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Someone forwarded me this article from the NYT. I wasn't even surprised.
quote:I want her to be able to look back,” Ms. Hunt declared, “and say, ‘Even though they were tough times, my mom was still able to give me stuff.
This is so alien to me. I would never want my daughters to look back and say anything like that. I don't want their fondest memories of me to be giving them "stuff," but to be of us all spending time together. Also, sacrifice isn't foregoing designer jeans to buy your daughter a Step 2 Lifestyle Grand Walkin Kitchen ($259.99 at Target).
I am appalled at the sheer volume of presents that so many parents are buying for their children this holiday season. If times are so tough, where is all this money coming from? Why are $200-$400 video game systems selling out in record time? Is buying an obscene amount of gifts that will likely be tossed aside in weeks or months the only way to make the holidays magical?
Hanukkah is not a major Jewish holiday, but it's a fun one. The joy of it has nothing to do with presents. I want my girls to have memories of lighting the menorah and playing dreidel and eating latkes with friends and family. Guess how many presents we're getting Aerin this year? NONE. She's 3 and she has all the toys and clothes she needs. Her grandparents got her a tricycle and helmet and I'm sure that other friends and relatives will give her gifts (though, frankly, I wish they wouldn't). Our plan for when the girls are older is to give them one very small present each night. By small, I mean modest - a pack of crayons, new hair ribbons, etc. We might give them one bigger gift, as well, but the grandparents will probably want to do that. It's our tradition to donate money at the end of the year and we'll involve them in that (this year we gave to the Holtzberg children and the March of Dimes).
This does not just go on during the holidays. I think many parents are out of control when it comes to spoiling their children. I read lots of parenting forums (I don't know why) and there's always a huge thread about storage solutions. I have one - stop buying stuff! Here's another - get rid of the stuff you have and don't need or use.
So many have lost sight of what hardship truly is. I read an article in September about how schoolchildren are affected by the troubled economy. I expected to read about how lunch programs are being cut and fewer teachers are being hired, etc. Nope. Instead, there was a quote from a mother of 3 lamenting that her children will have to make due with last year's backpacks. Another mother complained that the busses don't pick up each child at their house anymore - they have to walk to a designated bus stop in the area. Unbelievable. I had 4 backpacks in my entire education - 1 each for elementary, middle, high school, and college. I bought the high school and college ones myself. And why, in this era of high gas prices (they were then), environmental concerns, and childhood obesity would busses ever pick up each child at his door?
And it's not just upper middle class children who are being spoiled. I worked at an afterschool program at the local Y (grades K-8). It's one of the most affordable after school care programs in town. I was shocked to hear that approximately 85% of the children were on financial aid. 99.99% of those kids had new, name-brand clothes, new "cool" backpacks, video games, cell phones, and other things that I would never have dreamed of owning when I was their age. To this day, I'm outraged. If you need financial aid to send your child to the Y, you can't afford Gap clothes and $80 sneakers and video games. Plus, we had a very long waiting list. There are so many working parents who truly need affordable child care, but couldn't get a spot because of these dishonest parents.
People complain so bitterly about the greed of CEOs and stockholders, but what about the greed and entitlement that's being instilled in an entire generation?
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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See, I'm seeing some silver linings here. Many retailers were expecting a bad holiday season, if people are ineffectively cutting back and spending a lot anyways then that actually benefits the economy.
In fact, as savers, unless you're invested only in cash or cash-like assets, much of your investments will be in one way or another tied to the health of the economy. Its actually better in these troubled times for other people to take the hit and go out and spend. If everyone started to effectively stop spending and just started saving money, there would be cascading consequences as retailers go out of business, cut jobs, hurting other businesses, etc. Thats just in the US.
In the developing form, American spending on consumer goods has been the number one force in lifting millions out of poverty. The slowdown has already caused tens of thousands to lose their jobs and fall back into poverty.
So, I'm not really feeling too upset about this.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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We are doing better than we have in our whole married lives this year-- and yet, our holiday budget remains the same.
