quote:There is also a special degradation that goes along with knowing that the supposed authorities are going to blithely ignore three nooses being hung from a tree.
They didn't ignore it. The principal wanted to expel the kids responsible. He was overruled. He shouldn't have been, they should have been expelled, but it was not ignored.
quote:Belle the kid was part of a group who'd previously attacked one of the black kids with beer bottles according to some reports. He struck first from what I've read (not in that fight but in a previous one).
Where is that information? I haven't seen it, though I've heard it mentioned. I'm not denying the kid was involved, and I hate sounding like I'm defending a racist, but where is the credible accounting of the beating with beer bottles? I've heard beer bottles, I've heard a gun was pulled, I've heard lots of things - so many different accounts all of them likely cannot be true.
My point, my only point, is that the media is painting this inaccurately, so we need to make sure we have FACTS not hysterical exaggerated accounts before we make judgments.
I am 100% against any type of racial violence - regardless of the direction of the violence. If he attacked a black kid with a beer bottle or pulled a gun on them, then yes he should have been punished and prosecuted. But nothing excuses what those six kids did to him.
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[Edit: Replying to Lyr] See, the poor I'm used to go the other way with the cause and effect. They're poor because they spend all their time trying to rip other people off instead of working.
It's interesting to hear about places that work differently. I'm glad the city's getting revamped.
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quote:They didn't ignore it. The principal wanted to expel the kids responsible. He was overruled. He shouldn't have been, they should have been expelled, but it was not ignored.
I'm not sure that expelling the kids would have been the appropriate course. It doesn't fix the problem, it just moves it around in the appearance of justice. The principal wasn't the authority in this case, the authority was the overruling school board.
quote:Poverty breeds violence. You eliminate the poverty, you go a long way towards getting rid of the violence.
This is complicated. I think that strength of character is the way to go to eliminate violence. A little bit of money just makes it the case that one doesn't have to showcase strength of character. I'll be the first to say that racism goes two ways because I think that under those suburban lawns, white Americans, and their imitators, are one hot meal away from murder. Again, money won't solve the problem, it'll mask it, possibly offering the appearance, and maybe even the material rewards, of success.
Call it realpolitik, strategy, or healthy competition, but white people are a scary, untrustworthy bunch. After the WTC bombing, Card the "moderate" was ready lead a Sherman-style march up the cradle of civilization, more day-to-day examples are these white juries doling out convictions and going to work the next day without a care. The juries are all white because whites are more likely to sit in the jury box and follow letter of the law without compunction.
I take issue with the ridiculous and untoward facets of black culture, but it seems to me that its more tasteless aspects are the result of arising in contrast to deeply hypocritical passive/aggressive whites in denial.
There is a section in Henry Adams' book Democracy: An American Novel, where Senator Radcliffe explains "If virtue won't answer our purpose, then we must use vice, or our opponents will put us out of office." That sentiment showcases everything wrong white American public life.
quote:its more tasteless aspects are the result of arising in contrast to deeply hypocritical passive/aggressive whites in denial.
I take issue with never, ever taking responsibility for one's own crappy actions. Is anything EVER not white people's fault/responsibility?
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quote:The juries are all white because whites are more likely to sit in the jury box and follow letter of the law without compunction.
I have never seen an all-white jury in my life.
Mind you, I know there are lots of all-white juries. Just as there are lots of all-black juries. But your statement that all (even taken as hyperbole to mean many or most) is manifestly wrong.
Most convictions by juries I've seen are not for behavior many people think should be lawful (such as drug use or peaceful drug distribution),* but for crimes that almost everyone recognizes as mala in se - that is, wrong in themselves: Assault, robbery, larceny (and the poor are stolen from far more often than the rich), murder, rape, arson, etc.
Moreover, most jury convictions are not moral wrongs nor are they deserving of remorse.
*In my experience, the vast majority of drug convictions are not before juries. They are pleas (most often) or bench trials.
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quote:Is anything EVER not white people's fault/responsibility?
It's one of the burdens of being a moneyed majority in a majority-ruled capitalist democracy. The flip-side is that you get to decide, execute, and interpret the laws and ethical principles. Whatever you say goes. You want Bush as President, Bush is President. You want Michael Vick to go to jail, Michael Vick is going to jail. We DID have our way with OJ, though. You all set the rules and it's up to everyone else in the US to decide whether they want to play and perish.
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That's total baloney. Every word of it. I'll focus on the larger theme.
Being poor does not strip one of one's humanity. Your assumption that being black means one is responsible for nothing (and can therefore deserve neither credit nor blame) is more condescending, crippling and hateful than anything I've ever heard. You just infantalized a tenth of the population.
