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Author Topic: I could use some help.
AdviceNeeded
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I really don't know how to start this, but it's something I really need help with, so I ask that if you're reading this, just bear with me as I try to figure out how to ask this.

I have a rather dark side to myself. While everybody has some inner demons, mine tend to be more violent and destructive to myself and those around me if I don't keep them in check. I'm not trying to be over-dramatic, but honest. As a whole, I find violence and crimes against humanity despicable. But there is a part of me that takes pleasure in seeing the plight of others, and I also feel a small amount of enjoyment in being a part of it. I've tried my whole life to shake myself of these thoughts and feelings, but sometimes I'd lash out and hurt people.

Finally a few years ago, I met a person who I confided in and who supported me, telling me that my good side will always triumph my hatred for others. I believed them, and I helped this person with their own troubles as well. We fell for each other and had a great relationship for a few years.

I don't wish to detail my relationship to any great extent, but I will tell you that after a personal tragedy for my significant other, we grew distant despite our attempts at keeping things working well between us. And eventually, this last spring, they broke up with me.

It caught me by surprise, to say the least. It threw me into an emotional spiral where my self-confidence was all but gone and depression was the norm for me. Either way, me and this person have tried to stay in touch, and maintain our friendship. But immediately after our break-up, I was distraught to say the least. For the next couple months or so, I did things that I'm not proud of, said things I didn't mean, and I fully regret what I did now. But it turns out some of the damage I did is still lasting. I moved fairly recently out of state and received a text message from this person, but let me give the background first.

At one point, shortly after our break-up, I was still in denial over the change in feelings between us. And in my confusion and desperation, I made them do something against their will, specifically I made them kiss me. (Nothing else) My purpose was that I hoped it would re-ignite some feeling of care and devotion to me, but I didn't think through those actions and I know it was a mistake to do. (Needless to say, it didn't work that way.)

Either way, tonight I randomly received a text message from them that said "I still am having trouble forgiving and forgetting when you forced me to kiss you. I never thought you would abuse me, but then you did."

... It's been months since that incident occurred. We tried to remain friends after that, and I never tried it again. It was after that day that I started to get a grip on what was happening in my life. But I had not realized until now what I had done: Abuse. I manipulated them, and forced them into doing something they didn't want to do. And that's abuse by it's very definition, even if not physically violent.

I want to say I never thought it was in me to do that, but I know my inner demons. Somewhere, deep inside, I've always known I've been capable of that. I just thought I never would, not to them. I still care so deeply for this person. And I hate that I did hurt them so deeply, and the pain continues still.

So this is what I'm asking, and my appeal to Hatrack. How can I change myself? I doubt I will ever be able to completely destroy my inner demons, but I need to know some way I can try to better myself.

Normally I see support groups for victims of abuse... but what about the abusers? Where can they turn for help on trying to change? Trying to rehabilitate themselves?

I've been trying to get into therapy again since I've moved. I have an appointment scheduled already, but for different reasons. (I still have very low self-esteem and lack self-confidence.)

I don't expect for the person to forgive me. I wouldn't forgive myself in that situation. But I do want to change so that I don't harm another person like that. I need your help.

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Samprimary
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The internet is good for ((hugs)) and amateur pseudo-psychoanalysis, but it's only safe to assume that a forum can only postulate and take stabs at what this is, or what you can do to 'fix' yourself, if you find yourself in need of reform. I'm not gonna diagnose somebody based on a post, or guess at whatever name you can put on it. This is something that requires a back-and forth exchange with someone who knows what they're doing and if you really feel like you need help with this and to work through your issues, you should do a little research on licensed therapists and figure out how to put some cash down for some sessions.

I recognize that in some parts, signing up with a psychologist could be a crap shoot. I also understand the potential financial difficulties, and the issues that arise due to the stigmatization of 'needing a shrink,' but really if the question is how do I deal with this seriously? my answer is to go to the pros.

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quidscribis
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I agree with going to the pros.

I knew some therapists back in Canada who counselled abusers and worked with them to change, so yes, such people do exist.

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Lanfear
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I'm not trying to make light of what happened with this person, but I don't know that I constitute that as abuse.

