posted
Yes, it is definitely not pure fantasy, though it might be more properly phrased as death before dishonor, where surrender is not always dishonor.
On many islands with Japanese families the US occupied, some women would jump to their deaths from cliffs when it became clear the US was taking over. Mothers would jump with children in their arms.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Apparently, that was not a good day to die.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: The term is seppuku. The use of 'hari-kari' or 'hara-kiri' is about like calling creamed chipped beef over toast 'SOS' using the words rather than the initials.
And that "death before surrender" is pure fantasy. Japan had so many wars during the feudal period that if it were true, there wouldn't have been enough Japanese left to repopulate the country.
Others have answered this sufficiently but it should be known that during the senjoku jidai armies were made up of mostly peasant conscripts and plenty of samurai became ronin rather then die for their lord. The actual samurai class was only say 1,000,000 members including their families out of say 23,000,000 in 1600.
Death before dishonor really only applied to Samurai not to the average peasant.
IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Considering that McCain was instrumental in prodding the US into renormalizing its relationship with Vietnam and recognizing its government, I very much doubt that the Vietnamese leadership cares what he called them during the war, or that he occasionally slipped on an epithet after the war. Especially since they probably used worse to describe Americans during that far-gone era, and made similar slips afterwards.
Since renormalization, McCain has been a far better advocate for the interests of Vietnam than any of its government's longtime allies. That being so, trying to score political points on this matter is just a "Silly Season" distraction (as Obama put it) from the real issues that need to be addressed in the here&now.
Im not american I do not need to score points, but the point I am trying to make, is that its not good politics to use racial slurs inregards to whom were formally your interrogaters when they are now the representatives.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Meier: To the Japanese McCain is a coward, and a shame to his family, his nation, to the president, and to his honour. There is no higher dishonour then to surrender.
So, Blayne, you think he ought to have done hari-kiri?
nyt, I am saying that mostly in response to Ron Lambert is that one mans hero is another mans coward.
IP: Logged |
posted
What do you mean McCain "surrendered"? He was a fighter pilot, and was shot down. Then he was captured on foot, alone, injured, and trying to hide in a pond, if I remember the account correctly.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
a) He was trying to "Hide in a pond" not fighting heroically.
b) Surrender means to give one self up to the enemy. He did this instead of fighting to the death with nothing more than guts, a toothpick, and his patented intimidating stare.
Would such an attempt have been useful? No. Would it have been wise? No. Would it have accomplished anything except killing a good man? No.
But it was a surrender.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Lyr, I'm not sure I agree with you on the international level. I'd expect the leaders of Vietnam to be more saavy than that, but I really know nothing about them.
On the domestic level, I think there is an obvious enormous difference between using a derogatory term to refer to an entire race of people and using it to denote an extreme hatred for the people who tortured you for years.
Like I said, I already agree that there's a difference. My concern is for the precedent. What else will escape from the gaping maw that is McCain's mouth? And what might it cost us? He might think his straight talk is cool and desireable, but I think he has no subtlty, and no diplomacy. And that has cost us in the past.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:What else will escape from the gaping maw that is McCain's mouth? And what might it cost us? He might think his straight talk is cool and desireable, but I think he has no subtlty, and no diplomacy.
What are you basing this on? With such vehemence, it can't just be the gooks thing.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
This almost calls out for a separate thread, but Clinton, Obama and McCain have all had to deal with distancing themselves from supporters who have significant baggage or have just behaved badly.
This thread started out with McCain's handling of Cunningham's remarks at a rally for McCain.
HOUSTON -- The president of the Catholic League blasted John McCain on Thursday for accepting the endorsement of Texas evangelist John Hagee, calling the controversial pastor a bigot who has "waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church."
Hagee, who is known for his crusading support of Israel, backed McCain's presidential bid Wednesday, standing next to the senator at a hotel in San Antonio and calling McCain "a man of principle."
But Catholic League President Bill Donohue said in a statement Thursday that Hagee has written extensively in negative ways about the Catholic Church, "calling it 'The Great Whore,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system.' "
So far, no comments from the McCain campaign.
This looks like it could be an ongoing issue for both sides in this campaign. Wonder how it will all work out?
If Obama gets the nomination, maybe he and McCain need to negotiate on "rejecting and denouncing" embarrassing but potentially valuable supporters more than they need to negotiate campaign financing.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