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quote:The flip-side is that you get to decide, execute, and interpret the laws and ethical principles.
I do? Cool. People who cross against the light now have to either pay a $200 fine or wash and wax my car.
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quote:Being poor does not strip one of one's humanity.
I'm pretty sure I said that opposite. But if we are going to speak in these terms, having money doesn't absolve you of your humanity.
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When you deny all responsiblity for everything, including your own actions, you deny your own adulthood and humanity. It's deliberately crippling yourself.
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Sorry but, are you REALLY that proud of getting OJ off? Of all the black people I work with, I can't name a single one who doesn't think the guy is a joke and a useless human being.
quote:Originally Posted by Irami: This is complicated. I think that strength of character is the way to go to eliminate violence. A little bit of money just makes it the case that one doesn't have to showcase strength of character. I'll be the first to say that racism goes two ways because I think that under those suburban lawns, white Americans, and their imitators, are one hot meal away from murder. Again, money won't solve the problem, it'll mask it, possibly offering the appearance, and maybe even the material rewards, of success.
Call it realpolitik, strategy, or healthy competition, but white people are a scary, untrustworthy bunch. After the WTC bombing, Card the "moderate" was ready lead a Sherman-style march up the cradle of civilization, a more day-to-day examples are these white juries doling out convictions and going to work the next day without a care. The juries are all white because whites are more likely to sit in the jury box and follow letter of the law without compunction.
First of all, I find white people no more scary than black. A quick view of black history, and that's African as well as African American shows some pretty wretched acts of inhumanity. And black culture in America doesn't do a whole lot for itself when apparently it's visible super stars are people like OJ and Michael Vick, or Whoopie Goldberg, who said Michael Vick can't be blamed because he's from the deep south and down there they just smash dog's heads into the ground like its no big deal. Or any of a couple dozen rappers and hip hop artists who glorify thug lifestyles and the mistreatment of women. And I'm SURE that ALL of that is the fault of the white man, or at least you'll find a way to claim it so, but when do you own up to that "strength of character" deficiency?
And I'm not just talking about throwing money at the problem. I don't quite get what you're advocating, is it black people in the inner city pulling themselves up by their bootstraps? Sorry to say that for every one that wants to, there certainly seems to be three more that'll knock that first guy down and try to take what he has. I think if the inner cities were going to solve their own problems, they would have done it some time in the last 30 or 40 years, instead of steadily sliding down the drain.
And I'm not just talking about black vs. white or inner city vs suburb, I'm talking fairness and standardization. A student in the inner city deserves the same quality of education that a student in the suburbs gets. If it requires more money to do that, then it's fair, it's not trying to pay the situation off, as I think you're trying to pin it. Jobs have left the inner city leaving many unemployed. Money is required to invest in the city so businesses can start up and jobs can be created. Again, you aren't buying them off, you're giving them the chance to help themselves.
Buying them off, which is what I think you THINK I mean, would be something like sending them all paycheck every month to get them to shut u. I'm talking about investment and equality. I don't know what you could possibly find fault with in that.
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quote: The Rev. Jesse Jackson criticized Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Tuesday over his reaction to the arrest of six black juveniles in Jena, Louisiana, on murder charges, accusing the Illinois senator of "acting like he's white," according to a South Carolina newspaper.
Should there be more outrage about Jackson's comment?
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Jesse Jackson is a joke, if this was his first offense I'd be more outraged. Though his comment is one that is a core issue standing in the way of African Americans rising up as a group.
Obama has said many times that whenever he or another African American student tried to do well in school they were always accused of, "Acting white." It's a very unfortunate and terrible situation that exists today. As long as African Americans are told, "Academics, business, etc are a White man's world, go play sports." There is ALWAYS going to be a problem.
Do people with more money then they need have a responsibility to help those less fortunate, I believe they do. But you cannot help somebody who does not want to help themselves.
As much as it seems ridiculous to cite it, I love Samuel L. Jackson's (Zeus) Q/A session with the two little kids near the beginning of Die Hard With a Vengeance.
"Zeus: Now, where you goin'? Dexter: School. Zeus: Why? Raymond: To get educated. Zeus: *Why*? Dexter: So we can go to college. Zeus: And why is that important? Dexter: To get es-pect. Zeus: RE-spect. Now, who's the bad guys? Dexter: Guys who sell drugs. Raymond: Guys who have guns. Zeus: And who's the good guys? Dexter: We're the good guys. Zeus: Who's gonna help you? Raymond: Nobody. Zeus: *So who's gonna help you*? Dexter: We're gonna help ourselves. Zeus: And who do we not want to help us? Dexter, Raymond: White people. Zeus: That's right. Now get on outta here. Go to school. "
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quote: The Rev. Jesse Jackson criticized Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Tuesday over his reaction to the arrest of six black juveniles in Jena, Louisiana, on murder charges, accusing the Illinois senator of "acting like he's white," according to a South Carolina newspaper.