Like you, we don't want our kids to value "stuff" above all else. My fondest memories of childhood Christmases are of making and decorating cookies with my mom and sisters, putting the angel on top of the tree, caroling parties, making a gingerbread house, Christmas morning brunches, and always, always having a tangerine in my stocking (didn't matter how much candy was in there, I went for the tangerine first!) While yes, there will always be that one gift that you remember for the rest of your life-- it's not always the most expensive one. And most of the memories will not be about gifts, but family-- or that's how it should be, in my opinion. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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My favorite present was my guinea pig. He was a Peruvian long-hair which I've never seen since just looking around the local pet stores. I have no idea if it was the most expensive, but he probably was pretty pricey. Had nothing to do with why I liked him.
I know what you mean, Mrs. M. We have friends that got WIC and now get food from charity, but they have money for new video games when they come out, new computers, new bedroom furniture, fancy digital cable and high speed internet.
I guess that's my probalem right there. Cell phones are not a necessity. Cable internet is not a necessity. But then, I'm old fashioned enough that I don't consider a second car to be a necessity. What do I know.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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We've picked up a family tradition: gingerbread houses. I suspect that Sophie loves making them more than she loves anything else about Christmas, including the presents.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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At the top of my kids wishlist this (and past) Christmas is "chocolate santa", "books", and "pringles". I think we can manage that! (This from 3 kids between the ages of 12-17!)
Christmas is more about decorating the tree, watching Christmas specials (we love the Burl Ives Rudolph!), making and delivering cookies, and playing games as a family.
By the way, any new games this year that look good? I typically try to ask Santa to get us one new (to us)game for Christmas. Our favorites are Ticket to Ride, Acquire, Pirates Cove, Bazaar,...
Posts: 571 | Registered: Mar 2001
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My husband and I have been getting rid of stuff ever since we got married 5 years ago and decided that we were absolutely not going to get a storage unit. If it doesn't fit in the house or garage (after the cars are in!), we don't keep it. It took a long time, but we finally had the perfect amount of stuff. And then we had a kid.
It's unbelievable how much stuff comes in to your life when you have a baby, especially if you have a large and generous family whose motto has always been "Bigger, better, more." All we can really do during Christmas is say "thanks" and give anything we find excessive to charity (and I'm terrified of the day we can't do that because the baby is old enough to say, "but I want that!"). I try not to feel like an ungrateful jerk, but I just can't handle the volume of completely unnecessary stuff that Christmas brings.
Posts: 36 | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lobo: By the way, any new games this year that look good? I typically try to ask Santa to get us one new (to us)game for Christmas. Our favorites are Ticket to Ride, Acquire, Pirates Cove, Bazaar,...
Settles of Catan, Midgard, Hey! That's My Fish, Alhambra are all oldish but goodish games that might suit your family age range. Primordial Soup is a favorite of mine, but is a little long/complex compared to the favorites you list. Stone Age might work as well.
Oh, and Blockus. How could I forget Blockus? Go with the trigon version if you want the option to play with 3 as well as 4 players. (In theory you can play regular Blockus with 3, but it doesn't work terribly well.)
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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This year's been a weak one for games. There are some expansions for Ticket to Ride that look okay, but not compelling, and a deluxe version of Hey! That's My Fish. And, bafflingly, a four-player boardgame version of Lost Cities.
Based on what you've said, though, I have to ask: have you played Pillars of the Earth? It's like Caylus, minus some of the complexity and plus some flavor.
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lobo, I was watching the Burl Ives Rudolph the other day and again had cause to ruminate on how much of a jerk Santa is in that version. He's, like, the worst Santa ever.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Thanks for the game ideas. We have Settlers and Blockus. We got tired of Settlers (blasphemy I know - it was really never one of my favorites - don't know why) but still love Blockus.
Has anyone played Zooloretto? It won the german game of the year this year and looks pretty cool.
I will research Pillars, Fish, and some of the others.
Posts: 571 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: We've picked up a family tradition: gingerbread houses. I suspect that Sophie loves making them more than she loves anything else about Christmas, including the presents.
Our first couple Christmases together, M made gingerbread houses and sold them.
We made a phenomenal amount of money in a very short period of time.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by lobo: Thanks for the game ideas. We have Settlers and Blockus. We got tired of Settlers (blasphemy I know - it was really never one of my favorites - don't know why) but still love Blockus.
