quote:Does the fact that he is himself a lawyer not cut any ice for you?
It's the fact that he is a lawyer, and that I therefore have a relative certainty about how he's using certain words in certain statements he's made, that make me fear his judicial appointments.
quote:What about his appointments could be potentially damaging, to your mind?
The obvious issue is abortion, but there's much more too it than that. I'm not inclined to go into details at the moment. I was simply responding to CT's question.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:I would really like to read an explanation of just what someone who is seriously perturbed by Obama actually thinks will happen in his four-year term as Presidency. What is it that you seriously think has a good chance of happening that should generally be feared?
The only thing I actually fear about an Obama presidency is his judicial appointments.
I thought of you, and I figured that would be your response. (This is not in a negative way, Dagonee -- purely with appreciation and affection.) That already made sense to me, for what it's worth, but I'm glad you chimed in, too.
I figured you'd commit to being concerned about his judicial appointments even if the actual number of intended abortions went down during his term, because I figured the longlasting judicial shift in principles would concern you. Again, that made sense to me, given what we've already discussed between us.
Other things I hear don't make as much sense to me, but I can't tell if I'm misreading people, or misreading the situation, or something.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Wendybird: [QB] While it is commendable to not judge people and to show respect for others beliefs it is a different matter entirely to continue a relationship with someone over many years with which you have fundamental belief differences. Look at your close friends - those you spend the most time with tend to be those you have the most in common with...
What does that mean? Could you share specifics about what you are worried might really happen?
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quote:Originally posted by Wendybird: While it is commendable to not judge people and to show respect for others beliefs it is a different matter entirely to continue a relationship with someone over many years with which you have fundamental belief differences. Look at your close friends - those you spend the most time with tend to be those you have the most in common with...
That said...
Is it too late to throw them both out and start over
That is not true for me. Most of the people I associate with share similar political views, but that is because I live in a very "blue" city in a very "blue" county in a very "blue" state and I work at a university. But I have very close relationships with people who disagree with me.
I also have lots of friends and loved ones who differ with me on religious matters - also pretty fundamental. There is a whole range of things that you can have in common with someone without agreeing with them on, for example, middle east policy.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Does the fact that he is himself a lawyer not cut any ice for you? What about his appointments could be potentially damaging, to your mind?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that since Obama is a lawyer his appointments would always be the correct ones to make?
Posts: 45 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:While it is commendable to not judge people and to show respect for others beliefs it is a different matter entirely to continue a relationship with someone over many years with which you have fundamental belief differences. Look at your close friends - those you spend the most time with tend to be those you have the most in common with...
As a liberal atheist in Utah, I have fundamental belief differences with *most* of the people that I spend most of my time with, including family, friends, and coworkers. It seems to work out OK and I would hope that it wouldn't some day be used against me or them.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Does the fact that he is himself a lawyer not cut any ice for you? What about his appointments could be potentially damaging, to your mind?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that since Obama is a lawyer his appointments would always be the correct ones to make?
No, but as a lawyer, and as a specialist (isn't he?) in constitutional law, I'd argue that he probably had at least come across the distinction between what he believes is right, and the law. That's not something I would say of Bush, and not something I would necessarily say about McCain either.
Not to say you should trust him because he is a lawyer- I just wanted to know if Dag felt that any political or ideological move Obama might be tempted to make could be tempered by his education, which included studies in ethics. Now, The Clintons are lawyers, and the answer for them would *probably* be no.
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quote:Originally posted by Wendybird: While it is commendable to not judge people and to show respect for others beliefs it is a different matter entirely to continue a relationship with someone over many years with which you have fundamental belief differences. Look at your close friends - those you spend the most time with tend to be those you have the most in common with...
This is not true for me. I have numerous friends with widely varying political, religious, cultural, ethical and lifestyle values. Some of them have been close friends for decades despite our disagreements on vary fundamental issues.
When I was a teenager, a respected teacher of mine told me that one good way to assess whether you were developing true Christ like love was to look at your friends. If your friends all looked like you, thought like you and acted like you then all you really knew how to love was yourself. The more diversity you found in your friends in terms of age, culture, values, etc -- the more you were learning to see and love people as God sees them and loves them. I have tried to put this into practice and seek to find common ground that allows me to enjoy and appreciate the company of people who are very different from me.
For that reason, I see it as a character strength when people associate and befriend themselves with people who they disagree with and not as evidence that they are hypocritical or hiding their true beliefs. I suppose the latter could be true but I remember that Jesus was criticized for being friends with "sinners". If I am in err, I vastly prefer to err in having presumed people were better than they really are than worse.
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posted
(Wendybird, I'm worried that my quoting you and asking for clarification will come across as a challenge to your right to hold your view. That isn't what I intend at all. I am just unclear as to what a lot of people are thinking -- and again, it may well be something I fail to bring to the table. That's happened before, and it will happen again, I'm sure.)