Should there be more outrage about Jackson's comment?
quote:Sorry but, are you REALLY that proud of getting OJ off?
Not especially. I think he is worthless.
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As to Obama, I do think that his agenda is unduly influenced by liberal whites.
quote:Obama has said many times that whenever he or another African American student tried to do well in school they were always accused of, "Acting white." It's a very unfortunate and terrible situation that exists today. As long as African Americans are told, "Academics, business, etc are a White man's world, go play sports." There is ALWAYS going to be a problem.
This takes the form of "I had agreed to go speak at a prison, but my handler says that I should draft another speech on Iraq instead." It has nothing to do with the quality of his education and everything to do with the issues he addresses. There was an enormous culture of fear in Obama's office, and it was geared toward making sure that he was not too offensive to whites. The rationale is that not only is he black, people were going to see him as inexperienced. This was a year ago, before the campaign, and from what I've seen, it's gotten worse instead of better. Nobody wanted to support Obama more than I did, and I'll still vote for him in the general, if he makes it that far, but now I'm a Kucinich guy. In my book, if you are a black politician and you don't have a pointed critique concerning education and the criminal justice system, I'd just as soon vote for the white guy.
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quote: Zeus: Now, where you goin'? Dexter: School. Zeus: Why? Raymond: To get educated. Zeus: *Why*? Dexter: So we can go to college. Zeus: And why is that important? Dexter: To get Respect.
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I just saw the CNN coverage of the protests. I'm glad they were all peaceful. I'm especially proud of the police who didn't aggrevate the situation. I think everyone involved handled themselves like rational adults. Hooray for humanity!
The down side is that most of the signs wanted to free the Jena 6. I wish they'd called for the first three to be charged with something. (There's got to be a statute for hanging nooses out of the "white tree" to scare a black student, right?) People don't get to beat other people up when the system doesn't work. We don't have a society then, we just have anarchy.
Personally, if they really wanted to accomplish something, I think they should have held a rally looking for locals to replace the school board in the next election. They're the ones who failed in their moral duty. They should be the ones to go down.
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Jeez, Jackson should be ashamed of himself. That's almost as bad as the comments Debra Dickerson made about Obama, when she was trying to say that he isn't really African American because only descendants of West African slaves are really true African Americans, and that Obama is actually African African American, and he's not really a "brotha" he's more like an "adopted brotha."
What the hell is that anyway? Obama can't win. Not only is he apparently acting white, but he has to act black too! Meanwhile his real life is what, somewhere in the grey?
I'd ask at what point this type of discussion becomes useless, but frankly I think it's useless before it even starts.
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The FBI did investigate the noose incident and determined that, while not good, it did not meet the requirements for a hate crime. I have been annoyed with this case because I feel like people are saying that these students shouldn't be punished for their crime because some one else wasn't punished properly. The white kids probably should have received a harsher penalty (I don't think I have enough information to make a judgement on that), but that doesn't make what the black kids did ok.
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scholar, that is how I feel about this case as well. Facebook groups such as "Free the Jena 6" bother me because it seems that people are saying that the kids aren't responsible at all for what they did.
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Irami: I personally go to school to better myself and in that way respect myself as an intelligent human being capable of great things.
The times I don't respect myself are the times I don't do what I know I should do.
But hey what's your disagreement with going to school to get respect? Honestly asking.
I can respect that for you if a black candidate does not put enough emphasis on the education system and the justice system you will vote for a white guy who does. That's certainly a stance I can understand if not endorse.
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Of course the kids are responsible for what they did, the problem is judging the severity of what they did. Assault is tricky. Fights between high schoolers happen every day, and since there are so many mitigated and sensitive factors, jail time, any jail time, seems like a blunt instrument that may not address the problem. There should be suspensions, I think, but more importantly, there needs to be dialogue, preferably involving the entire school and many different small group meetings involving trained counselors everyday for a few weeks, segregated groups and integrated groups. I imagine that the white parents just want to suspend or jail the guilty parties, white and black, and put the whole thing behind them, but this is a deep issue at a school no less, and unless its dealt with thoughtfully and not necessarily with blanket penalties, it will all be for nothing.
