posted
I think OSC is wrong in thinking Batman made a moral choice to save Dent over Rachel. He clearly tells Gordon on his way out that he's going after Rachel. He has no reason to lie, because this would simply prevent Gordon's having any chance at saving the other person. I think we're supposed to understand that the Joker, having already seen Batman choose Rachel by jumping out the window after her while he was threatening Dent, knows he will choose her again. He thus gives Batman the two addresses in reverse. Because the whole point of this exercise to the Joker is not to kill Dent, but to try to drive him crazy. For that Dent needs to survive.
So does Batman's choice render him any less of a hero?
posted
I can't help thinking that's sort of warped morality though.
"Sorry, love of my life, woman I grew up with, BUT it would be better for Gotham if I saved Harvey instead of you."
fact is, don't they both do the same job? Harvey just gets more props though, but Rachel wants justice too.
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posted
orlox: It's a comment on a review that has spoilers. There will be spoilers in the comment, that's pretty clear. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Well, reading a thread criticizing an article you haven't read is a bit weird, don't you think?
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Nah, I do it all the time. Then I sometimes go read the original article if the fuss is interesting. I read Hatrack threads all the time because the forum is bookmarked, but I don't normally think to check other parts of the site.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I don't think choosing Dent is a warped morality. It's a straightforward morality that is nonetheless not one that is easily followed by people with close personal relationships. I continue to believe Batman meant to save Dent; it's the only thing that fits with the point of the movie. (I'm impervious to evidence, I think it was just planted there to mollify audience members of test screenings who were outraged that Batman wouldn't try to save the girl like they've been trained to expect by decades of romanticized entertainment. )
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
See, that to me is something else. I'll read a movie review for something I'll see, sometimes even if it has spoilers. Reading the review takes comparatively little time and it lets me decide whether I'd like to see it or not. Reading a critique of a review, of comparable size, without reading the review first, seems useless; if I see a thread like this before reading the review, I'll go read the review first.
Not that it matters if you read this thread first. But I wouldn't be mad to see the same spoilers in here as in the original review, even without warning. I doubt that a thread like this could be written without using spoilers anyway; how can you talk about misunderstanding something without mentioning that something?
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:I don't think choosing Dent is a warped morality. It's a straightforward morality that is nonetheless not one that is easily followed by people with close personal relationships.
I think it make the story great if he did, but then why not have a shot of Wayne attending Dawes funeral, grimacing condolences. I thought the Joker switched the addresses.
From the Review:
quote:And this is the morally right choice. It is exactly the choice that parents make when they send their children off to war, or into the police force or the fire department. If anything, the love of parents for children is greater than the love mates have for each other. Yet, when the needs of the overall society -- the city, the nation -- require it, parents make the choice to permit it, even to honor and embrace letting their children go into harm's way.
I also thought - for separate reasons that I can't quote from memory - that there was a clear statement that the Joker switched the addresses.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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[QUOTE]And this is the morally right choice. It is exactly the choice that parents make when they send their children off to war, or into the police force or the fire department. If anything, the love of parents for children is greater than the love mates have for each other. Yet, when the needs of the overall society -- the city, the nation -- require it, parents make the choice to permit it, even to honor and embrace letting their children go into harm's way.
This is spot on.
I still think that's a bit warped... I'd rather go to war myself then let any future child of mine do that... Them being on the police force or being a fire fighter, slightly different thing, somewhat simular. But it's not just the risk of dying in the war, it can really take a toll on a person's mind and soul. I think it's MORE moral to make the sacrifice yourself then to ask them to do that. Kamikaze soldiers come to mind.
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posted
I've seen it twice, and if I'm remembering correctly, when Gordon and Batman ran out the door, Gordon said, "Who are you going after?" And the immediate response was, "Rachel." Remember, in the interrogation scene, it comes out that Joker knows that Batman at least has a thing for Rachel. It would be like him (the Joker) to switch who's at which address--agent of chaos and all that.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
My apologies to anyone I spoiled. I guess I assumed you wouldn't read this if you hadn't already seen the movie and read OSC's article to which I was responding. I'll be more careful in future.
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posted
That doesn't mean the alternative is better, just because you're unable to follow the better choice.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:It is exactly the choice that parents make when they send their children off to war, or into the police force or the fire department.
This is not entirely up to the parents, and it isn't an equivalent analogy. Rachel wasn't asked if she was willing to be sacrificed.
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