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posted
Has anyone here associated and befriended himself or herself with a person who espouses racist beliefs? Do you see that as a character "strength" or "weakness"?
Posts: 195 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by David G: Has anyone here associated and befriended himself or herself with a person who espouses racist beliefs? Do you see that as a character "strength" or "weakness"?
Sure. Not KKK members or anything, but certainly people who hold certain ideas about people who are of a different race. In some cases, we get into interesting discussions, in some cases (often with people of an older generation) I just focus on the things I like about that person.
Do you mean a strength or weakness in me or in them? I think it is often edifying for me. It is not my favorite trait in another person.
Honestly, if I could only be friends with perfect people, I would be so lonely!
CT, I started my reply to Wendybird's post before I even saw yours. Not your fault.
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quote:Originally posted by David G: Has anyone here associated and befriended himself or herself with a person who espouses racist beliefs? Do you see that as a character "strength" or "weakness"?
Not that I'm aware of, but I wouldn't consider that a deal breaker, depending on the nature of the racism. I am friends with a number of people that I consider to be bigoted in one respect or another.
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quote:Originally posted by David G: Has anyone here associated and befriended himself or herself with a person who espouses racist beliefs? Do you see that as a character "strength" or "weakness"?
Yes. One of my older colleagues at MSU occasionally expressed shockingly racist views, but I respected him on many other issues and enjoyed his company and mourned his death.
My grandfather, who I loved dearly, and who was kind and giving and would never have mistreated another human held some astonishingly racist views.
Yes, I consider racism to be a character flaw but if I couldn't befriend people who had character flaws, I wouldn't have any friends.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Sure. Not KKK members or anything, but certainly people who hold certain ideas about people who are of a different race. In some cases, we get into interesting discussions, in some cases (often with people of an older generation) I just focus on the things I like about that person.
Certainly for me, as well, with persons of older generations. And it has been delightful to watch some of them change their perspectives, some times of which they themselves attribute to being around younger people.
For me, this was often unavoidable. Family, the elderly couple next door in the duplex, etc.
quote:CT, I started my reply to Wendybird's post before I even saw yours. Not your fault.
Oh, not at all. I came back and wrote my addendum without reading yours, as well. I was feeling bad because I hadn't seen Wendybird post in awhile, and I really was asking the question generally.
I think it's fine to talk about this amongst ourselves, good, even. As the person who posed the initial question, I just wanted to be extra careful.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Wendybird: While it is commendable to not judge people and to show respect for others beliefs it is a different matter entirely to continue a relationship with someone over many years with which you have fundamental belief differences. Look at your close friends - those you spend the most time with tend to be those you have the most in common with...
I disagree. Yes, I have many friends who I agree with politically and religiously. But I also have friends (and even family members!) who I agree with religiously but not politically, or the reverse, or even have profound disagreements with in both areas.
I find the idea that one couldn't "continue a relationship with someone over many years with which you have fundamental belief differences" to be strange and sad.
Edit: Ahh, another page. I hope this doesn't look like a dogpile. And to answer the above question, yes, I have associated with some people who were clearly and openly racist. It startled me when it came out, and I certainly tried to present a different view, but I didn't suddenly dump them as friends.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
About the only things that are likely to be even close to 'deal breaker' for me are some types of racism, some types of anti-homosexuality, and if they are an abusive or controlling partner in a relationship.
Besides that I butt heads with people about all sorts of topics and we're all wonderfully different and we love it.
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quote:While it is commendable to not judge people and to show respect for others beliefs it is a different matter entirely to continue a relationship with someone over many years with which you have fundamental belief differences. Look at your close friends - those you spend the most time with tend to be those you have the most in common with...
I also disagree with this. I'd be inclined to think that the ability to appreciate and be friends with someone who is fundamentally different from you is a sign of, and possibly a prerequisite for, wisdom.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I hope everyone has noted that in this thread I never passed judgment on anything Obama did. My criticism is of the LA Times, and the media in general. If any of you still think they're just doing a bang-up job, then you need to spend some time doing origami or wilderness survival training or something, because you've lost your grip on reality and need something to bring you back to Earth.
I agree. The media is not doing a bang up job. But I also think our politicians are not doing a bang up job, and our Churches are not doing s bang up job and our schools are not doing a bang up job and our corporations are not doing a bang up job.
In conclusion, only our Soldiers and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays are doing a bang up job.
...but I guess we should only expect near perfection from our media, because, uh....
Posts: 262 | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
Well hell, I'm not exactly doing a bang-up job in my own life, but I'm doing well enough, I guess. I don't expect anyone to perform perfectly, but I'd like to see some effort from time to time.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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