quote:I think we understand each other relatively well. My point was that I have never seen an American for whom that was an autostereotype ("that" being America as the Good Guys, the way you described it). I think it's a common stereotype of "mainstream America" by elitists, such as the two groups you specified.
This is where our experience differs. I've known hundreds of Americans who embrace that stereotype of America. I'm not talking about an impression I've gathered from the media. I'm talking about personal experience with friends, family, church members, people I've canvased on the street, school teachers and students.
A lot of this definitely depends on where you grew up and where you now live. A lot of New Orleanians are not too happy about America because they feel it didn't take care of them while the government threw tons of money at Iraq instead. I haven't been in Baton Rouge long enough to really hang out with a lot of people from here.
In Florida, we were all, um, Floridians, and we loved the space program. "Yay America" applied to Fourth of July parades and fireworks.
-pH
I think that's true. Where you live has a lot to do with it. In Berkeley, it's hard to find anyone who thinks America represents anything other than naked greed and imperialism.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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When I was an American exchange student in Russia, I had a conversation with a Russian friend in which we decided that Americans' greatest flaw AND greatest virtue was impatience. Americans aren't very good at patiently enduring things; we seek to change them instead. This is often a virtue; many things NEED to be changed, many problems need to be fixed, many injustices need to be stopped. (Where the problem comes in, is when we CAN'T fix something and HAVE to endure it.)
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About Americans- one of my favourite journalists wrote once that he likes Americans, because they are the only nation with a vision. There is some truth in that... This is complementary, I think, with Yozhik's impatience...
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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American autos are stereotypically enormous gas guzzlers. They aren't particularly reliable and wear out fast.
Polish Autos: Are there any autos made in poland? I'd expect them to be small, boxy, slow, rusty and held together with bailing wire.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Here is one more autostereotype of Americans, I even include myself in this one.
Americans love a bargain. We are suckers for anything marked 40% off. Hence the proliferation of outlet stores, bargain basements, big box stores and yard sales. This isn't something that is limited to any particular class or race in America. It certainly isn't limited to the poor. Even the wealthy can't resist a two for one sale.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Maybe it is not exactly a post for this thread, but I dont want to start a new one. I was planning to make a trip to the USA with my sister next year. We both speak English quite well so its not a problem. The problem, obviously, is money. We wanted to make a trip for 3 maybe 4 weeks with a car. So- 1. Is it better (cheaper) to buy an old one (what about insurance) or to rent one? 2. How expesive is life, I mean, if we lived in motels? How much does a night cost? 30$? 40$? How much does a bottle of milk cost, and a loaf of... no, you dont have bread in America A pizza? 3. Is it better to visit east or west? Or middle, maybe? What is worth visiting (Except for the cities?)
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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If you're only driving, I suggest picking a section of the country - for instance, the West coast or the East coast. If I were only driving for three weeks, I'd consider the East coast and parts of the South for number of cities and history, or else the West coast and parts of the Rocky mountains for the scenery and wilderness. Considering you're from Europe, I'd go for the West coast and the Rockies - there's nothinglikeUtah in Europe, I don't think.
Don't visit the middle. There's good stuff in the middle - especially Texas - but it is too far apart to try and enjoy all in one trip. You'll spend more time traveling than doing anything else.
For two people, the hotel price is skewing low unless you stay in the absolute cheapest flophouses. Especially in California or on the East coast, it will be more - at least $25 more unless you do some insane planning ahead of time.
Between buying and renting...depends on how much planning you have to do and how much time you're willing to spend with it, or whether you have someone in the States to take care of things for you. Unless you want to spend at least three-four days of your vacation looking for and getting rid of the car, renting will be cheaper. You don't want to spend your vacation running around getting things registered and transferred - add in all the hotel and time and insurance and registration fees and probable complications, and renting would be easier. Use Priceline or Hotwire to get a cheap tiny rental. Buying is either hassle-free or it is cheap, but it is not both.
Also, are you sure you could drive legally? I've never looked into it, but I don't think a European driver's license is transferable to the States - you may not be legal to drive at all unless you do some stuff beforehand.
