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Author Topic: I guess scaring a three year old is "fun" now.
Puffy Treat
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I went to check out that new seasonal Halloween-themed store Dollar Tree's put up. It was typical stuff. Costumes, makeup, display pieces.

Oh yes, and something called "Cannibal Meat Market". Set up like the cold meat shelf in a grocery store, it features fairly realistic severed arms and legs.

While viewing this display, a young couple with a tiny girl in tow came up. The girl, upon seeing it began to whimper and beg not come any closer.

Grinning, the couple dragged her right up to the case and made her touch one of the arms.

She screamed and cried, obviously terrified. She can't have been over three...and at that age, stuff obviously fake and cheesy to adults isn't quite so clear.

Giggling, the couple then dragged her over to a mechanical "mummy butler", laughing louder as the Mummy's movements also terrified the little girl.

I glanced around the store. Most of the other customers were smiling bemusedly, or getting as far away from the couple as they could. Personally, I was feeling a bit ill, and left.

I get the feeling I should have said something. I also get the feeling that it probably wouldn't have done any good. (No store crew members were in sight.)

Yes, it's all pretend...but some sorts of pretend little children aren't ready for yet. When I was three, Halloween was about smiling pumpkins, apple cider, and maybe a Disney special. It wasn't until a few years later that I was ready for "it's fun to be scared" stuff.

I feel sorry for that poor little girl. And I sure hope those weren't her parents.

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Synesthesia
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Aw. Poor little kid.
That's not funny at all...

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Wendybird
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Honestly to me that borders on child abuse. Terrifying a young child for your own amusement is soooo very wrong.
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Eaquae Legit
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[Mad]
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scholar
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While I am probably wrong, I am choosing to believe that the parents were trying to show the kid that there was nothing to be afraid of.
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Leonide
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given what Puffy told us of the situation, it doesn't sound that way at all.
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Puffy Treat
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To quote the adults:

"BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA! Look, she's SO SCARED!"

"Quick, show her this! HA-HA-HA!"

Seems more like thoughtless teasing than an object lesson on the difference between "real" and "make believe".

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scholar
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I know my interpretation doesn't fit the facts, but isn't the most likely interpretation a lot more depressing then mine? ;-)
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BlackBlade
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I really have a hard time drawing the line on these situations.

Growing up cockroaches terrified me and in Hong Kong we had alot of em. Their horrible color, shiny diseased look, the way they run across the floor, their size. Top that with the fact they can suddenly take to the air and fly into your face and I just hated the little buggers.

My dad thought it was stupid to have me grow up scared of the things and so every time we killed one he used to tease me by holding it close to my face for cheap squeals. Eventually he started making me take the tissue and throw the roach in the toilet. Finally he made me apprehend the roaches while living and dispose of them.

I'm glad he did it because my wife is terrified of roaches and I can see how obnoxious it is to have such an irrational fear.

My friend on the other hand had his parents sit him down and force him to watch Child's Play 1 and Child's Play 2. Since then he loves scary movies and nothing phases him.

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Puffy Treat
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What were your respective ages?

See, my main problem is that the little girl seemed only three or so...and it's asking a LOT to expect a child that age to have no fear of in-your-face, gory imagery.

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BlackBlade
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I was around 4-5 when my father started doing that. Probably 7 when I threw my first live roach in the toilet.

I believe my friend said he was about 8-10 when his parents sat him down that day.

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Lyrhawn
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I hate Halloween. It's a wretched day.
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MEC
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I learned to swim when I was ten when my father decided to teach me by throwing me into the center of the pool. As effective as this method is I defiantly don't think it's the right thing to do. You can hurt the child, and if these parents are forcing their child to do things she's scared to do, simply for amusement, I would imagine it could destroy the trust she has in her parents.
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DevilDreamt
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In a situation like that, I would have said something, not to the parents, but to the little girl. If they weren't willing to explain to her that it's not real, and there's nothing to be afraid of, someone should have tried. I know, little kids are often afraid of strangers, and she probably wouldn't have trusted you...

But I can see where talking to the parents most likely would have been a dead end as well.

"Don't tell me how to raise my kid!"

"But, you're doing such a bad job."

