posted
I was browsing through the thread by suminonA, "I won't call myself an atheist anymore" and I found myself wondering, is there even a word for what I am?
Maybe I don't need a label at all, but I have to admit that the lack of a label in my life has made it difficult for me to define my beliefs, even to myself. Plus, it would be nice to feel like I belonged to something.
I am not an atheist. I have a firm belief in a God.
I am not agnostic because while I am still searching for answers (like most people, I think), there are many conclusions I have reached and personal truths I have internalized.
I am not Christian because I am not convinced that Jesus is the son of God. (Although he had some good things to say.)
I am not Jewish because I'm not fond of the God in the old testament. (This may cause some problems with Christianity, too.)
I have not converted to another established religion and so far as I know, I don't exactly believe the same thing as any of them. (I have not researched all world religions, though.)
So, what am I? What do you call a person who believes in God, prays to Him, but does not believe in Him in any of the ways that established religions do?
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"Deism is a religious philosophy and movement that derives the existence and nature of God from reason and personal experience."
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posted
I don't know Chris, if she prays with an expectation that she is praying to a personal God who may actually influence her situation, that would pretty much disqualify her for deism.
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posted
I agree with Chris-- but I had to say I was just tickled by this title. Remember in Little Women when Amy is upset that her friends are trying to label her father?
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posted
Deism sounds promising. I'm going to have to take some time to read that entire Wikipedia article.
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posted
Hmmm...I am struggling a bit with the watchmaker idea of God. I don't discount miracles and I don't think God just watches from a distance, although I don't think He's quite as hands on as many Christians I know seem to.
Plus, I also have a few notions that aren't based on reason or personal experience. I'm just inspired to feel that way. For example, I have this idea that maybe God doesn't know everything that's gong to happen and that maybe part of the point of creating the universe was so that He can discover through us. A bit different, perhaps, but definitely not reasoned out or based on experience. Just a notion.
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posted
Not all Christian groups believe god is hands on. Well, I could be looking at it wrong. But you look at Presbyterians v. Methodists, for instance. Well, I sort of know their different, but I'm hesitant to elaborate and get something wrong.
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe different things about Jesus Christ. Like his death repaid the sin of Adam. But they don't believe in an atonement in the sense that Mormons do, where he went on to repay each of our sins personally in an infinite act of grace.
If your belief at this stage is to not have an opinion on specific doctrinal matters, that's probably okay too. Is there are particular reason you consider yourself not-Unitarian? Do you have any family religious traditions?
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quote:What do you call a person who believes in God, prays to Him, but does not believe in Him in any of the ways that established religions do?
I pretty much call that person "me." In a playful mood I sometimes make up cheeky names for my religion. I suppose that what I think of as God is actually the energy of an aware Universe, but the idea you articulated-- the Universe as God's exploration of existence-- is a part of it, too.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: I can see the Universe as a creative expression of God, an artifact of his nature.
I like that way of putting it.
As for the Unitarian church -- The one I visited seemed to draw a lot of "New Age" or Wiccan members so I didn't feel comfortable there. I've moved since then, maybe I should try it again.
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posted
Theist to me seems like the best label. The only definition of theism is that you believe in God.
I have to ask though, what do you think God is like, since you don't belong to any religion? Do you kind of have your own personal image of God that you created yourself?
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I have to ask though, what do you think God is like, since you don't belong to any religion? Do you kind of have your own personal image of God that you created yourself?
In terms of what He's physically like, I tend to think of him as being the whole of the universe.
In terms of who he is, I tend to think of Him as being as rich and diverse as the universe itself, capable of being many different things to many different people.
For me, He's somewhat distant, but watchful. He gave me certain gifts and potential but now he expects me to decide what to do with them. I am a part of the universe, after all, so I have it in me to know what to do. God will listen, but the only guidance I think He gives is in the form of what's already inside of me.
Anyway, I could drone on but that's the gist of it. Sometimes I see, hear, or read something that alters my perception of Him somewhat, but most of that has been fixed for several years now.
