quote:Like a Munchausen syndrome by proxy? Scary thought.
It certainly crossed my mind, but like I said, it's very very hard to make correct assessments of the situation without being there.
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Of course. Now that you've pointed it out, I see where you get that impression, but of course we can't know.
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I had thought the same thing. But it would be very difficult to say what they should be doing differently-- I mean, it's hard to fault them for advocating for their son when the schools seem to not care.
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I'm not so sure why people are so upset with Pix. I thought her comments, all the way through, were clearly jocular.
And I also think there's a useful distinction (discussion-wise) to the stereotypes. There is a reason why Nebraska has a consistently top rated football team with a big power running game and why Cal-Berkley generally doesn't find its way into the AP top 25. Obviously there are exceptions, but if I'm building an offensive line (or picking who's gonna be on my side in a fight) and all I know is "son of a farmer" versus "son of an academic", give me the farmers.
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I don't think they were jocular and I don't think she was kidding.
I also think she was unfair, both to the people of Arkansas and to the children of college professors.
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quote:And I also think there's a useful distinction (discussion-wise) to the stereotypes. There is a reason why Nebraska has a consistently top rated football team with a big power running game and why Cal-Berkley generally doesn't find its way into the AP top 25. Obviously there are exceptions, but if I'm building an offensive line (or picking who's gonna be on my side in a fight) and all I know is "son of a farmer" versus "son of an academic", give me the farmers.
Are we okay with using the reverse stereotype? To wit, if I have a problem that requires a great deal of complex thinking, give me the son of an academic versus the son of a farmer?
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Are we okay with using the reverse stereotype? To wit, if I have a problem that requires a great deal of complex thinking, give me the son of an academic versus the son of a farmer?
Again, if that's *all* I know about them? Yes, though I would probably prefer to replace "complex thinking" with something else...
For whatever it may be worth, it's about environment, not heredity, for me. The son of a farmer is more likely to have done significant manual labor than the son of the academic. Conversely, the son of the academic has likely had greater emphasis placed on education and other intellectual pursuits.
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So you were just trying to make a joke, Pix? You don't believe that college professors are snooty?
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Jim, Fair enough. How realistic is it that you only know what someone's parents did? You seem to be treating this as a real possibility, where it doesn't seem that way to me.
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No, I don't see it as realistic at all. In fact I typed something to that effect but decided my reply was getting needlessly long and involved because I started two whole other tangents off of that. I'm trying to work on not rambling.
At any rate, all I wanted to do was say that I thought the response to pix's initial post was disproportionate. It is not a crime, or necessesarily even a bad idea, to disagree with me. Many right honorable and upright persons do.
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: I'm not so sure why people are so upset with Pix. I thought her comments, all the way through, were clearly jocular.
I suspect that you find if funny because you aren't either a farmer's son or the child of a professor.
Would you be upset if she had said "ignorant, self-righteous kids of Christians"?
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quote:At any rate, all I wanted to do was say that I thought the response to pix's initial post was disproportionate.
My initial response was probably a little disproportionate, since it's rather an extreme sore spot for me -- being the child of two college professors. However, I do not think, given the following exchange that further responses were disproportionate. She never suggested that she was merely joking and on multiple occasions suggested that she was, in fact, completely serious. She refused to admit that her statement could be offensive and has refused to apologize in the event that it offended -- which it clearly did, not just me but several people.
Personally the whole thing would have been pretty much completely defused for me with a simple "Sorry I offended, it was just a joke." Or even just a "I see how it could be offensive, none was intended." Instead we got: "If you want to continue to take offense, knock yourself out. I'll be busy with the rednecks I offended with this post."
I'm still willing to listen to further clarification Pix, as long as it contains a recognition that that statement could offend, has offended and an apology for that offense. I don't think that's a whole lot to ask for.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: But they've decided what I was trying to say and further clarification is useless at this point.
Pix, Saying that you didn't mean kids of professors were rich, you meant they were snooty doesn't exactly ameliorate the original statement.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Would you be upset if she had said "ignorant, self-righteous kids of Christians"?
Yep, and I might have even responded disproportionately if I was tired, already angry, or otherwise overly sensitive to it. Most days I'd probably ignore it or simply say something mild.
And I'd like to point out the difference in tone between "namby-pamby" or "merlot over cheerios" and "ignorant" or "self-righteous".
Edit: Alcon, I'll grant you there was some snark in that response, but even so, pretty mild, I thought. No worries, though. I'm certainly not angered or offended at this point, and was neither expecting nor seeking any sort of apology from anyone.
And with that, I'm gonna drop it, because this has already become a bigger deal than I intended.
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Yes, snooty is more offensive, but in my opinion more accurate, too. I've certainly observed a dramatic (slight pun intended) correlation between education level and tendency to pretense. Of course that may largely be because *I* tend to pretense when my discourse becomes more scholarly. But I'm far from the only one, and in fact, some people try to emulate scholars entirely by using pretentious language.... and they often think they succeed. No one tries to emulate a farmer by using big words.
I have no doubt that there is more pretense among faculty than among farmers.