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katharina
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I imagine that one of the funnest parts of being a parent must be the judgment from childless strangers when they see situations out of context.
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Synesthesia
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It depends...
Sometimes stuff like that just seems cruel. Like if a kid is afraid of spiders pouring them all over his hand? No way, that's just wrong. As if the parent doesn't have fears of their own. No way I'd want someone to try to get me over my uneasiness with M word things by sticking my hand into a barrow of them!!!!!!!! Or get rid of my fear of wasps by putting me in a room full of them!!!
Or trying to make me get over my fear of the NYC subway system by making me stand on the edge of the platform. NO WAY!
If some stuff is done right in a gentle way, maybe it can help, or maybe it's just not worth it to get rid of a person's fear if doing something like this will be seen as cruel by the person.

I must say it can't be a good idea to let young kids watch horror movies. Sometimes these things can work, other times it can just desensitize a kid to violence and the last thing you need is more desensitized kids.

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Christine
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Trying to get someone to not be scared of something by plunging them in the middle of it is called immersion. It can work well, but sometimes it backfires and frankly with a small child like that, not being comforted but laughed at, I'm inclined to think it would scar her for life. You want her to see that the thing she is afraid of is not hurting her but in that case it WAS hurting her so that's not going to work, is it? It was hurting her by frightening her and making her caregivers laugh at her fear.

Personally, I'm more partial to systematic desensitization, where you gradually make a person (child or adult -- works great with phobias) feel comfortable with a mild version of what they are afraid of. Once they feel comfortable with the small thing, you step it up. So, if someone's scared of dogs, you might start out with a picture of a dog in the room, then a soundtrack of dogs barking...then you would bring in a small, calm, well trained dog, etc.

I'm not sure how that would work with severed arms. Personally, I would be more inclined to just wait until my child was old enough to understand that they were fake. She shouldn't be too far away from that ability to understand.

In short, I have to agree that I think this was a horrible example of parenting. Horrible enough to say something? Probably not.

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MattP
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quote:
I'm not sure how that would work with severed arms.
I guess you'd start at a fingernail clipping and work up from there. Also, it may be more effective to have the child do the severing.
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
I'm not sure how that would work with severed arms.
I guess you'd start at a fingernail clipping and work up from there. Also, it may be more effective to have the child do the severing.
There's a picture!

I guess what I really don't get is...assuming that what these parents did would work (which it won't), why is it so important that a 3-year-old be comfortable around severed limbs? I'm not sure I want to see what's in their cellar...

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Christine
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Oops.
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Qaz
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I think it's a power thing, and I don't think it's even that rare.
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Scott R
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Scaring a three-year old IS fun, up to a certain point.

But you have to know when to stop. And that point is entirely defined by the child-- so you have to know your child.

The other day, I was playing a scare-me game with Inkling (age 2) and Litebrite (age 4). Two players lay down on the floor in the living room, in front of the couch. The other player creeps up on them, and screams madly so that they get scared. It was my turn, and I waited in the hall a while until Litebrite started calling my name. Then I slowly, quietly began to creep up, until she finally said, before I could jump out, "Daddy! Don't scare me for real!"

And so I called from the hallway to let her know that everything was all right, and that I wouldn't scare her.

I admit to getting a perverse enjoyment out of hiding behind corners in darkened rooms and surprising the older kids. (LiteBrite has utterly NO sense of humor when I do this, though...)

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theCrowsWife
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My two-year-old (almost three) loves it when I jump out and startle her. It sends her into a lengthy fit of giggles and she begs me to do it again.

Not that this in any way compares to the parents in the store. Scott is so right that the child should be the one to decide when things have gone far enough.

--Mel

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Christine
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I think there's a pretty big difference between a "scare me" game or a jump from around the corner and dragging your terrified, whimpering child into the middle of her nightmare, laughing when she screams, and then continuing to torment her with more displays of horror.

Like Scott says, you have to know your kids. You also have to be able to empathize even a little tiny bit.

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maui babe
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quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
I learned to swim when I was ten when my father decided to teach me by throwing me into the center of the pool. As effective as this method is I defiantly don't think it's the right thing to do. You can hurt the child, and if these parents are forcing their child to do things she's scared to do, simply for amusement, I would imagine it could destroy the trust she has in her parents.