Honestly, I've never been a huge Settlers fan either--I include it for completeness's sake, and because I think of it as similar to some of the other things you mention.
There are a lot of Settlers variants, though. If you want something sort of similar but more complex and balanced, try Elasund: The First City of Catan.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: Cell phones are not a necessity. Cable internet is not a necessity. But then, I'm old fashioned enough that I don't consider a second car to be a necessity.
There a precious few things in life that are correctly labeled as "necessary" beyond physiological needs. Cell phones and broadband may not be truly necessary, but I find the cost of not having them to far out way it's actually cost. I mean, it's not a necessity to even have an internet connection in your home if there is a local library, but you still have the connection. Some families couldn't function without two cars. But I suppose if push comes to shove they could all just take the bus because independent transportation isn't really a "necessity". Not sure why I'm on this. I just wanted to point out that just because something is not technically a necessity to life (as in the three discussed) that it means it is not needed. Everything else said was spot on.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2008
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Rabbit - It seems there are lots of killer bunny options (magic carrot, journey to jupiter, many booster decks, etc.) Any suggestions for a newbie?
Posts: 571 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by lobo: Thanks for the game ideas. We have Settlers and Blockus. We got tired of Settlers (blasphemy I know - it was really never one of my favorites - don't know why) but still love Blockus.
Honestly, I've never been a huge Settlers fan either--I include it for completeness's sake, and because I think of it as similar to some of the other things you mention.
There are a lot of Settlers variants, though. If you want something sort of similar but more complex and balanced, try Elasund: The First City of Catan.
Settlers does get a little old. The expansions can change things up a bit and give new life to the game though. Cities and Knights of Catan is the best IMO. Also, I recommend taking a look at Carcassonne and Agricola if you haven't already.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lobo: Rabbit - It seems there are lots of killer bunny options (magic carrot, journey to jupiter, many booster decks, etc.) Any suggestions for a newbie?
Those are expansions. Start with the basic game, the one in the blue box.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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I don't see how this can possibly be a benefit to the economy. A lot of this stuff is being put on credit cards. I don't understand how going furthur into debt helps the economy. When I heard some of the bailout might be designated to help credit card companies keep issuing credit I was livid.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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On a completely opposite note, I adored getting nice things at Christmas. Most of my favorite jewelry are Christmas gifts from my mother. I loved the year I got a bike and a kite. I do remember my mother getting me nice things even when money was tight, and the memory is one of those that makes me feel so loved.
Obviously there are other ways to show love, and it shouldn't be the only expression, of course, but spending money on someone is a legitimate expression of love and can make kids feel secure and cared-for. Like J.K. Rowling said, "James had that indefinable air of a kid who has been well-cared for, even adored."
The piles of presents are not my only memories of either my mother or the holiday, but they are nice ones.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I want to second Agricola. Of course, my husband has been hyping that one since it came out in Germany.
Zooloretto is pretty fun. I think Aquaretto is a little bit more mentally challenging (not much more, but a little). But my daughter likes elephants so we'll eventually probably go with the zoo. We had fun playing and our friends with a 4 and a 6 year old had fun playing as a family. The 4 year old didn't really get it, but liked taking trucks.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: lobo, I was watching the Burl Ives Rudolph the other day and again had cause to ruminate on how much of a jerk Santa is in that version. He's, like, the worst Santa ever.
I absolutely loved this special when I was a kid and I still really love the style of it but it wasn't until I showed it to my kids that I gave any thought to how Santa treated Rudolph and how mean the elves were to Hermie. I still watch it most years though.
Posts: 1336 | Registered: Mar 2002
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There is a difference in consumer activity with the current recession. It is the discount stores that are doing a booming business. And with several computer chains going under, Best Buy is getting increased business.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I have never been comfortable with the idea of our economy's health being dependent on how much we spend. I am not an economic expert by any means, but I guess the idealistic part of me thinks that if it is good for individuals to save money, stay out of excessive or consumer debt, and invest wisely, then the more individuals do this, the more that our nation as a whole will improve.
However, it seems that if everyone were to start doing this, it would cause an economic collapse. Yet, I know that a huge chunk of the spending going on is through credit. I can't help but feel like our economic "growth" is being built on a house of cards.