You're probably better off all the way around getting a bus pass - I think you can a Greyhound pass for a month that gives you unlimited rides.
---
General advice for Europeans: things are farther apart than you think. It is farther from Seattle to Los Angeles than it is from London to Warsaw. Texas is farther across than France is. You could drive from Warsaw to Paris faster than you could drive from Boston to Atlanta.
posted
You know its always been my dream to go in my own car and listen to "Are you going to San Francisco" and so on, if you know what I mean. That's why I want to rent a car (I see it's seems to be too much trouble to buy one). That is also a reason we changed our mind and dont want to travel east-west or the other way around.
What I'd like to see? I want to have a clear mind, that when I come back I wont hear: You've been to the west coast and havent seen...?! Id like to do some travelling as well, always wanted that.
How much would I need? Presuming we'll but some souvenirs, not the cheapest, but not fancy food either? 5000$ apiece? I have no-one in the US to help me with anything...
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The timing is so good for travelling these days, you know. Dollar in Poland costs 2,2, it used to cost 4,0 about 5 years ago. You have very cheap petrol. Now or never Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Does the $5000 include air fare? Then that should be enough for four weeks on the West Coast with enough to spare that you can get some cool souvenirs.
There are many, many Hatrackers in California, Oregon and Utah. If you're planning a West coast/Rocky mountain trip and have an idea of what you want to see, I'd start a thread, ask for suggestions, and start planning. They'll probably even organize a party or two for you, especially in Los Angeles.
Scenery, history, cultural things, all of the above?
For the West coast/Rocky mountains trip: Los Angeles Disneyland - just a day will do San Francisco - at least two and maybe three days minimum Monterey Bay Aquarium and nearby tidal pools Las Vegas Redwood forest Zion's National park Grand Canyon Portland, Oregon Seattle with the ferry boats and the Experience Music Project
I have to throw in: Salt Lake City Mesa Verde near the Four Corners An Indian reservation in New Mexico or Arizona where you can buy overpriced native jewelry and possibly see some dancing
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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If you are interested in seeing nature, go west and hit as many national parks as you can. You can buy an annual pass for ~$50 that will get you into all the parks. While there are many scenic places that aren't in the parks, the park system is a great start for someone who doesn't know there way around. Most of the best places are in the parks, they are all on the maps and they have great staff who can direct you to what to see.
Its usually possible to find inexpensive hotels (motel 6, super 8 etc.) near the parks but they may be crowded in summer if you don't have reservations. Americans may scowl at motel 6 but its not bad by European standards, you will have a large room with a private bath and clean sheets. Hostels and budget hotels with shared bathrooms are very uncommon in the US. If you want to go budget, bring a tent and sleeping bags and camp which is usually under $10 per group. If you are adventurous, they are many places where you can legally camp for free.
The greyhound option isn't a good one if you choose the national park tour since the greyhound buses generally don't go into the national parks and most of the parks have no public transportation. If you make reservations ahead of time you can rent a car for a month for as little as $500 (insurance not included). Car rentals prices are much higher if you don't pick it up and drop it off in the same place. So if you were to pick up a car in New York and try to drop it off in LA after crossing the country, you'd pay a much higher price. I'm told that if you rent prepaid from Europe you can get insurance bundled with the car for cheap. If you add insurance in the US it will double the price of renting (or more). Be sure to factor in the cost of gas which is no longer negligible in the states.
If you want to see cities, do the east coast. In that case greyhound is a good option. Rental may actually be cheaper than two bus passes but if you add in gas, parking in the cities and such its likely to be far more expensive. Hotels near the downtown of most major US cities are very expensive. You will be hard pressed to find anything for under $100/night unless you are willing to stay quite far from downtown.
