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Tatiana: Also read D&C section 93. For me, it clarifies and expounds on the nature of the Savior, God, and His children. It also touches on the points of omnipotence-- and that he is bound in some ways, but not in ways that I really translate as to not being omnipotent. When your very composition is Truth and Light, you obey Truth. But doesn't that make you omnipotent? Anyway, that is just one of my favorite chapters of scriptures period, it blows my mind and I have a seriously nirvanic experience every time I read it.
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: If Satan wasn't exactly how God wanted him to be, then God could just change him. Perhaps not in Mormonism, but in most flavors of Christianity.
quote:If you're not religious, or if your religion doesn't fit this question then answer the Lord of the Rings question "Does Eru Illuvatar love Morgoth?" which I think is equivalent
I don't know the LOTR lore that well. Was Morgoth created by Eru Illuvatar? Can Eru make Morgoth not exist with a thought (or change his nature)?
Yes, he was. Everything was created by his song, particularly the Ainur, and their additions to his theme helped create the rest of it all.
IMO, yes, God loves the Devil, but he doesn't require his behavior. He allows free will, and choice is necessary for free will. Without options there is no choice, and no free will.
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I am not convinced the world would be a perfect and wonderful place if the devil were gone. Satan chose to rebel without anone tempting him, so why wouldn't each of us still be capable of making that choice without someone tempting us?
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BlackBlade, I haven't been through the temple yet. I'm going to wait and go when I get married, I think. Does the temple elucidate these questions?
All of the ideas posted are really interesting to me. DevilDreamt, I think there does have to be some sort of justice for anything to be made right. I agree that our flawed versions of justice we carry out here on earth don't usually accomplish much. It's interesting that the Morningstar is associated in different cultures with similar ideas.
Venus is the morning star, of course, because it's always near the sun (since we're outside its orbit) and it's very bright, so it dominates the sky either before dawn or after sunset, and so it's called, respectively, the morning star or the evening star in those two manifestations. Venus is the brightest thing in the sky besides the sun and the moon, so it's no wonder that it makes a big impression on people.
I do think there has to be a possibility of Satan's seeing the light and coming over to the side of good. In that case, some lesser evil being would probably take his place. I wonder how would the world change, if that happened? Would we feel a great burden lifted from our spirits, and have fewer temptations? And what could possibly convert Satan? It's interesting to speculate. Maybe we should all pray for Satan's conversion, that his soul should find joy and peace, and the world be less troubled.
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quote:BlackBlade, I haven't been through the temple yet. I'm going to wait and go when I get married, I think. Does the temple elucidate these questions?
I can understand the appeal, but I'd encourage you to think about going - not necessarily for informational purposes, but to embrace your importance as an individual in the Kingdom.
I haven't ever really thought the temple expands on what is known of the devil over what is in the scriptures, particularly the Pearl of Great Price. The scriptures don't encompass everything in the temple, but the temple doesn't dwell overly much on the devil in my opinion. I mean, I thought I was going to learn certain things in the temple that didn't wind up being part of it. So when I get a chance I like to warn people to not get too focused on any one expectation.
To me, that medallion in the book of Abraham is all about the Temple, but my husband doesn't see it. The temple is a fairly subjective experience. [edit] All in all, I'd say it doesn't provide final answers so much as it is a tool for searching for answers.[/edit]
P.S. I guess we're supposed to pray for our enemies, so I guess that's okay. I feel less comfortable with praying for a specific result.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I had a sort of spiritual experience today about this question, which I had never thought to ask before. I'm curious what people here think about it. Does God love Satan or not?
I'm totally serious with this question:
What difference does it make whether or not god loves satan? Does it change your opinion of god, or shed light into some now-dark corner of your particular -ology?
Or is it mainly academic, like 'Could Superman impregnate a human female?'
I apologize if my question is offensive -- I'm honestly curious.
Honestly curious questions are never offensive to me, I guess. The reason why it matters to me is for my own personal moral searching and questioning. Elie Wiesel's talk made me see how very guilty I am, at least of sins of omission, vis a vis the suffering oppressed masses in the world, the impoverished, the hungry, those in desperate need. I am, though not rich by U.S. standards at all, at least relatively well off. I'm in no danger of going hungry. I have a roof over my head, and decent medical care, indoor plumbing, etc. Compared to how most of humanity lives, it's sheer decadence, you know? I should do more. We're taught that large differences of wealth between the saints is bad. If we're not one we're not his. There are so many suffering children whom I could help who I don't help. I need to fix that.