My best guess, and I may be wrong, is that a sudden surge in saving and reduction in spending would only hurt the economy at first, because our entire economy is built upon spending, but that if our country had always been involved in a balance of spending, saving, and investing, our economic structure would be designed around this.
As it stands right now, it seems that spend, spend, spend is what grows our economy. If the economy is built on individuals, and individuals are spending themselves further into debt and further out of their own means, doesn't that mean this economic growth is about as real as the credit its built on?
Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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We're spending half what we spent last year. While we're making the transition from owning our own business to hubby being in education and still paying for school for me...it's gotten to the point that no wants are bought at our home - only needs.
My husband gets holiday pay every year, and that is our Christmas budget. I usually spend all of it, because it's not coming out of our normal operating finances. This year we put half of the money up for tuition, and I'm only spending the other half.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I don't see how this can possibly be a benefit to the economy. A lot of this stuff is being put on credit cards. I don't understand how going furthur into debt helps the economy. When I heard some of the bailout might be designated to help credit card companies keep issuing credit I was livid.
Well, the short answer is sometimes you have to spend money to make money.
Think of it as investing. Theoretically, you can start a business by accumulating enough money to start in with cash in hand. Alternatively, you can borrow money from a bank on the expectation that you can make enough money to pay back the loan and more.
As a simple example, Americans spend money on gas. This goes to Alberta where we invest in in facilities to process the oil sands. This produces oil and wealth down the road.
Alternatively, Americans could not buy gas. Canadian oil companies don't make money and cannot invest in additional facilities, and less wealth is generated in the long term.
This process is even more obvious in China. A fall in consumer spending here means less money to build roads, railways, schools, and other infrastructure in China which is essential for growing and developing a modern economy.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I don't see how this can possibly be a benefit to the economy. A lot of this stuff is being put on credit cards. I don't understand how going furthur into debt helps the economy. When I heard some of the bailout might be designated to help credit card companies keep issuing credit I was livid.
Well, the short answer is sometimes you have to spend money to make money.
Think of it as investing. Theoretically, you can start a business by accumulating enough money to start in with cash in hand. Alternatively, you can borrow money from a bank on the expectation that you can make enough money to pay back the loan and more.
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Hmm. Except I refuse to go into debt for the "good of the economy". Because what if that money to pay it back is NOT there? Then you're up a creek.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: My favorite present was my guinea pig. He was a Peruvian long-hair which I've never seen since just looking around the local pet stores. I have no idea if it was the most expensive, but he probably was pretty pricey. Had nothing to do with why I liked him.
I know what you mean, Mrs. M. We have friends that got WIC and now get food from charity, but they have money for new video games when they come out, new computers, new bedroom furniture, fancy digital cable and high speed internet.
I guess that's my probalem right there. Cell phones are not a necessity. Cable internet is not a necessity. But then, I'm old fashioned enough that I don't consider a second car to be a necessity. What do I know.
I get this too. I know people with no more money than we have who go out to eat and have a Wii and all that- I KNOW they are deep in debt or using the sytem because we have free internet and cook everything from scratch.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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The larger economic picture doesn't make any guarantees for the individual. (Arguably, it doesn't make any guarantees for anyone period, but thats a different question)
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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As a grad student married to another grad student who has a baby to take care of (so working in the university library is not an option) I think internet is a need, not want. We tried very hard to use the free internet services but we were never able to even get them to connect- there was some problem with our phone lines that the phone company wouldn't fix. Our neighbors all had similar problems with dial up and either do without or have cable. Hiring a babysitter so we could go the university library would cost more then the internet service and working at the library with the baby would be impossible.
We have a lot of nice stuff, but we also have the only grandchild so she gets a lot of nice gifts. It is very amusing looking at my husband's and my clothes and then looking at the baby's. Our are ripped, torn, faded, stained, patched numerous times, completely out of style and originally dirt cheap anyway. The baby, on the other hand, has all brand name clothes and enough that she can go 2 or 3 weeks without repeating or doing laundry (me- I have 2 pairs of jeans). We have a wii but only because it was a gift. I know I am very fortunate to have family that gives good gifts (and getting them to switch to just giving money isn't going to happen- they really enjoy the shopping part), but it doesn't change the fact that I am still struggling hard to get by.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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I get this too. I know people with no more money than we have who go out to eat and have a Wii and all that- I KNOW they are deep in debt or using the sytem because we have free internet and cook everything from scratch.