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For the Indian jewelry, I have heard that you can buy it in New Mexico and sell it for double in Europe. So, it might not be so overpriced. Buying on the reservation is usually a lot cheaper. I saw a piece similar to mine at a mall and it was like 3 times more then what I had paid on the reservation and mine was better quality. Also, you have to watch out for fake Indian jewelry. There is a town in some third world country that renamed themselved Zuni, so they can legally put "Made in Zuni" on their pieces. For me, the big issue is that they don't use the metals they claim to, but still charge as though they are.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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In answer to your question about food prices, it varies quite a bit depending in what region of the country you're in, I think. In SW Ohio, a gallon of milk is currently around $3, I think (but I don't buy a lot of milk, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if someone were to correct me). The price of pizza varies quite a bit, even within a particular city. The cheapest place with edible pizza that I've found in Dayton is $4 for a 10 inch cheese pizza, but my favorite place is more in the neighborhood of $15 for the same thing, and there are certainly more expensive places. When I go out for lunch, I generally end up spending about $10.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I have to start collecting money then. To be honest I thought that food is a bit cheaper, but I see its the same as it is in Poland.
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: You have very cheap petrol. Now or never
Out of curiosity, how much does it cost in Poland?
A gallon of petrol in Poland costs exactly 7,8 dollars if I counted correctly, and I belive I did. How much is it in the US?
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:They'll probably even organize a party or two for you, especially in Los Angeles.
Any excuse for a shinda!
And you can too get bread here-- we have several European-style bakeries in my area. (French, German, and several Armenian bakeries in a 10-minute radius from my house, off the top of my head.) You just have to know where to look. (Trader Joe's also has some pretty darned good bread.)
Food prices, as mentioned, will vary with the region. They are also going up. You're going to want to hit Farmer's Markets if you can for produce, I know you European types aren't particularly used to or fond of our anemic genetically engineered fruits and veggies.
And yeah, the cheapest motel I've EVER met in SoCal is $45/night. That's before taxes and such. I usually count on a BARE MINIMUM of $70/night average including taxes and such. Of course, Jatraqueros are often willing to provide lodging if they like you. (I'd offer our couch but, well, it's in use-- our four-year-old took our bedroom and we're sleeping on the couch next to the baby.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Oh, and renting a car will be significantly cheaper than buying. If you buy you're not only paying the price of the car, but also title and registration fees (which will be tricky without a permanent U.S. address), etc., etc.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Plus, there's a really nice hostel in downtown Chicago that's only about $30 a night (or that's what it was when I stayed there in 2005).
KQ's right about bread, farmer's markets, and Trader Joe's (though in many parts of the country farmer's markets are seasonal affairs). She's also right about forum-folk likely being willing to put you up. If by some mischance you end up in Southwestern Ohio, I've got a couch and an air mattress that you guys would be welcome to crash on for a couple of nights.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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If you come to Washington D.C. and are willing to sleep on mattresses in the living room, you're welcome to stay with me.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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They have mountains near the east coast, too. And Disney World. And the Fountain of Youth...and, um, whatever they have up in them thar cold New England states.
posted
A subscriber to the "tilted contenent" theory of population drift are we? Anything that is loose and rattling around will eventually end up in Los Angeles.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Personally I'd recommend a trip to Boston and environs. I had a blast being reminded of the shortcomings of my imperial ancestors
Cali-forn-I-A is wierd but fun. I only wish I'd been a Jatraquero when I was there, I'm sure it would have been even more fun.
A friend of mine did a fly-drive holiday up the west coast of the the US over two weeks and had a great time. She even made some spending money from the balckjack tables in Las Vegas, but she *is* part cylon calculating machine.
Have a great time in the US - despite the image you may have from the media, 100% of the Americans I have met on my travels have been friendly, helpful and only too eager to join in the adventure.
Posts: 892 | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by pH: They have mountains near the east coast, too. And Disney World. And the Fountain of Youth...and, um, whatever they have up in them thar cold New England states.
Also, awesome beaches.
-pH
The things they call mountains in the east, barely qualify as hills in the west.
Here is my recommendation. Take a train to Berlin and then fly airberlin direct to San Francisco. Spend a couple days in San Francisco (easily the most interesting city west of the Mississippi) then rent a car and head north up the Pacific Coast highway. Stop in Redwood National Park. Make your way up the coast to Seattle. Definitely stop at Mt. Rainier. The Olympic National Park is terrific too, especially the rain forest but you really need to hike to see it. From Seattle head west to Glacier National Park and then swing south through Yellowstone and Grand Teton. Continue heading south through Salt Lake, which isn't really worth seeing but there are a bunch of jatraqueros there and its on the way to spectacular National Parks to the south. Bryce Canyon, Zion National Park and the north rim of the Grand Canyon are must see locations. There are many other parks in the area and all are worth visiting, Mesa Verda and Rocky Mountain National parks are great but they are a bit of a detour if you are trying to loop back the SF. From north rim of the Grand Canyon, head on to Las Vegas.