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I have to ask though, what do you think God is like, since you don't belong to any religion? Do you kind of have your own personal image of God that you created yourself?
In terms of what He's physically like, I tend to think of him as being the whole of the universe.
In terms of who he is, I tend to think of Him as being as rich and diverse as the universe itself, capable of being many different things to many different people.
For me, He's somewhat distant, but watchful. He gave me certain gifts and potential but now he expects me to decide what to do with them. I am a part of the universe, after all, so I have it in me to know what to do. God will listen, but the only guidance I think He gives is in the form of what's already inside of me.
So basically God is the Universe, with a will.
That makes sense to me. It helps me pinpoint exactly what some people believe God IS...something I've been wondering for a long time. (I'm an atheist).
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posted
There's no word for what I am, either. Lately I've tended to call myself a Sufi Mormon. That sort of gets at the gist of it.
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posted
The best word that described Einstein was "Pantheist". In his case, he never prayed to the "Universe", he just wanted to find out the order behind it.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: In terms of what He's physically like, I tend to think of him as being the whole of the universe.
In terms of who he is, I tend to think of Him as being as rich and diverse as the universe itself, capable of being many different things to many different people.
For me, He's somewhat distant, but watchful. He gave me certain gifts and potential but now he expects me to decide what to do with them. I am a part of the universe, after all, so I have it in me to know what to do. God will listen, but the only guidance I think He gives is in the form of what's already inside of me.
I would reiterate my question: Do you expect YFD (Your Favourite Deity) to affect the reality around you by answering to your prayers? Plus, what kind of prayers are your favourite? “let it rain”, “let me get that job position I applied for”, “let me win the lottery”, “let this plane get to destination without crashing”, “let me be happy”, “let me have a good year” or what?
quote:I am not Christian because I am not convinced that Jesus is the son of God.
Is this the same thing as being convinced that Jesus is not the son of God?I mean, specifically in your case. I'm curious.
No. I am not convinced that Jesus is not the son of God. I am simply not convinced that he is. There is uncertainty there so it is definitely not the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by suminonA: I would reiterate my question: Do you expect YFD (Your Favourite Deity) to affect the reality around you by answering to your prayers? Plus, what kind of prayers are your favourite? “let it rain”, “let me get that job position I applied for”, “let me win the lottery”, “let this plane get to destination without crashing”, “let me be happy”, “let me have a good year” or what?
A.
I don't usually pray FOR anything. I usually just chat. Hopes and desires are reflected through that, but as I believe that ultimately I have to make changes to my own life, God is more of a sounding board for ideas.
I don't really think He changes reality to answer my prayers, although strange things happen so I don't entirely discount the possibility. I guess I'm not firm on that one.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: I don't usually pray FOR anything. I usually just chat. Hopes and desires are reflected through that, but as I believe that ultimately I have to make changes to my own life, God is more of a sounding board for ideas.
That’s the most incomprehensible (for me) description of “prayer” that I have ever heard. What’s obvious is that your definition has nothing to do with mine.
quote:I don't really think He changes reality to answer my prayers, although strange things happen so I don't entirely discount the possibility. I guess I'm not firm on that one.
I think you should get some (more) firm beliefs before searching for a label. Until then I propose “Ambiguous”.
posted
I get that you don't understand my view of prayer (it's not typical) but I'm not sure why I need to have firmer beliefs for any reason, let alone to find a label for myself? Why must I indoctrinate myself into a set of specific beliefs, whether my own or someone else's? Is there no religion or religious label that accounts for those of us who are still searching for answers?
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: I'm not sure why I need to have firmer beliefs for any reason, let alone to find a label for myself?
I think one needs firmer beliefs if that someone wants to be able to defend them. If you don’t want that, then you may change your views each day a few times, and I’d call you “inconsequent”.
So you’re right, one can have a label without firmer beliefs, so no prerequisite there.
quote: Why must I indoctrinate myself into a set of specific beliefs, whether my own or someone else's?