I also have things I should have done in the past that I didn't do, or things I did wrongly. Most notably, my friend committed suicide when I was a teenager, and I could have reached out to him before he died, and been a better friend to him. Who knows, I might even have helped him find a way to stay alive. But I was self-centered then, and oblivious. I like to think now that I would notice and take action if something like that happened again. But still I can't go back and undo what was done. That I can never do.
In my current state of blessed community with God, I often forget these sorts of things. I think perhaps I need to be reminded of them, even if it comes from someone not at all benevolent, like Maynard or Satan.
That's why it matters to me, and why I'm thinking of all this and wondering what other people think about it. I'm just puzzling out how this all works, and how I should live my life. I'm thinking about the atonement and how it has brought me to life. And also remembering the dead and hoping they will forgive me, wondering how I can ever make amends.
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You personally cannot make amends, but you can make amends with God, and he will make you part of his amends.
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quote:BlackBlade, I haven't been through the temple yet. I'm going to wait and go when I get married, I think. Does the temple elucidate these questions?
I should think so, though Pooka is right in that alot of it is found in the Pearl of Great Price, and elsewhere in the scriptures. I think the temple clearly shows how Satan in large part felt justified in how he entreated Eve to partake of the fruit. It is probably best that you wait until you get married, but I would suggest that if you get close to say 30 or even the high 20s in age that you go ahead and go to the temple. But remember that's between you and your bishop to discuss. The temple ceremony is also good for helping put a hand on how Satan and God interact when they speak to each other.
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quote:. I think the temple clearly shows how Satan in large part felt justified in how he entreated Eve to partake of the fruit.
. I don't really get that. You never know what part of what he's saying is a lie or not.
I used to talk this point with the Jehovah's Witnesses a lot. They argued that everything Satan said was a lie, until I pointed out that he said their eyes were opened, and then the narrator of Genesis [Moses] affirms that their eyes were opened. Though one thing we agreed on was that satan means "accuser" and what the devil does is accuse God of being unjust, unkind, unloving, imperfect etc. He also accuses us of our own sins.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: Though one thing we agreed on was that satan means "accuser" and what the devil does is accuse God of being unjust, unkind, unloving, imperfect etc. He also accuses us of our own sins.
Is that characteristic exclusive to the devil as you see it?
quote:. I think the temple clearly shows how Satan in large part felt justified in how he entreated Eve to partake of the fruit.
. I don't really get that. You never know what part of what he's saying is a lie or not.
I used to talk this point with the Jehovah's Witnesses a lot. They argued that everything Satan said was a lie, until I pointed out that he said their eyes were opened, and then the narrator of Genesis [Moses] affirms that their eyes were opened. Though one thing we agreed on was that satan means "accuser" and what the devil does is accuse God of being unjust, unkind, unloving, imperfect etc. He also accuses us of our own sins.
Oh, Satan can tell the truth, and WILL if it suits his purpose. His purpose is to tempt and drag those who did not deny God's plan, and that received a body, into his own miserable conditions. I do not believe that Satan and his followers like not having a body, nor that their plan was not chosen. It was a war in heaven, not a lousy Connect-Four match.
Satan's purpose is to put a stop to the work of God, ie: bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is easier to deceive and elegantly draw souls away when your deception resembles or twists the fruit (Edit: I meant "twists the truth," but I kinda like twists the fruit. Heh). Part of what the serpent said to Eve was true, but not fully. Satan is not privy to God's thoughts. God knows Satan. Satan thought he was putting a stop to God's plan by getting Adam and Eve to transgress, but he was actually pushing God's work forth - as is outlined in 2nd Nephi and the Pearl of Great Price, etc.
Satan will tell you the truth, just not the whole truth. His ways mimic God's ways, and make shadowplays and mockeries of true covenants and ordinances. This of course means that, in the end, they are lies. But each lie may be composed of a little truth, to serve the lie, and destroy the truth.
posted
Yeah, since Satan is the Father of Lies, I think it's kind of like Puck in Magic Street-- he may be telling the truth, but even if he is you can never believe him... He only tells the truth when it suits his lying.
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From the Christian standpoint, you would have thought he'd been able to do something about Jesus. Well, I guess he sort of did, in the end.
Satan is as able to make Hell a nicer place than Heavean as Stalin was able to make Russia a nicer place than America -- only moreso. His idea of "nice" is not what anyone else likes.
So, yeah, I think the apolcalypse probably will not look exactly like everyone is expecting it to.
P.S. How important is the second coming? I thought Jesus already won through the advent, atonement and crucifixion. I mean, it's a pretty big prophecy, but is it necessary to what Mormons call the plan of salvation? P.P.S. Mormons don't believe in the same type of Rapture as Huckabee, I think.