From Las Vegas you swing south to the LA area, spend a day at Disney Land, go to the beach, and see KQ and rivka, or you could turn north and go through Sequoia, Kings Canyon and Yosemite National Parks. I'd definitely do the parks but then I find Disneyland in midsummer is a form of inhuman torture (really long lines). You might be able to squeeze in both but before getting back to SF for your flight but it would be very rushed.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Thanks Rabbit, that is quite a plan. I got a year, but with so many plans of yours (Hatrackers) I need to start choosing the best one right now or I wont make it in time. Are KQ and rivka on the beach all the time?
And by the way- how do you pronounce Yosemite? Is it Yos-eh-might or Yos-eh-mitty or else?
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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LOL! I wish I lived on the beach! (Well, not really. I'm a mountain lover more than a beach lover-- my dad's a beach lover. But I like the beach.)
No, rivka and I (and my family) are just the ones that are usually able to make ourselves available to Jatraqueros passing through. You may or may not, depending on their schedules, also manage to get hold of the Meeses (Papa Moose, Mama Squirrel, and their adorable children), LadyDove, and assorted other people who live within a two hours' drive.
Yosemite is usually pronounced either Yoh-ZEH-mit-ee or Yo-ZEH-mit-ay.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Yeah, but then you'd have all sorts of snotty celebrity riffraff for neighbors.
I agree on the western US being a good choice.
When I lived near San Francisco, my Japanese relations came out to visit from Nagoya, and we wished that we could have shown them around where we had been living in Omaha. Just about every Japanese tourist, when seeing the US, will croon in amazement, "Soooo....Biiiiiiig!"
When I've gone to Yellowstone, Arches, Yosemite, etc., the places were choc-a-bloc with Euro tourists, so they must appeal.
About stereotypes--from what I can tell, most Americans agree that the country was founded primarily on Judeo-Christian principles, by primarily Judeo-Christian people. The split is in how people feel about that.
IMAO, nationality is a matter of what language your kids speak and what you eat at breakfast. Which means the US is a series of smaller nations. When I moved from Washington state to Biloxi, Mississippi, I felt like I'd moved to an entirely different country. I think Canada would have been more familiar.
I grew up military and from my personal experience (born in DC, lived in Omaha and San Francisco, then high school in the mountain states, married here in Pacific northwest)--
People in the East tend to be more like Europeans, and there are older buildings there. The West doesn't have old buildings, except for Spanish missions, the Winchester mansion, and Hopi puebloes. In the West, "antique" means "has two coats of paint". Forget about the buildings and look at the national parks.
The crazy and rich, sometimes both at once, are on the coasts. The middle is practically empty and very cheap as a result.
The East is more formal, which you may find either more polite, or just snootier. It's pretty in the fall, but don't bother in the summer, unless you're going to the beach South Carolina or something.
Florida is fun but if you go to Orlando the local drinking water is disgusting; buy bottled.
If you go to the Gulf Coast, eat shrimp.
Yellowstone is nice and crowded in the summer. I think the best bookings are in West Yellowstone, but I'm a cheapo.
California is pretty, but people there both believe heartily in tolerance and as a group don't always practice it. You'll get both ends of the stick, being both white AND foriegn.
Montana is pretty, but bulging with Californian carpetbaggers, which means the locals are grumpy because they can't buy houses, but are eating really good food now. (the best restuarants in the world, IMAO, are in CA).
The mountain states (Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Colorado) are pretty, especially if you're into mountains and deserts. Some are, some aren't.
People in the middle and in mountain states are generally very friendly. The smaller the town, and the more lost you look, the more people will take you on as a personal cause and try to help.