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If the everyone thinks the white kids who hung the nooses should be expelled, I think they'd all agree that the six who participated in the beating should also be expelled. If you should get expelled for threatening to hurt someone, you should certainly be expelled for actually hurting them. Many people on the news have been making light of the injuries, but reading what the actual damage was, it sounded pretty damned severe to me. From what I understand, even after the kid was beaten senseless, he was continually kicked and stomped in the face and head.
And I think that warrants some sort of criminal penalty, even if at worse all they get is community service, it shouldn't be overlooked. Someone else's crimes don't excuse yours. If we're settling for the "he started it" defense in this whole debacle, then I despair for the entire justice system, to say nothing of race relations.
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I wouldn't expel anyone, a few days suspensions all around, but then back to figuring out together why all of this happened in the first place.
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I want to point out how often the assumption that the south is the most racist part of the country was made in this thread. I think that's completely false. Please re-think that assumption.
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No it's not; if you take out the word 'white' then it's not racist anymore. Irami can't have that -- the black people would kick him out of the clubhouse.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I want to point out how often the assumption that the south is the most racist part of the country was made in this thread. I think that's completely false...
Note, I'm Canadian and have not done research into modern racism in the United States.
However, since the assumption is "completely false", I am curious as to what part of the country IS most racist and how you came to that conclusion.
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There are different expressions of racism. In Michigan, race relations doesn't make the national news but the black people live south of 8 mile and the white people live north of 8 mile and there is NO MIXING. Anything that might lead to mixing is resisted strenuously on both sides.
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You could be asking the same types of questions of those who expressed the opinions about the south, too.
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Sure, consider my questions extended accordingly to the rest of the group.
Its just that my interest was aroused by Tatiana's assertion, and I figured it might be worth exploring, wherever it goes.
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I think the reason people think we're more racist in the South is that there are MORE black people here, and more mixing. As Javert pointed out, in many areas of the North and West, the people stick to their own neighborhoods. We lived in Indiana for awhile and (after growing up in NC), I was struck by how few black people I saw. The black people they did have acted like white folks because they had assimilated the culture. My husband is from Arizona, and he often claims I'm being racist when I point out that the black culture as a whole doesn't value education, or that they raise their children to value "toughness" over empathy or that they value sneakiness over hard work. I'm for sure not saying every black person is like that, and as I pointed out, I would say most of the people in my neighborhood are not like that, but growing up here, watching how they treat their children, a picture develops about their culture (not the individuals), that people growing up in mostly-white regions never see. They tend to think the only difference is skin color, but people from other cultures are raised differently.
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I wonder if the noose kids are going to get an additional retroactive punishment now. Surely a suspension isn't enough; they should each have to write a long report on something like "The White Male in American History" (as some students at my college had to after a racist stunt) to prove they're sorry.
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I read (so take it with a grain of salt) that the largest chapter of the KKK is in Arizona. At the press clipping service I work at one of the things we look for in articles is white supremicist groups. There is a client that ONLY wants news of such groups in relation to Arizona. But that does not tell us much.
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quote:They tend to think the only difference is skin color, but people from other cultures are raised differently.
If I'm reading you correctly, GG, you're saying that the reason the South seems more racist is that the races are around each other more, and thus have more informed opinions of each other...?
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I think the south seems more racist because they're the ones who lost their minds when blacks expected things like equal rights. But I think it's telling that blacks demanded them here. In the south, they knew enough whites that it was important to be treated like real people.
White southerners may have been raised with a patronizing attitude towards blacks historically, but they also had a sense of obligation towards them. I think southern attitudes towards blacks were much more complicated than modern folks give them credit for being. It's easier to label people as cruel and evil than to actually find out why their reaction seemed reasonable to them at the time. What's the first rule of writing? Everyone thinks he or she is the hero of the story. Everyone thinks their actions are right or can justify them when they know they're wrong.
When I watched the PBS documentary narrated by Morgan Freeman, it was strongly implied that systematic, legal prejudice against blacks was stirred up by wealthy landowners in the 1800s to keep the slaves and indentured servents from banding together for working reforms. By making both elements of the plantation's working class ememies, the landowners kept their profit margin where they wanted it. Somehow I wonder if modern prejudice doesn't continue that purpose in some way. I'm not sure what the economic benefit would be, but I'd bet anything that if there was one for all races getting along, folks with money would be trying a lot harder to get eveyone to be color blind friends.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by pH: I will say that I found racism much more prevalent in Chicago, and I grew up in Florida and have lived in Louisiana for four years.
-pH [/QUOTE
Having grown up in Chicago, I take issue with that statement. The thing with Chicago is that it is self segregated to an extent. The North Side is where all the white folk live, the South and West sides are where all the Black and Hispanic folk live. Historically, the rich white folk lived on the South side, and then there was the great white flight when the Black folk moved to Chicago from the Southern states.