I don’t like indoctrination of any kind. I recommend learning and making informed choices. [edit: shorter paragraph]
quote: Is there no religion or religious label that accounts for those of us who are still searching for answers?
Resumed to that you could call yourself “a weak, non apatheist agnostic”.
posted
suminonA: I'm not sure you're quite understanding...which is understandable since I'm trying to explain ideas that are out of the mainstream, a little abstract, and require a bit of a paradigm shift.
I've never tried to defend my beliefs. I have tried to explain them, such as here. It would be nice to be able to do that a little better.
There are things I believe firmly, such as the existence of God and the idea that He is the whole of the universe.
There are things I don't have a firm belief in, such as whether God answers prayers. I guess to me the idea of whether or not prayers are answered isn't all that important. I don't expect *my* prayers to be answered, and that's enough for me
And maybe that's the difference...to you, is the idea that God answers prayers central to your belief structure?
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posted
Anon, not everyone has the same views about "firmness" (whatever that means) of religious beliefs as you do. And inconsistent is the word you want.
Christine's description of prayer is quite in line with that of most theists I know. It is usually atheists (of the "what has He done for you lately?" stripe) who insist that prayer ought to be utilitarian and/or demanding.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: suminonA: I'm not sure you're quite understanding...which is understandable since I'm trying to explain ideas that are out of the mainstream, a little abstract, and require a bit of a paradigm shift.
You can be sure: I don’t understand. I’d like to, that’s why I ask so many questions. But I will stick to the topic, which is finding a label for you (as far as I’m concerned). I also try to give my reasons for the proposed labels.
quote:I've never tried to defend my beliefs. I have tried to explain them, such as here. It would be nice to be able to do that a little better.
I too think it would be nice if you could do that better. If my questions bother you, or give you the impression that I try to confuse you or something like that, say so and I’ll stop.
quote:to you, is the idea that God answers prayers central to your belief structure?
No, not at all. Not believing in a personal deity, or any other kind that could answer prayers, it is a non-issue for me. I asked you this because if you pray to a deity that you think can’t answer prayers, then the label should be “self-inconsistent”. The way you answered implies the possibility, but the probability of it being the case is so ambiguous that can defend any position, which is “inconsequent”.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Anon, not everyone has the same views about "firmness" (whatever that means) of religious beliefs as you do. And inconsistent is the word you want.
Oh, thank you.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Christine's description of prayer is quite in line with that of most theists I know. It is usually atheists (of the "what has He done for you lately?" stripe) who insist that prayer ought to be utilitarian and/or demanding.
I don’t insist that prayer ought to be one kind of the other. I asked the question giving some examples, but I’m still waiting for some “piece of prayer” (if that’s possible to write here) to see what it is. The description didn’t clarify it one bit for me.
I remember all the fuss about some experiment about the “efficacy of prayer” in the context of hospitalised people who had or not people praying for their recovery. That’s mainly where the idea of “prayer” comes from (for me), and if that’s the work of some stripe of atheists and has nothing to do with the concept here, then I am still searching to understand what does “prayer” in Christine's view is.
quote:I too think it would be nice if you could do that better.
This was incredibly rude. If you want an elightening discussion, you would be better served by treating your correspondents with respect.
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posted
Christine, I think that your description of prayer is excellent. It, along with prayers of gratitude, seem to me like a very mature, healthy model for prayer. I think that St. Ignatius would agree.
The model of prayer that he endorsed (called the Examen) is something like this:
Thanksgiving (what am I grateful for, today?), Intention (today, what do I really want?), Examination (how have I experienced You today?), Contrition (how have I missed experiencing and responding to You today?), and Hope (help me to grow in Your love tomorrow).
quote:I asked you this because if you pray to a deity that you think can’t answer prayers, then the label should be “self-inconsistent”.
I just looked up the definition of the word "pray" in an on-line dictionary and here's what Merriam-Webster have to say:
quote: 1 : entreat implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful> 2 : to get or bring by praying intransitive verb 1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
It seems that the world would agree with your definition of prayer. If this is all prayer can be, then I suppose I don't usually pray at all. I do confess and offer thanks sometimes, though...