When I was six years old, my family visited my aunt and uncle in SoCal and they had a pool on their property. I was playing in the shallow end when my uncle came up behind me, picked me up and carried me to the deep end and threw me in (to "cure" me of my fear of deeper water). I didn't know my mother was there to catch me and I was terrified. The adults (and probably my older siblings) thought it was great fun and laughed about how I screamed. I couldn't stop crying for a long time and after a while, my mother and my uncle both got mad and told me to stop being a baby.

I never really did learn to swim well. I'm still afraid of the water and I'm rather resentful of how my mother reacted to my fears that day (and later water related events). It's been nearly 40 years and I still remember it very clearly. It was abuse and if anyone had tried to "teach" one of my children that way... [Mad] well, no one ever did and that's a good thing.

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Javert Hugo
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Call me an optimist, but I'm guessing that the parents of the little girl might have a better idea of when is too far than a random stranger.
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Leonide
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
I imagine that one of the funnest parts of being a parent must be the judgment from childless strangers when they see situations out of context.

why'd you need to say this twice, kat?
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by maui babe:
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
I learned to swim when I was ten when my father decided to teach me by throwing me into the center of the pool. As effective as this method is I defiantly don't think it's the right thing to do. You can hurt the child, and if these parents are forcing their child to do things she's scared to do, simply for amusement, I would imagine it could destroy the trust she has in her parents.

When I was six years old, my family visited my aunt and uncle in SoCal and they had a pool on their property. I was playing in the shallow end when my uncle came up behind me, picked me up and carried me to the deep end and threw me in (to "cure" me of my fear of deeper water). I didn't know my mother was there to catch me and I was terrified. The adults (and probably my older siblings) thought it was great fun and laughed about how I screamed. I couldn't stop crying for a long time and after a while, my mother and my uncle both got mad and told me to stop being a baby.

I never really did learn to swim well. I'm still afraid of the water and I'm rather resentful of how my mother reacted to my fears that day (and later water related events). It's been nearly 40 years and I still remember it very clearly. It was abuse and if anyone had tried to "teach" one of my children that way... [Mad] well, no one ever did and that's a good thing.

That's so mean. That reminds me of how this guy tried to teach his child to stay away from water by pushing her into a lake.

quote:
Call me an optimist, but I'm guessing that the parents of the little girl might have a better idea of when is too far than a random stranger.
in some cases, yes, but considering how some folks can be when it comes to kids, no... It's definetly going too far when the kid is crying in fear.
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grammargoddess
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It sounds like she was really scared, though. I have a 5 yr old son who's not afraid of anything and looooves the Halloween displays, and a 3 year old who's scared of the automated Santas in Walmart. But the 3 year old really does like some of the spooky stuff, she just also likes to be in control. So she might act a little scared when we approach the Halloween aisle, but if we back away, she's begging to go back. But there's no way I'd keep thrusting scary stuff at her if she was crying.
Also, one time on a walk, we saw a family laughing as their little terrier growled, chased and snapped at their (probably 3 yr old) daughter while she ran and screamed/cried. Some people with sadistic bents find that sort of thing amusing, I guess.

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Enigmatic
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quote:
Originally posted by Javert Hugo:
Call me an optimist, but I'm guessing that the parents of the little girl might have a better idea of when is too far than a random stranger.

Why? Is every parent automatically a good parent just because they are a parent?

Puffy Treat's original post said that he didn't approach the parents or say anything about it, but it made him uncomfortable. I think that's a pretty fair response for what he described. I'd have been pretty uncomfortable witnessing that, too, but I don't think it crossed a line to where I had a responsibility to intervene. I also think that our society has established that there are certainly points at which an observer DOES get to decide that parents have gone "too far" in their treatment of their own child.

--Enigmatic

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Javert Hugo
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I do think more parents are good, on the whole, than bad. I also think that good parents occasionally make bad decisions.

More importantly, I don't think any parenting as a whole can be judged off of one incident. We've heard some examples of times when scaring kids IS appropriate and fun for them, and our information on whether or not this crossed the line is entirely dependent on a stranger's opinion from several yards away.

The judgment is a little breathtaking. Even in maui babe's story where she WAS scared by being put in physical danger (which doesn't apply to the kid in the store), I certainly don't see her wishing that as a result she wished her mother wasn't her mother.