I am by no means stating that there is no racism in Chicago, 'cause there certainly is as there is, unfortunately, everywhere in this country.
I am white and attended a public grammar school that was very very mixed. We had people from all over the world in that school. And when I went to high school, I went to a magnet school on the Near West Side. The school was 80% African American. I never had trouble with racism. There were no separate proms, and no specific 'white' or 'black' areas. I have never known anyone to be excluded or denigraded simply because of their race.
Also, my mom's side of the family is from Mississippi, where I definitely experienced more racism than I ever did in Chicago. However, I find it annoying that people assume that if you're from the south, or have family in the south, that you are racist. That's absurd. I don't think there is anywhere in this country where racism is completely dead. And that is a sad state of affairs.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Anything more concrete/quantitative than one anecdote?
Also, where do the Latinos and Asians live in Michigan?
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: There are different expressions of racism. In Michigan, race relations doesn't make the national news but the black people live south of 8 mile and the white people live north of 8 mile and there is NO MIXING. Anything that might lead to mixing is resisted strenuously on both sides.
Woah there sparky, NO mixing? 8 mile isn't a magic barrier. There are plenty of black people living north of 8 mile and plenty of white people living south of it, they are just a minority. And I question how much the 8 mile road barrier even matters anymore. The majority of those living south of 8 mile come north to work with white people during the day and then go home at night. I live at 11 mile, and I work at 16 mile, which is right in the middle of the richest part of the white suburbs, but my coworkers are an even mix of hispanic, black and white. So the idea that we're segregated with no mixing is absurd to me, and even though there is a sort of line in the sand, it's constantly being washed away as people move around much more freely now than they could a couple decades ago.
And really that's just Metro Detroit, it's not the whole state. There's a very large latino community in Grand Rapids, more on the north side. Detroit has MexicanTown, as well as a huge Chaldean (Arabic) community in Dearborn and elsewhere. There's no strict Asian community, they're mixed in everywhere.
Where in Michigan did or do you live JH?
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posted
The Rodney King incident and trial come to mind.
My personal experience from my visits around the western hemisphere is that the midwest is the most racist part of the country. A few quick anecdotes. My friend Jason told me that a child in the midwest said to his mother in the store "There's a black man!" and pointed to him, as though he'd never seen one. He said the southeastern US is the least racist part of the country in his experience. He's traveled all over for his job. My friend Josh said the same, and he lived in California for a long time, and also has traveled extensively in the rest of the country. When I was in Michigan, someone asked me if I liked the South and I said yes I loved it. He then asked, "aren't there an awful lot of black people down there?" and I blinked in shock. Two friends of a friend in Virginia harassed an interracial couple in the car next to us one night when we were driving in traffic. I was shocked and really horrified by that. Understand that nobody here would do that, make casual racist remarks to virtual strangers. Even the people who still believe it realize it's completely socially unacceptable to say it in polite company.
There are certainly racists here in the South, don't get me wrong. It's nothing to brag about that we're the least racist section of the country, considering how racist we still are. But the whole idea that racism is primarily a southern thing is completely false. It's much better here than elsewhere in the country, from everything I know.
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quote:Woah there sparky, NO mixing? 8 mile isn't a magic barrier.
Eminem agrees with you.
I think I started thinking of the south as more racist when, as a a child (maybe 10 or 11) I saw a news report on a controversy over displaying the Confederate flag. I don't even remember the exact nature of the controversy, but I do remember some people being really REALLY pissed off about it. We'd been learning about the civil war and I couldn't understand why someone would want to fly the flag of a bunch of racists and traitors.
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quote:Originally posted by Luet13: [QUOTE]Originally posted by pH: I will say that I found racism much more prevalent in Chicago, and I grew up in Florida and have lived in Louisiana for four years.
-pH [/QUOTE
Having grown up in Chicago, I take issue with that statement.
Then I hope you can understand how weary those of us in the South are of people in other parts of the country pointing the finger our way whenever racism is brought up.
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Just as a side note, I'm not sure people think of Florida when they think of the South. I don't.
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Not that I do not find this interesting (I do on an anecdotal level, although I find the black/white focus a little disorienting), but does anyone have anything more compelling such as statistics/quantitative information?
Although I do see that the largest (maybe) KKK chapter is in Arizona, which is an interesting nugget.
I kind of have an idea where I would start looking in Canada for such information (Statscan) but I'm not sure about the US equivalent.
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quote: South Florida is not "the South." Northern Florida most definitely is.
I guess Central Florida is just kind of southern. My piece was an even mix of rednecks, farmers, retirees, and doctors.
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