.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Lime: Just tossing this out there, but you don't need a Mac branded keyboard and mouse for the Mini. A friend is running his Mini using a regular Windows keyboard and a Logitech mouse, both of which work great. The Windows key even automatically remaps to the Apple key, if I'm remembering correctly.
You don't EVER need a mac branded mouse. My Microsoft mouse works just fine on my laptop, scroll, right click and all.
Not that I use it.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Blayne - the one thing you're forgetting in all of this is something I mentioned earlier.
User. Experience.
My computing quality of life is (subjectively) far better on a Mac. You couldn't pay me enough to use Windows on a daily basis.
Other people's mileage may vary.
That said, I also believe I get good value for money (objectively) for my hardware/OS.
I buy all my machines on clearance, either new or refurbished through the Apple clearance channels - usually machines that are being EOL'd but are still up there in terms of speed/features. They also usually come with 3 years of Apple Care as well, which is a good deal.
I don't buy Apple monitors, RAM, mice, harddrives, firewire devices - anything really. I have Dell monitor and some no-name 2nd monitor on my main machine, a logitech mouse, icebox firewire, non-brand RAM and extra drives. I just buy the box.
Back on the subjective side of things, I also buy piece of mind.
The OS I'm running now is the latest OS X version. However it started it's life back in the days of 10.1 on a single processor G4 in 2002. In that time I've cloned the drive and upgraded machines around 4 or 5 times. I'm on the same Mail.app database, same bookmarks db, same everything as back then. I upgrade the OS legally when a new one comes out and the same with all my apps.
I periodically clear out old preferences that linger from apps I no longer use. I back up my working files regularly. Every three months or so I reboot the machine onto an external drive, run some drive repair tools and optimisation stuff then boot back. Most of the time that'll be the only reboot the machine sees in that period, unless there's a major software update that requires a restart.
I have literally zero OS related problems. I just work. Everything just works exactly as I expect it to, every frackin time.
Even when I worked in Windows tech support, before I ever became a Mac user, that was never the case.
But as I said, that's my anecdotal, purely subjective experience. You, or anyone else, may love and glory in the use of Windows and have zero downtime all the days of your life. I have nothing but happiness for you that you're so happy and wouldn't want you to switch for all the world.
posted
well as I like to say go wit teh flow, basically go with what your most experienced with. Macs to me are absurdly expensive compared to what I could build myself and through salvaging whatever parts are leftover from my older desktop. And since i have long standing experience with windows and with the limited experienced with a friends Mac laptop and a Mac emu for my desktop at varying times and found that most games crashed and burned with with just an interface mod that unless I had just a dedicated Mac for just video editing, graphics design etc I will always go with a PC.
If your 100% used to a Mac then stick with the Mac.
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OK, I've now got it figured out - so you're saying that because you managed to induce a crash by modding a game, playing on an unsupported emulator on an architecture the OS wasn't designed for, that you've basically written off the platform?
Mmmmm.
But seriously, sure - the state of games on the Mac sucks. Then again, I haven't played games on my work machines for the better part of a decade. After 10 hours suck behind the keyboard, gaming for me needs to be kinda couch-bound.
And given the trouble I've seen you get into trying to get games to even work on your botched-together rigs, I'm not sure I could be bothered anyway.
Posts: 2245 | Registered: Nov 1998
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The state of games will improve somewhat. A few of the major game makers have committed to producing Mac versions of their games for simultaneous release, and porting significant parts of their back catalogs.
But of course, if you want to run a game on a mac (that the vid card can handle), just boot into windows.
And there are no good mac emulators out there.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I played a bit of WoW on my Mac - but just got antsy that I was spending my free time in front of the computer as well...
Posts: 2245 | Registered: Nov 1998
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My experience is the exact opposite of yours, Troubadour. Every Mac I've ever used has been slow, buggy, and annoying as hell to navigate. But then, my brain and hand muscles are used to navigating through Windows. What's really funny is that right now the only software I have problems with on my computer is Quicktime, which likes to cause a Firefox crash every time I open an MPEG. Oh, it also crashes whenever you exit out of it...which is hilarious. Most of the Macs I've used haven't "just worked"...It's been the Windows computers that have "just worked." But then, I've been using them long enough that I know how to keep them working without any problems. All of that coupled with the fact that I seriously can't stand Apple's marketing techniques (rash generalities and half (and often less than half) truths in advertisements, calling their technicians "Geniuses"...yeah, that's not pretentious at all) and lots of other problems (which I've mentioned) just push me to hate the things more than like them. And I work for a company that has more Macs than PCs in the office. Of course, that leads me to my other gripes about OS X Server, which offers a Software RAID 1 that fails every 4 months and causes some of the weirdest problems imaginable when it does...among other things (Ah yes, let's charge 400 dollars for a server package that uses freaking SAMBA for Windows networking compatibility...)
Okay. I'm going to shut up now...but suffice it to say, my experience with Apple has been much less than satisfactory...And if that damned Apple software update window pops up in the middle of one of my games ONE MORE TIME!!!
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