For the most part, even when someone says they don't want to be kissed, they usually don't stop you.

So a couple of scenarios

A)you tried to kiss said person, and they pulled away

a- Not a problem. You were just confused. It happens to everyone

B) You tried to kiss said person, and they kissed you back

b- also not a problem, because it was consensual whether they admit it or not

C) You physically held said person and made them kiss you

c- This is a problem.


So unless your in category C, I don't think your an "abuser"

However, inner demons are definitely something a lot of people struggle with. I don't think I have the answers for you there.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by quidscribis:
I agree with going to the pros.

Thirded. Heck, I was going to suggest finding a good shrink based on the second paragraph of your post, before you got into any specifics.
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Noemon
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I agree with you that what you did falls into the continuum of abusive behavior, AdviceNeeded, but I think that it speaks well of you that you feel disturbed by what transpired. I'll add my voice to the chorus saying that therapy would be a good idea. Given how you feel about the incident, I suspect that you'd be a great candidate for being helped by a competent therapist.
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rollainm
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I agree with the others. See a pro. But be careful. They really are hit or miss, at least around here anyway. You'll have to figure out the appropriate middle ground between realizing you don't have all the answers and thus putting a little trust in your therapist and recognizing when they really don't have a clue how to help you. Good luck.
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dkw
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A domestic violence hotline should be able to refer you to support groups and resources for abusers.

And I agree with what Noemon said, and how he said it.

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rivka
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As do I. It's an excellent point.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
I agree with you that what you did falls into the continuum of abusive behavior, AdviceNeeded, but I think that it speaks well of you that you feel disturbed by what transpired. I'll add my voice to the chorus saying that therapy would be a good idea. Given how you feel about the incident, I suspect that you'd be a great candidate for being helped by a competent therapist.

And there are layers to peal with situation that need to be done person-to-person, and can't be accomplished alone. How do you know that the problem, in this particular situation was that you were being too forceful? It may have been this other person who may have had a poor handle on their emotional state or reasoning, and then the question is, why didn't you see that or why were you with this person- what else in your radar is screwed up? There's a lot in this that you need to share openly and honestly with someone else- no other way I think.
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AdviceNeeded
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I do already have an appointment with a new therapist. I tried one earlier, but I didn't 'click' with them. They were rather disengaged on the issues I've been having. (I've got a laundry list of problems going on in my life right now that I've been trying to learn how to deal with.) So I am definitely trying to get help actively from the pros.

To answer Lanfear's question, I originally thought it was B. In the situation, and after it up until yesterday, that's what I thought went down. But after the person brought it up yesterday,I see that it was actually C. I really do authentically regret what I did, and never wish to let that sort of thing happen again with anyone. But I also know that so many abusers say that very thing, and go on and continue with those actions anyway... I really am afraid of myself.

I am taking the suggestion brought up here and trying to get professional help. Thank you for your replies.

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Toretha
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One thing I remember hearing about this is not to go an anger management route, if you're worried about abuse. One of the women I worked with specialized in abuse, and she said that anger management doesn't treat abuse because it's two seperate issues, one is anger and the other power and control. That said, I don't know enough to say that either would be appropriate, and probably a normal therapist would be best.
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recoverist
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quote:
Originally posted by AdviceNeeded:
I have a rather dark side to myself...some inner demons

we all do. no man or woman achieves greatness, expecially greatness of character, without any effort. much true joy and satisfaction comes from the struggle to better oneself. and the battles of most worth are always fought in the mind. God didnt put the diamonds in the earth already cut. He has allowed us the joy and appreciation of watching, and sometimes helping, the unrefined become refined. if you want to sparkle like the diamond you are, its going to take work. hard work. but one day you will look back on your former self and you will weep to think of how pathetic and short-sighted you were. there is no better day to change than today. give it 100 percent everyday. take it an hour at a time if you have to. use every option you have. any friends or family or professional service.

quote:

my good side will always triumph my hatred for others.

the good always triumphs. this is true and will always be true until you give up on yourself. darkness is the absence of light. how much light do you have in your life?

quote:

So this is what I'm asking, and my appeal to Hatrack. How can I change myself? I doubt I will ever be able to completely destroy my inner demons, but I need to know some way I can try to better myself.

