posted
Here is a link to something that was brought to my attention in a YouTube video.
Apparently a 13 year old girl who continually represents herself as older (18 or 19) has had sex with two men (separately) and both men have gone to prison.
In cases such as this, not knowing the girls age or having the girl represent herself as 'of age' is no defense. If she was underage, then you are guilty.
Read the article before you comment.
In my view, this girl seems reckless. In my view, she is engaged in entrapment and fraud.
To what extent is a man or woman obligated to verify the age of their partner? Do you need to see a drivers license? Do you need to see a birth certificate? And even if you need to, how many of you do?
This girl is still running around, staying out late, partying, her false MySpace page is still up, and presumably she is still entrapping men.
To what extent can this girl be held accountable? What message is the world sending her? How many lives will she ruin before someone steps in?
posted
No matter how mature a young girl "looks", I've found that spending some time talking to them in person reveals their "actual immaturity" pretty clearly (even if it doesn't reveal their actual age).
quote:Williams said Dean picked him up on the street and after a few conversations they had sex.
These men wanted anonymous sex with a willing partner and they got it. That kind of behavior carries certain risks and in this case, it came back to bite them. They get no sympathy from me.
The underage girl seems to have issues of her own, one of which is a father who doesn't have the b*lls to stand up to his 13 yo daughter and set some limits on her behavior.
He could start now, but I fear it's probably too late to have a favorable impact on her life.
posted
DSH: Lots of 18+ people act as though they're 13.
While I don't hold these men blameless, they were certainly manipulated. If anything, the girl should be guilty of conspiracy to commit statutory rape, if such a thing exists, since she was the only one who clearly knew that she was encouraging two people to engage in criminal activity.
The guys may or may not have been sleazy, but it's not illegal to have sex with a random of-age person, or a significant portion of the American population would be in jail.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I'm with DSH. When a man comes to you and says, "Hey, how old is your daughter, anyway?" the appropriate response isn't, "It's not her fault, put him in jail." The guy tried to make it right, and he was punished for it. That's a terrible message to send.
I can respect the law's position, though. If "I didn't know" was a valid defense, no one would ever know how old their partner was.
In this case, it could be shown that she deliberately misrepresented herself. If the law is anything resembling just, he should be able to go after her for some kind of fraud.
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posted
As so often, I'm reminded of the wisdom of Chris Rock: If a girl tells you she's twenty, and looks sixteen, she's twelve.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DSH: No matter how mature a young girl "looks", I've found that spending some time talking to them in person reveals their "actual immaturity" pretty clearly (even if it doesn't reveal their actual age).
I have to disagree. It's certainly possible, I'd say likely, that in most cases you are correct. But that is by no means a certainty. My girlfriend was 13 when we first met. I'm 4 years older than her. I knew her for quite a while before I found out how old she was. In that case, she didn't mislead me, and we certainly didn't have sex, but nevertheless. She did not look or act like my impression of a thirteen year old would.
On topic: I think the only real problem I have with this particular situation, however, is that the first man in question (assuming the article, and his side of things, is accurate) really was clearly mislead, and when he discovered the truth he did his best to resolve the situation. I think that jumping into semi-anonymous sex is never a good idea, and he's certainly guilty of bad judgment in that regard. But I think a year in jail, many years of probation, and no doubt getting saddled with a sex offender label seems a pretty steep price to pay for that lapse. The law is designed to protect girls from predators, and I'm just not sure that's what's being done in this case.
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posted
I love the jailbait paradox. It's like legal entrapment, and I guarantee that some girls have done this with malicious intent.
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posted
I'm all for the guys going to jail (partly because I find pre-marital sex as morally repugnant as those who find underage sex the same). I just wish the girl was punished for fraud. By the way "the girl should be guilty of conspiracy to commit statutory rape" very much exists. Against popular belief, Warren Jeffs of the FLDS was found guilty of something very similar to this and NOT for having sex with underage girls himself.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Thanks for the perspective. I'm not so concerned that the guy went to jail, but on the other hand, he didn't intensionally commit an illegal act, or at least, no one that he thought was illegal.