Perhaps I just talk to God.
Sometimes when I've had a bad day, I want to tell someone about it. My husband usually gets this honor but unfortunately, he likes to play Mr. Fix-It. If you've ever read the Mars/Venus book, it describes this annoying habit of my husband beautifully. I don't want him to fix anything, I just want him to listen, maybe with a well timed, "Oooh." or "I'm sorry."
That's kind of what I want from God, too. A sense of peace, of it being all right, of there being something bigger than me and my troubles.
Call me crazy if you want, but I think of God as a friend. He listens to me and in turn, I need to do things for Him. That's what friends do, after all.
But since God is the whole of the universe, the best things I can do for him involve making my corner of the universe a better place. <Insert morals into belief structure here>
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Christine, I think that your description of prayer is excellent. It, along with prayers of gratitude, seem to me like a very mature, healthy model for prayer. I think that St. Ignatius would agree.
The model of prayer that he endorsed (called the Examen) is something like this:
Thanksgiving (what am I grateful for, today?), Intention (today, what do I really want?), Examination (how have I experienced You today?), Contrition (how have I missed experiencing and responding to You today?), and Hope (help me to grow in Your love tomorrow).
I missed a few posts while I was drafting my last answer. I like this model of prayer. It does seem very similar to what I do.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Perhaps I just talk to God.
Sometimes when I've had a bad day, I want to tell someone about it. My husband usually gets this honor but unfortunately, he likes to play Mr. Fix-It. If you've ever read the Mars/Venus book, it describes this annoying habit of my husband beautifully. I don't want him to fix anything, I just want him to listen, maybe with a well timed, "Oooh." or "I'm sorry."
That's kind of what I want from God, too. A sense of peace, of it being all right, of there being something bigger than me and my troubles.
Part of classic prayer is worship. I don't really do that. Call me crazy if you want, but I think of God as a friend. He listens to me and in turn, I need to do things for Him. That's what friends do, after all.
But since God is the whole of the universe, the best things I can do for him involve making my corner of the universe a better place. <Insert morals into belief structure here>
This, plus what kmbboots just said, makes a lot of sense for me. Thank you.
I can understand better your view now, and I’m sorry if I was rude to you at any moment.
posted
It did come across a little rude, but tone is difficult to convey over the internet so I always try to give the benefit of the doubt. Studies have shown that over 50% of on-line content is misjudged in terms of tone. Besides, it's not like everything I write comes across perfectly.
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(Only partly joking. Your idea of God and mine are really very similar. I don't want to convert you or anything, but I bet you would actually feel quite comfortable at my church. A lot of the "Jesus problem" is addressed by how, exactly, we mean "Son".)
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Heh. Maybe you're a Jesuit?
(Only partly joking. Your idea of God and mine are really very similar. I don't want to convert you or anything, but I bet you would actually feel quite comfortable at my church. A lot of the "Jesus problem" is addressed by how, exactly, we mean "Son".)
Oh? How, exactly, do you mean "son?" (Not looking to be converted, but am always open to new ideas.)
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posted
Well...it is complicated. I do not mean that there is a biological, DNA, sperm meets egg, "fatherhood". Jesus is the Son of God as we are children of God, but more completely.
Here is a useful analogy for me. It is a metaphor, therefor not perfect, but it is useful.
God = all Light
Jesus = Sun - completely light, really BIG light.
Holy Spirit = candles, light bulbs, phosphorescent moss, and so forth.
We all have/are "light" (Holy Spirit) which is God. Jesus was fully "light", so fully God. Where our relationship to God is imperfect, His kinship/connection/relationship to God was so complete that He is called "Son" - as are we all.
I know that is kind of vague. Talking about God, for me, is necessarily incomplete.
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In a playful mood I sometimes make up cheeky names for my religion. I suppose that what I think of as God is actually the energy of an aware Universe, but the idea you articulated-- the Universe as God's exploration of existence-- is a part of it, too.
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