(I still have very low self-esteem and lack self-confidence).


if you want self-esteem, perform estimable  (estimable: honorable. laudable. meritable, admirable, praiseworthy) acts. serve others and get outside yourself. when you see others for who they really are and what they can become if they only had a little help, you will see your own self-worth and potential. the more you put into life the more you get out of it. we do things and things happen in life that cause us pain. analyze it, learn from it, chalk it up and move. things can always get worse but if youre trying, things can only get better.

quote:

How can I change myself?

that is the question that needs answering. my answer, in short, is God. thats a subjet too sacred for me to discuss on an online forum but if you would like me to expound in a more personl way let me know. if He can help an addict of 10 years He can help you.
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romanylass
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I don't have any advice that has not already been given. I hope you click with your new therapist. If religion is not for you ( or even if it is) maybe a daily meditative or yoga practice would help in addition to therapy.
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romanylass
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Also remember that everything is easier when you take care of yourself physically. Stay hydrated, walk every day and eat well.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by recoverist:
that is the question that needs answering. my answer, in short, is God. thats a subjet too sacred for me to discuss on an online forum but if you would like me to expound in a more personl way let me know. if He can help an addict of 10 years He can help you.

You're coming very close to violating the TOS, if you haven't already.

TOS:
quote:
You also agree that you will not use this forum to try to convert people to your own religious beliefs, or to disparage others for their own religious beliefs.
Emphasis mine.

Just want you to be aware that proselytizing is against the TOS.

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Lanfear
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He's not trying to convert anyone. Whether you believe in God or not, spirituality can help you conquer your inner demons. He's merely mentioning the methods he used.
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El JT de Spang
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I don't want to get into a thing, here, but you clearly don't have enough information to say whether he is or isn't trying to convert anyone.

And it's certainly close enough that I thought I would warn him that doing so is a violation of the TOS.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by AdviceNeeded:
I do already have an appointment with a new therapist.

Good for you. And especially good for you for not giving up when the first one you tried was not the right fit.

Good luck!

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recoverist
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i love it... i mention God and someone freaks out. i can see reason for alarm if i had said read the koran or the bible or go to kingdom hall or live at a monastary. maybe i should have said "higher power/s". i thank lanfear for his level-headed, think-before-type response. it sums up my effort perfectly..

quote:
Originally posted by Lanfear:
He's not trying to convert anyone. Whether you believe in God or not, spirituality can help you conquer your inner demons. He's merely mentioning the methods he used.


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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by recoverist:
someone freaks out

Where?
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Lanfear
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I think a reverse argument could be made that JT is actually "disparaging" recoverist's religious beliefs.
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El JT de Spang
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Good luck with that.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Lanfear:
I think a reverse argument could be made that JT is actually "disparaging" recoverist's religious beliefs.

[Roll Eyes]

I happen to think JT overreacted a tad. But he did not "freak out" -- he was quite calm and rational. He has not disparaged anything.

Good grief.

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by recoverist:
i love it... i mention God and someone freaks out. i can see reason for alarm if i had said read the koran or the bible or go to kingdom hall or live at a monastary. maybe i should have said "higher power/s". i thank lanfear for his level-headed, think-before-type response. it sums up my effort perfectly..

quote:
Originally posted by Lanfear:
He's not trying to convert anyone. Whether you believe in God or not, spirituality can help you conquer your inner demons. He's merely mentioning the methods he used.


You are a new person, and no one freaked out...they simply chose to mention the TOC to you. A LOT of places on the web don't actually enforce their own TOC, but here at Hatrack we try to follow them mostly. [Big Grin]


I don't think what you did was wrong, or in violation of the TOC, but there is nothing wrong with mention that they exist, particularly since people often DO try to convert others on forums.


I thought you went about it correctly, offering help but leaving additional conversation regarding it to the other person. [Big Grin]


Welcome to Hatrack, that's a hell of a second post. [Big Grin]

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rivka
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TOS = Terms of Service

TOC = Table Of Contents?