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Well, he did tempt Jesus in the desert for 40 days. He tried.
The second coming is necessary because the Milennium is when the work will be completed in perfect form. At least, that's what I understand.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: P.S. How important is the second coming? I thought Jesus already won through the advent, atonement and crucifixion. I mean, it's a pretty big prophecy, but is it necessary to what Mormons call the plan of salvation? P.P.S. Mormons don't believe in the same type of Rapture as Huckabee, I think.
If you're asking me, not important at all.
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quote:Originally posted by camus: If God loves Satan, and we are created in God's image, are obligated to try to love Satan as well if we are to be followers of Christ?
Cuz I would totally wear a shirt saying "True Christians love Satan."
It would go well with my "Atheists for Jesus" t-shirt.
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Satan as the accuser is exactly the sense that I got in my vision/experience I had the other day. And where does the remorse come from that fuels our repentance if not from an accuser who can make us truly understand the extent of the damage we've done? If ... was it Alma the younger?... forgive my sketchy scriptural knowledge .... if he had not been harrowed up for days experiencing all the suffering he had caused firsthand ...
Uncle Orson wrote about this too in the Earthborn books. You guys know the story.
If he had not spent days in shame and horror at what he had done, could he possibly ever have felt the joy he did when all that was overcome? Could he really have changed?
And does God have the right to forgive, when it comes down to it, someone like Hitler unless and until the boy Elie Wiesel (who actually was in the camps) has? Christ said that about it being better for a person to have a millstone tied to their necks and be drowned in the sea than to cause harm to those little ones. There's no sense that those who torture the innocent are to be let off lightly.
Thinking about all this, I see the office of accuser as being a necessary and important one. I agree, though, that Satan (and Maynard, too, in his song) uses accusation as a way to drag people down instead of a tool for their exaltation. That's where I can't really reconcile it all.
I guess it all falls back into the central paradox that suffering and pain and evil are somehow necessary for good to exist. It seems so wrong, and yet I can't figure out a way around it.
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quote:Satan's purpose is to put a stop to the work of God
Can Satan read the bible? Because, let me tell you, he's doing a really stupid job of it.
If I were Satan (and not saying I'm not ) I would do two things that would completely mess up God's plan.
1. Make Hell into a much nicer place than Heaven.
2. Sit on my hands and not bring about the apocalypse.
No apocalypse means no rapture and no tribulation and no second coming. Thus, Satan wins by default.
Yes he can read the bible, or at least has heard it talked about as he quoted it to Jesus during the 40 days of temptation. But neither of your plans are practical.
1: You assume Satan has more power then God if he can make hell a better place then heaven.
2: People can still sin or make mistakes without Satan's help, evil exists outside of Satan. Not to mention I think Satan is not alone in his efforts to tempt others, Mormons believe that the angels who rebelled with Satan assist him in his work. So if you sit on your hands all you do is make the number of people who live in misery with you forever and ever fewer, and that would make you feel even worse.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I love hatrack!
(because throughout this thread it seems you're arguing you should love Satan, and so being told you love us all in this context is amusing to me.)
I read this really weird book over the holidays. It had a recommendation from Marianne "A course in Miracles" Williamson, who is all about Love and says there is no devil.
What went on in the story depended a lot on whether it was a story about me and someone who offends me in this life or if it was about Jesus and Satan. I'll see if I can sum it up quickly.
There's a little soul in the burning, brilliant presence of God who wants to learn about forgiveness. Now first God says "everything is perfect, what is there to forgive?" But the soul still wants to know so God allows another soul to become darkness so the soul who asked the first impertinent question can go find out what it means to be a light by being surrounded in dark.
Well, if there is no such thing as a need to forgive, the whole story doesn't make any sense. It also makes the soul who agrees to be evil seem rather heroic.
Also, the jacket (and not the book itself) said the book teaches that there's no such thing as absolute right and wrong.
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lol, I meant I love the banter. There was totally no double meaning put into that.
But yeah, I guess you should take that for what it's worth, from someone who thinks Satan is probably really just being honest most of the time, and is a cynical and sad person, and just isn't able to maintain a positive outlook on things. I tend to love the kids who misbehave the most too, of all the kids in any given group.
I definitely do believe there's such thing as absolute right and wrong, though. And I do believe in the devil, or at least one or more beings who are willing to try to live up to the legend. I remember those ringwraiths I met that time. Brrrrrr, please don't ask me to try to love them. They froze my blood. Maybe God loves them too but that's way beyond my level.