People will seem friendly in the South, but aren't really. Or, some are, but others aren't, and are so good at smiling anyway, that you can't tell the difference. :)If that doesn't bother you, have fun there, but don't go in summertime if you can help it. (it's really hot and muggy)
I don't know what your feelings on American religion are; my Euro friends thought I was quaint for being a "modern day Puritan" and so they had a passing interest in seeing some Amish people. If you do too, Amish Central is in Pennsylvania, but there are Amish/Mennonite/Hutterite groups all over the country.
You will find a lot of bargain-shopping in the US. Most of the bargain-shopping I've done has been in port cities like San Fran, Seattle and Orlando. I presume that it's Germans, foreign and domestic, that are searching for the best deals. (I can say that. I'm part German.)
There's my autostereotypes; hope your trip in America is fun.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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My brother had some Polish friends when we lived in San Francisco. They were girls, and nice, and very strong! and pretty, in a golden skinned, blue-eyed way.
Unlike some of my other European acquaintances, my Polish friends don't think that religious Americans are crazy by definition. It's hard not to think better of Poles, since they're thinking better of ME.
It's hard to characterize Americans, since a lot of us think that being American means getting to define yourself. Selecting an autostereotype is as hard as trying to organize an Anarchists' Club meeting.
In small town America, if you are honest, smile and shake hands firmly with the men, then you'll generally get by.
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When I hear "Polish" I think of Reverse Polish Notation, which is a way to write down math problems. Some calculators (notably HP's) use RPN. If I wanted to add 5 and 6, I would press 5, enter, 6, plus instead of 5, plus, 6, equals.
I also think of Poland as a country that got a raw deal in World War II and its aftermath. I know that a large percentage of its Jewish population was killed or forced out. I'm under the impression that Poland is strongly Roman Catholic, but that might just be because of Pope John Paul II.
If you'd like to see a wide range of outdoor scenery and climates, the Pacific Northwest (Oregon and Washington, on the West Coast) is a good option, in my biased opinion. We have beaches, forests, mountains, lakes, high desert, and river valleys. Granted, the beaches here are not like Hawaii or California. You probably don't want to go swimming in the ocean here without a wetsuit to keep you warm.
What sort of experience are you looking for? Cultural? Historical? Scenery? Do you want to spend your time seeing things or doing things, or some of both? Do you want to see a whole bunch of things or settle down for a few weeks and experience what it's like to live here?
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sachiko: It's hard to characterize Americans, since a lot of us think that being American means getting to define yourself. Selecting an autostereotype is as hard as trying to organize an Anarchists' Club meeting.
I have to write it down somewhere. Im not mocking you, it seems like you got a point here. A strong one.
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: What sort of experience are you looking for? Cultural? Historical? Scenery? Do you want to spend your time seeing things or doing things, or some of both? Do you want to see a whole bunch of things or settle down for a few weeks and experience what it's like to live here?
I definitly dont want to settle down- our plans with my sis are to travel, see as many things as possible. I suppose it means seeing thing, not doing thing, but Im not quite sure what you mean by doing? If you mean canoe drafting- then no, we dont want to (money). I would love to see some scenery maybe Zion, Nevada NPs, but my sis probably prefers cities, so that's culture I think. And about historical- yeah, but what?
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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You and your sister should be aware that most US cities don't have much to see, at least compared to European cities. Most US cities suffer from urban sprawl. The middle class has moved out to the suburbs leaving the cities centers to decay. The suburbs are a waste land of strip malls and cookie cutter neighborhoods while the city centers are a mix of business zones with high rise office buildings and decaying crime ridden ghettos. There is very little in the way of public art and architecture, museums are scarce (by European standards), and most cities have little history to explore.
There are some exceptions, in the west San Francisco is great and Seattle is alright. Some people might add Las Vegas to that list, but its more of a Disneyland for adults than a city.
In the Eastern half of the country, New York, Boston, Washington DC and Chicago are all interesting cities worth visiting. I've spent time in many of the other cities on business and at international conferences. While many of them have a few interesting spots and nice people, I can't think of any others that are really worth visiting on vacation unless you are going to see friends.
The big problem with going to see US cities, even the most interesting US cities, is expense. What the cities have to offer, museums, theater, music, restaurants, and so forth is all expensive.
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