[Wink]

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Lanfear:
I think a reverse argument could be made that JT is actually "disparaging" recoverist's religious beliefs.

[Roll Eyes]

I happen to think JT overreacted a tad. But he did not "freak out" -- he was quite calm and rational. He has not disparaged anything.

Good grief.

Yeah, I definitely didn't see any freaking out.

Actually, I contemplated posting the same thing JT did, more or less. The post he responded to didn't cross the line, but it felt to me like it was sort of sidling up to it; it definitely had a proselytizey feel, I thought. Not a bad thing at all, given that, to point out the rules to a newcomer that probably doesn't yet have a feel for the way the place operates.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
The post he responded to didn't cross the line, but it felt to me like it was sort of sidling up to it;

I agree. However, it also indicated that (s)he did not plan to continue the discussion here.
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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by recoverist:
i love it... i mention God and someone freaks out. i can see reason for alarm if i had said read the koran or the bible or go to kingdom hall or live at a monastary. maybe i should have said "higher power/s".

As you get to know us better, recoverist, you'll find that we actually talk about God (and gods) quite a bit.

Welcome to Hatrack!

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
The post he responded to didn't cross the line, but it felt to me like it was sort of sidling up to it;

I agree. However, it also indicated that (s)he did not plan to continue the discussion here.
True--that's why I decided to watch and wait instead of actually posting the warning. Still, JT's post seemed within the bounds of normal response to something like that.
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rivka
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*nod*
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Herblay
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It's not exactly a very fine line between "leaning in for a kiss", however unwanted, and physically holding someone down and forcing a kiss.

As well, grabbing an arm or putting an arm around someone and kissing them is different.

"Going for a kiss" is a fairly normal form of human communication. So is being turned down. But unless you were actually holding them down, pressing a pressure point, twisting a ligament, etc; it wasn't really a deviation from social norms.

I don't think that you can get a good answer unless you clearly define what happened. The difference between "B" and "C" in Lanfear's question is actually very clear cut.

If it wasn't a case of physical violence, you seem to be internalizing correctly. You're mortified that it happened and shocked enough by the incident that you won't overstep that boundary again.

If it could be deemed to be physically violent; you proved that when exposed to certain stimuli, that you don't respect the rights of other people. In this circumstance you probably need some form of formal councilling.

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AdviceNeeded
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It definitely wasn't physically violent. Other than playful things like 'Rock Paper Scissors Slaps' I've never tried to inflict pain on them. It makes me sick to the stomach to imagine this person being hurt physically.

According to the person, they tried to pull out of the kiss, but I didn't feel it. So I suppose I did pin them down, though not intentionally. The problem came more from the verbal coercion. When I look back, it seems as though I didn't really give any other option. I'm not an abusive person, but I took an abusive action and I'm trying to get help to make sure I don't do that sort of thing again.

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Phanto
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It still sounds very vague to me; I'm having a hard time visualizing. Could you provide mor of a step by step account?
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AdviceNeeded
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That's probably in part because the event is fuzzy to me. It happened over half a year ago, but this is how I remember it. We somehow got back to talking about our relationship, it happened often shortly after our break-up so I don't remember how we got on the subject. But I do remember that at the time, I was in denial that their feelings were really gone for me. So I somehow thought that maybe they would remember through a kiss. (I know it sounds irrational, because it is. But at the time, I was a very irrational person with all the things going wrong in my life at the time.)

They said they didn't really want to, but I pleaded, thinking a kiss was a simple request to try. Eventually, they caved and were willing to give it a try, so we hugged and gave a kiss. My hand apparently was on the back of their neck, as I tended to massage their neck when we'd kiss in the relationship. (Something they liked.) But I guess they were trying to pull away when it wasn't working and my hand kept them pinned.

Afterwards, I asked if it worked, which of course it didn't. But then I asked for one more try, after more pleading (a mistake) they caved again. After that, I never tried it again, realizing it wouldn't work and I finally started to accept that they really had lost their feelings for me.