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In personal belief, God must love Satan if he is one of his creations. Yet I still think there is a bigger question that can come to mind.
As a Jew, I believe in the idea that God knows everything that is going to happen in the world throughout time. Also we're supposed to believe that God has given us free will and we have the choice to do good or bad.
Yet, at the same time we're supposed to believe that God is all powerful within our world and can control everything. If that is so then why doesn't God destroy evil from the world as a whole? If the fact with evil is that God can't get rid of it from the world than he can't be all powerful. If He has the ability to rid the world of evil but doesn't do so, then isn't God actually evil?
I know most people will disagree with me on the last sentence but hear me out. If lets say a teacher gives out a test on something you haven't learned yet and she knew you would fail. Not only that she is going to count the test in full on your report card, wouldn't you call that teacher evil? So if in fact God does know the future and gives you free will and he gives you a test of some sort to test whether or not you will sin, he must know whether or not you will fail. Then, if you do fail God technically will hold you to be punished for the sin that you did even though he knew you would fail. So if you think of it that way shouldn't God be evil?
I hope people don't take this the wrong way as this is a question that has been bugging me for a while and I wanted to see what people have to say about it.
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Knowing that you will fail is not the same thing as knowing that you must fail. IMO, the latter would be evil; the former is not -- it's necessary for free will to exist.
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quote: If He has the ability to rid the world of evil but doesn't do so, then isn't God actually evil?
If you had the choice, as an individual, would you like it to live in a Universe where there was no “evil impersonated” (such as Satan) who must be fought also outside Human level, and where “evil” was as a subjective label as “beautiful” was?
Geekazoid, here's how my personal theology works(currently). Perhaps you may see something useful in it for yourself.
God has a single will and is a single being. When God decided to create the universe, his will dictated everything that happened, and everything happened in harmony. This natural order(his will) is what we perceive as "good", and rightly so, as it unites us with God, from whom we were derived. Since the pre-fall creation was just a material expression of his consciousness(he imagines it and it is so), this may be what prompted God to want to interact with and love this universe he created, rather than have it run exactly as he willed.
So, he somehow creates a "rift" in his consciousness(becomes separate, or maybe unconscious of certain unspecified things), in order to have some things happen that were not in accordance with his will.
This caused Morningstar to rebel, and precipitously caused the fall of man and chaos in the universe. Now, God could interact with humans who follow their own free will, loving them and teaching them, as he wished to be the case. The downside is that the whole universe to some extent acts outside of God's will(this would be what we call "evil"), and we must be able to act against his will to have "free will".
So you see, "evil" is simply acting apart from God's will. "Good" is simply God's will. This is the absolute objective definition of good and evil. Good and evil do not exist except with relation to God, and everything in the universe is in relation to God. As creations of God we naturally want everything to be synched with God's will, so we desire "goodness" in everything.
God is not evil to let evil exist, because God can only act under his own will by definition, which is the definition of good. You can think of the whole salvation bit as our attempt to resync ourselves with God's will, and be more or less permanently synched up after we die. Hell is what happens when someone fails to resync with God's will after they die. After you die you are no longer tied to a physical body, which kept you partially in God's will despite yourself. So as disembodied soul you must either become synched with God's will or desynched. By your free will you must sync up to some extent, as it seems to me that if God brought a completely desynched soul into harmony with him, he would unify all of creation again, thus ending free will.
How to become resynched, or saved? Well, that's a rather contentious topic :-P
Does God love Satan? Yes, but disprefers his actions. (to be on topic)
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So, Temposs, are you saying God is now trying to get back to square one? A state of non-interaction with the universe, but only this time in the end he will have more souls with no free will to decide whether to worship him or not?
I don't pretend to fathom God's thinking, but that seems like an awful lot of work and heartache just to have more living entities that in the end will just do what you want anyway. If I was an omnipotent, all knowing God, I probably would of ran a simulation of a freewill universe, read the results and thought, "Eh, I'll go with some bi-pedal automatons in different shapes and colors!"
Of course I'm a graduate of the school of The Path of Least Resistance.
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naledge, you have the abstract notion of my model correct, though not the reasoning and end. Yes, he wants all his creation to come back to him, but the key is that he wants everyone to come back of their own free will. It centers around God wanting to have a relationship with his people.
I never said that people after they die become automotons. Since the person to some extent chooses by free will to be united with God, to freely love God, the knowledge of having made choices to love God would make them different than just automotons. It might be that it would make them in genuine/sincere communion with God. I can't really postulate beyond this.
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The temple ceremony is also good for helping put a hand on how Satan and God interact when they speak to each other.
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