Maybe it was that last line that annoyed me so. Besides, even if the entire event happened as reported (which I don't grant), do you really prefer that experience to happen in the company of people who WEREN'T her parents?

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Zalmoxis
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quote:
and our information on whether or not this crossed the line is entirely dependent on a stranger's opinion from several yards away.
Severed arms and legs. A three year old. I don't think the judgment is that hard to make.

Overall, your point is a good one. But in general I'd say that our major failing as parents (and I'm not immune to this) is not picking up the cues and trying to really understand where a child is in his moral/ethical/intellectual/spiritual/social/personality development.

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Scott R
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quote:
I'm guessing that the parents of the little girl might have a better idea of when is too far than a random stranger.
You'd normally be right, but this is ME that's making the judgment call.

I'm like...the God of parenting. I even have a certificate.

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ketchupqueen
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Emma likes being scared sometimes by some things-- she will start "screaming" and laughing. But it can quickly turn from "fun" to "too much".

As a parent, I can't imagine not knowing my own child's "too much" signs and being able to stop and comfort her when it gets to that point.

If I saw a child who was obviously past the "too much" point and her parents continued to scare her... I'm not sure what I would do. Maybe stage a loud conversation about it nearby with my husband and daughter (if I had them with me) reassuring my daugher that we would never scare her when she didn't want to be scared and that what the girl was scared of wasn't real, and that she would be okay-- if the parents didn't get the benefit of it, maybe the little girl would.

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Enigmatic
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quote:
Maybe it was that last line that annoyed me so. Besides, even if the entire event happened as reported (which I don't grant), do you really prefer that experience to happen in the company of people who WEREN'T her parents?
I just reread the OP to see the "last line" you were referencing. I think the first time I read the post I took that as "I hope the kid doesn't have to go through this often" but on reread it does sound strange and I can see why you'd be bothered by it.

I agree that someone's overall parenting should not usually be judged from one example (unless that example is violent, of course) but it seems that apart from that one line, most people here are not saying that it should be, only that this specific event as reported was not good parenting.

--Enigmatic

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kmbboots
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I read it as hoping that this was a once off kind of deal with babysitters or something and that parents would have better judgement/compassion.
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Javert Hugo
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I read it as "These people are such awful parents that they shouldn't even be her parents."
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Javert Hugo:
I read it as "These people are such awful parents that they shouldn't even be parents."

I didn't even notice that line the first time through. Honestly, reading it now it sort of has the feel of a reactionary or emotional statement...exaggerated...but basically I take it to mean, "That was a really bad thing they did." I don't think anyone is honestly suggesting that they should have their kids taken away or something based on this particular incident. Hopefully, this is a bad decision made by otherwise well-meaning parents. I do stand by my assertion that, taking the entire story as true, this was a very bad decision.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
Hopefully, this is a bad decision made by otherwise well-meaning parents.

Or by a well-meaning but clueless uncle and aunt, older siblings, babysitters...

People who, if they are clueless, may have an excuse. And whose cluelessness is less likely to have a detrimental effect on the child than her parents' cluelessness would.

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porcelain girl
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That really makes me angry. First of all, I've never liked the whole gory aspects of Halloween. I love spooky creepy things, but not murder and dismemberment.

That's the thing, we can show our kids pictures of ghosts and witches flying on brooms because most people accept that it isn't real. Most everyone jumps when someone surprises them, and it is safe in the end.
But serial killers are real. Murder is real. People really get chopped up into bits. Why would we want to immerse our children in that kind of horror when they are little and expect them to find it FUN? Do we want them to think it is fun?

Gross. I believe in karma. Those folks have it coming to them.

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Tatiana
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I read this in the context of having been an abused child whom dozens of adults knew was being abused but did not step in to help. So when I see things like this happening, I do step in and say something, not because the parents will listen, but for the benefit of the child. The very first step in overcoming abuse is learning that abuse is wrong. That step takes a lifetime for many people. The abused who go on to become abusers themselves have not yet realized that abuse is wrong, for instance. They think it's just how people are supposed to treat one another.

The situation you describe is classic. By the way, whenever I complained about the abuse, the reply given was that it was all in fun, just a joke, etc. as clearly these parents believed, despite the fact that to the child it obviously wasn't funny. So here's the definition of a joke. A joke is something all people involved find funny. If one of the people is screaming and crying and begging to be let go, then it's abuse. Easy to tell, right?