What bothers me far more is the predatory aspect of this girls actions. From the article, it seems that she sought out and picked up this guy, and likely the first guy too. She is not an innocent victim; she was not seduced, tricked, coerced, intimidated, or deceived. She knew what she was doing, knew it was illegal, and did so with willful intent.
It bothers me that this predator is out on the streets entrapping otherwise innocent guys.
Unless someone intervenes on her behalf, she is most certainly in for a dark and troubled life. So, it is not just that she is entrapping guys, it is also that she is ruining her own life while those with authority stand by and do nothing.
As someone else points out, the law is intended to protect underage girls (usually) from over-age predators. In this case, however, it is the girl that is a willful and knowing predator.
How many men's lives must she ruin in the 5 years before she turns 18 before some sees the problem?
Admittedly, this is a very tricky case. We can't really ignore a man who has sex with an underage girl. But on the other hand, in this specific case, we also shouldn't ignore that the girl had a large hand in causing the problem, and no one seems to be acknowledging that.
It's not so much that she did it; it is more the fact that everyone seems to be ignoring it.
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: I got a story about extremely expensive coffee.
Ditto. I feel like I'd give it a try. It's not everyday you get an opportunity to drink 15 dollar coffee.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
The related video is on the same page as the article linked in the OP. Edit: It's also listed in the related videos below the one about the coffee.
And for the record, I can't stand coffee. But $15 for a cup? That coffee better do more than jump start my day. I'd expect a granted wish or three at least.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I saw the video, and agree she doesn't look 13.
I agree she is behaving irresponsibly and should suffer some consequences for what she has done.
I do not think her lies in any way excuse the actions of the two men. I presume they are not unaware of the law, and they broke it - intentionally or not.
You want to not get caught in a trap like this? Well, don't have sex with people you barely know. Spending any amount of time with her would have revealed pretty quickly how old she was, I would think.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I would think her parents should bear SOME responsibility, particularly after the first one. She still stays out late at night... at thirteen years old. This is clearly risky behavior, and they should be able to put some sort of stop to it.
SOMEONE is supposed to be responsible for her behavior.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Statutory rape laws are meant to protect a younger person who doesn't understand the meanings and consequences of their actions from the predatory actions of an older person who does understand those meanings and consequences.
It isn't clear that the spirit of the law is being upheld here.
ADD: I would also note that it isn't morality that the law is meant to uphold in this instance; it's supposed to prevent children from having their lives screwed up by adult behavior they aren't ready for.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I would argue that our overall culture is predisposing children to sexual behavior. Victoria's Secret comes immediately to mind, along with Madonna, Rihanna, Fergie, etc.
I think of the quote from John Adams: "“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
The idea here is that society must retain a sense of propriety, which is independent of government censorship. There's a fine balance between the uptight and prudish values of the puritans and Victorians, versus the hedonism that's allowed today in the name of the first amendment. I know a lot of people will disagree, but I feel that abuse of the first amendment needs to be reigned in. We need a little censorship, particularly with regards to sexuality in commercialism.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I feel bad for the two guys, even though it seems nobody else here does. I don't think they deserve 5 years in jail. Oh well. Laws are laws.
A spiteful student accused one of my favorite teachers of getting her drunk and having sex with her. He was shamed, forced to resign, move away, and in the end he was found completely innocent.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Launchywiggin, the video said one year in jail for the most recent guy, five years probation.
quote:A spiteful student accused one of my favorite teachers of getting her drunk and having sex with her. He was shamed, forced to resign, move away, and in the end he was found completely innocent.
Stories like this scare me as a future teacher...I already have college professors warning me never to be alone with a student, have my door open if I'm working with a student individually, etc.
I mean, I have no intention of ever doing anything inappropriate with a student, but it's important that you don't even allow the appearance of impropriety.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:I'm all for the guys going to jail (partly because I find pre-marital sex as morally repugnant as those who find underage sex the same)
You find pre-marital sex as repulsive an act as I would consider a 25 year old schtupping a 13 year old?
And part of your acceptance of their prison term is, apparently, inherently a desire to see sex outside of marriage punished?
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