Either way, I do feel as though I gave undue pressure for the kiss, and because it was unwanted, yet I pushed for it to the point they caved, I feel as though it was a form of abuse. Not nearly as severe as many, but still abuse. So I want to try to nip the action in the bud, and stop myself from slipping into a more abusive style, even if I'm in a bad run with life.

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TomDavidson
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Man, it's kind of weird to think what's considered abusive nowadays.
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Phanto
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So you didn't apply any physical force and didn't give anything that was not implicitly (and in fact was explicitly) given consent to?

How is that abusive? Pleading with someone to do something isn't abuse, though it may be annoying.

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AdviceNeeded
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I imagine I left out some details because my memory of the event is fuzzy. I'm guessing there were some crucial details I don't recall that made them feel forced to the point of no other option. At that point, they felt as though they have lost power and control and felt abused.
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rivka
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I'm not an expert, but focusing on the details of a single incident, rather than on your more general concerns, may not be the most helpful thing.
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scholarette
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From the details provided, there can be so many explanations of the events described. At this point, I don't think it is going to be possible to actually figure out what truly happened. Maybe abuse, maybe the other person is overreacting (several things in the story make me not view the other person as a reliable witness either, for example, a random e-mail several months after the fact), maybe something in between.

I agree with rivka (also not an expert). Focus on becoming the person you want to be. A fuzzy blurry incident really isn't who you are.

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Tatiana
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I think one question to ask yourself honestly is are you doing this to try to get the person back? Is this an effort to manipulate the person into recognizing that you want to change? Or have you really let it go and sincerely want to be a better person in the future and not repeat your mistakes? With honest effort and sincere focus, visualization, and role-playing of scenarios in which you respond appropriately to typical situations, people can change. Your counselor or therapist can teach you how. And if you believe in some form of spirituality, I agree that it can help you greatly in your quest. Good luck and let us know how you're doing.
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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by recoverist:
quote:

my good side will always triumph my hatred for others.

the good always triumphs. this is true and will always be true until you give up on yourself. darkness is the absence of light. how much light do you have in your life?
This is not true. Evil will always triumph over good, because

good

is

dumb

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Lanfear
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That wasn't abuse.

And I find it extremely odd that you aren't putting genders in it. All this they them business.

It would be much more clear if you just used he/she

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
I think one question to ask yourself honestly is are you doing this to try to get the person back? Is this an effort to manipulate the person into recognizing that you want to change? Or have you really let it go and sincerely want to be a better person in the future and not repeat your mistakes?

These are very good questions to be asking.

Lanfear, I assume that the careful use of gender neutral pronouns and such is being done by the poster in an effort to further obscure their identity here at Hatrack. I could be wrong, of course.

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Tante Shvester
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
I assume that the careful use of gender neutral pronouns and such is being done by the poster in an effort to further obscure their identity here at Hatrack. I could be wrong, of course.

I assumed that it was because this was a homosexual encounter, and the poster didn't wish to make that explicit.

In any event, the advice to follow up with professional counseling is good. I have nothing further to add to that.

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Herblay
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It seems to me that the other person is abusing you, not the other way around. They're pleading the abuse card and holding your guilt over your head. Especially by ceasing communication, then suddenly re-opening lines of communication with a "guilt trip".

A kiss, even a "pull away kiss" is a normal form of human communication. It's far different than an abusive action.

But it is abuse to hold this incident over your head. And the fact that they've got the guilt turned around on you shows that you're being manipulated.

Either that, or I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.

A homosexual encounter would change the dynamics; but if there was a previous relationship, the argument should still be sound.

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Tatiana
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I'm not sure that someone who wants no further contact can be said to be abusing anyone. I think the one who is trying to press their attention on the one who is trying to stay apart is the one who needs to be super careful they aren't edging over into stalking, abuse, manipulation, or bullying. I would say to AdviceNeeded that he or she should almost certainly give up on this particular relationship, as it seems to be past the point of no return. But if AN feels he or she was at fault and wants to become a better person, not repeat mistakes, and learn from his or her experiences, then I think that's a great idea and I want to encourage that and affirm that people can change if they truly want to change. It takes a lot of hard work sometimes, and consistent effort, but it definitely is possible.
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