Whenever there was actual injury such as burns and bruises, the answer was that I shouldn't have been so stupid. It was my fault for 1) annoying him and causing him to beat me up 2) agreeing to help him, and therefore leaving myself open to his pranks 3) playing any game with him, therefore asking for it. Clearly a 5 year old who is annoying or helpful deserves to be burned, beaten and shocked with electricity.

The same guy who abused me still delights in the sort of pranks you describe, in scaring kids with stuff that is actually harmless, in playing games and jokes which are humiliating or painful or just not funny to the child, and I would never ever leave a child alone with him (or a cat or dog, for that matter).

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ElJay
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I read the last line the same way boots did. Hopeful that the girl was just out with an aunt and uncle for the day and doesn't have to go through that sort of thing regularly. And I agree wholeheartedly.
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Sharpie
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JH says: "Besides, even if the entire event happened as reported (which I don't grant), do you really prefer that experience to happen in the company of people who WEREN'T her parents?"

Yes, definitely.

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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by Javert Hugo:
Besides, even if the entire event happened as reported (which I don't grant)

Why don't you grant it? I admit, I only saw it from an outsider's perspective (hence why I said nothing), but I didn't make this up.

And I hoped they weren't her parents because they seemed to be laughing at her genuine fear, not in an attempt to help her see it was all make believe. That sort of teasing seems a bit far, when the child in question seems too young to understand.

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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by Javert Hugo:
I read it as "These people are such awful parents that they shouldn't even be her parents."

I didn't mean it that way at all. Sorry to not be clear.
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guinevererobin
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quote:
So when I see things like this happening, I do step in and say something, not because the parents will listen, but for the benefit of the child. The very first step in overcoming abuse is learning that abuse is wrong. That step takes a lifetime for many people. The abused who go on to become abusers themselves have not yet realized that abuse is wrong, for instance. They think it's just how people are supposed to treat one another.
I just wanted to let you know that I found your post helpful. I was in a grocery store once where I saw a mother that I thought was probably abusive to her daughter (she was holding the little girl by her hair, fingers looped in her ponytail, and being nasty in the way she talked to her... nothing that I thought I could call the cops over, nothing that even sounds tha awful here, but very scary in context). I didn't know how to react to the situation though - I was worried that if I went up to the woman I would escalate the situation and make things worse for the girl, so instead I just commented within their earshot to my companion about how that was no way to treat a kid and left the store (I was very upset, stupid as that may sound). Hopefully if there's a next time I'll know how to respond better.
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Tatiana
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guinevererobin, I think you did well. And I don't think it's stupid at all that you were very upset. I feel the same way. Obviously there are limits to what you can legally do in such situations. But I think showing solidarity with the child can at the very least teach the child that they aren't totally alone, that there's another view of what is happening, and possibly can touch that part of them that remains undamaged, uncompromised, deep inside. It's possible the parents will be shamed, too, though that's less likely in my experience.

The default belief for a child is to believe what their parents tell them. And if the child is told that they're stupid and annoying and deserve to be beaten and humiliated every day, then they're likely to believe that. I think that belief is the most damaging part of being abused. The physical contusions and things are less serious in many cases. They mostly heal and leave only this invisible damage that is soul-deep.

Particularly if the abuse happens from earliest childhood, it's difficult for the child to even form a sense of selfhood, of ownership of self. So an understanding that other people don't agree with how one is treated can be a life-saver. If a child can develop a sense of self, and then realize that the abuse is wrong, then it becomes far easier to recognize and reject it, and all the pernicious ideas surrounding it. It becomes possible to escape.

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Christine
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quote:
I was in a grocery store once where I saw a mother that I thought was probably abusive to her daughter (she was holding the little girl by her hair, fingers looped in her ponytail, and being nasty in the way she talked to her... nothing that I thought I could call the cops over, nothing that even sounds tha awful here, but very scary in context).
Wow, if she does that in public, imagine what she might be doing behind closed doors!
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Then I slowly, quietly began to creep up, until she finally said, before I could jump out, "Daddy! Don't scare me for real!"
Sophie does the same thing. [Smile] We'll be bears, and if I get too growly, she hides behind her hands and says, "Daddy! Don't be really a bear to eat me!"
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