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So, it's acceptible to you because you share the prejudice?
edit: It seemed to me like you were saying "Come on guys, she was just kidding." but now it looks like you think that people were overreacting to Pix's more or less accurate statements.
quote:I have no doubt that there is more pretense among faculty than among farmers.
It's the exact opposite. Those who have the knowledge and training at great cost (time, money) do not fall over themselves trying to impress people - they don't have anything to prove. In other words, when someone is pretending, it means they don't have the real thing.
When you have the real thing, you couldn't hide it if you wanted to. It will come out naturally.
Since "farmers" (this is in quotes because I don't believe this is a fair characterization of farmers) are certainly aware of the status and cache of a dandy education but are often not in possession of it, they are much more likely to bluster out a rodomontade of pretentious baloney than someone who is legitimately in possession of that kind of knowledge.
It is those who don't actually belong to an aspirational caste that are desperate to dress themselves with the feathers of it.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: It is those who don't actually belong to an aspirational caste that are desperate to dress themselves with the feathers of it.
I would ammend that to read "It is those who don't actually belong to an aspirational caste or who feel insecure in their place within that caste that are desperate to dress themselves with the feathers of it."
That makes the sentence a little clunky, though, which is a shame--the phrasing in the original version is beautiful.
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I can vouch for the fact that some professors do feel the need to put on airs. This is rare, though with the real "stars".
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quote:Yes, snooty is more offensive, but in my opinion more accurate, too.
More accurate than what? The stereotype that Christians are self-righteous?
In my experience (and I am both a Chrisitian and the child of a college professor), the stereotype that Christians are self-righteous has far broader validity than the stereo-type that children of professors are snooty.
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I'm pretty darn snooty, and I'm fine with that. It's the Merlot part I'm having issues with -- clearly Cheerios should be accompanied by a white wine.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I can vouch for the fact that some professors do feel the need to put on airs. This is rare, though with the real "stars".
I know a lot of professor who are genuine and impressively arrogant, I can't think of any who put on airs. There is a difference.
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We had an English prof (of American nationality) once who my friend described on the evaluation form was so pretentious that she farted with an English accent. She was also pretty insecure. She actually resorted to "You need to accept what I say is correct because I have a PhD!" when I and another friend disagreed with her interpretation of something and backed our interpretation with outside sources (many of whom also had PhDs).
I've never had a prof I respected who put on airs though.
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Not all but many of the ones I am thinking of (right now) have been tenured a long time and haven't published in a while. Also they became professors when there was a sharper status difference between professors and everybody else.
You also get a handful in the "softer" disciplines, I think.
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One quick glance around the internet produces dozens and dozens of people who don't know what they are talking about trying VERY hard to impress.
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There was a guy who lived in the same tiny little town that I grew up in (I'm not sure how many people actually lived there at the time, but less than 200, I'd guess. The town was about a half hour away from the larger town that I usually tell people I'm from) who was referred to as "PhD Laird" by pretty much everbody in town, because it was virtually impossible to have a conversation with him for more than a few minutes without his mentioning that he had a PhD. When I was a kid I thought it was funny, but these days it just seems kind of pathetic.
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It's impossible to make an accurate assessment at this time as to whether or not children of professors are snooty, but I think we have seen some evidence that they're fairly sensitive and easy to rile up Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I think your offense tells us a lot more about you than Pixiest's comments tells us about her.
She (presumably a 'she') was making a comment within a context and using 'stereotypes' to ILLUSTRATE her point. It is very common to overstate a point to make it, we all do it all the time, and most often with an underlying intent at humor. This exaggeration lifts our point out of the morass and makes it more visible. It is a common conversational technique. If you can't tell the difference between an 'example' and an 'illustration', then perhaps a few more years education is in order. Yes, I can see the potential for offense in it, but I see the humorous stereotypical illustration in the context of the discussion far more.
What we are seeing is one of the greatest and most common flaws in Internet communication. It is for someone to be come incensed by some small part of a statement while completely ignoring the statement itself.
This happens to me all the time in discussions, my point is completely ignore while a meaningless turn-of-a-phrase is picked apart for days.
Stereotypes are real, but only as generalization. They will always fall apart when dealing with specifics or individuals, but they are none-the-less true and valid.
For the record, I'm a white-trash, trailer-trash, small town country boy with a Bachelor of Science degree who at one time worked for a supercomputer company; oh yes, and an ex-hippie too. You figure it out. Farmer are stupid, except the one who are smart. Academics are snooty, except the one who aren't. Sailors are drunken hell-raising kids, except the ones who aren't. Cowboys are drunken rednecks who never said anything more intelligent that "Yeeee Haaaaaa!", except for the ones who aren't. All statement true, and yet, all statements false.
What I say is - lighten up.
Sniping at each other does not advance the discussion.
I find school bullying, and irresponsible and unresponsive school administrations A LOT more infuriating then whether some one was offended by the use of a stereotype in an illustration.
posted
"The town was about a half hour away from the larger town that I usually tell people I'm from."
Most people haven't heard of the town I SAY I'm from, either, never mind the "town" I'm actually from. There's got to be a Jeff Foxworthy joke in there, somewhere. Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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