When I was a young bride about a hundred years ago, we lived in an apartment complex that was probably 90% military. All of our neighbors were about the same rank and made exactly the same salary each month. Most of us had a baby or two and we all paid the same amount of rent etc.
I was consistently amazed at how differently we all lived. I was breastfeeding my baby and my mother had paid for a year of diaper service. We didn't smoke or drink, had no car payment and no consumer debt at all. We ate every meal at home and maybe spent $10 a month on a movie or a night at the video arcade.
I had neighbors who smoked, went out partying at least once a week, fed their babies formula, used paper diapers, drove fancy cars, went out to lunch and dinner all the time and were always buying new clothes or household items. I never understood how they could afford all of that when we were barely making ends meet with our spartan lifestyle.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: See, I'm seeing some silver linings here. Many retailers were expecting a bad holiday season, if people are ineffectively cutting back and spending a lot anyways then that actually benefits the economy.
In fact, as savers, unless you're invested only in cash or cash-like assets, much of your investments will be in one way or another tied to the health of the economy. Its actually better in these troubled times for other people to take the hit and go out and spend. If everyone started to effectively stop spending and just started saving money, there would be cascading consequences as retailers go out of business, cut jobs, hurting other businesses, etc. Thats just in the US.
In the developing form, American spending on consumer goods has been the number one force in lifting millions out of poverty. The slowdown has already caused tens of thousands to lose their jobs and fall back into poverty.
So, I'm not really feeling too upset about this.
I think this just goes to show how the basis of our economy is fundamentally and deeply flawed.
When people need to spend money they don't have on things they don't need and maybe don't even really want (or won't want in a couple weeks) so that other people can have jobs, something is seriously screwed up.
We seem to have forgotten that people don't need jobs. They need food, clothing, shelter, medical care, beauty and something meaningful to do with their time. If jobs help provide those things, then jobs fill a vital need -- but jobs are not that need.
If everybody has to buy stuff they don't need or really want in order for everyone to have a job -- then maybe we need to rework the system so that everyone can work less rather than buying more.
We need a fundamental revision of economics that focuses on real human needs and desires rather than trying to maximize the amount of money that changes hands and the number of people with paying jobs.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Disclaimer: the following opinion comes from someone who is woefully ignorant of economics...
The recession always seemed (and still seems) to me to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Recessions are measured by a lack of consumer confidence, which is indicated by a decreased amount of spending. Decreased spending causes decreased production, which causes decreased jobs, which cycles to decreased spending...cyclical, right?
So... 9 or 10 months ago, folks started saying "it seems like a recession is looming". Well, enough people started saying it often enough that more people believed it. This resulted in *gasp* DECREASED CONSUMER CONFIDENCE? Well, if all the consumer is being told is of economic apocalypse, what do you expect?!?!?! So, people spent less money, even if they had it. People sold stock because of anticipation that stock prices would go down (doesn't stock getting sold cause its price to...go down for everyone else?). People see their savings/retirement diminish because of decreased stock and spend less money or sell stocks in a panic.
Meanwhile, they still have plenty of income (many of them) but are being more tentative in spending due to this perfect storm.
So, perhaps all these people buying lots of presents in spite of a recession are those who are actually doing fine, but listening to the panic and the hype?
That's not to say that the recession isn't real NOW. But it seems that it could have been avoided even with changes made within the last year...
Again, though, I'll admit that I know NOTHING about economics; all I'm writing about is just the pontificating of an ignorant teacher of music. What do I know?
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: As a grad student married to another grad student who has a baby to take care of (so working in the university library is not an option) I think internet is a need, not want.
In your case, I completely agree. You can't do your research or post your assignments without it. In the friends' case, when I suggested they cut back to dial up when they were having money problems, his reply was what else was she going to do all day? The wife majored in creative writing.
There's no one item that is never a necessity to anyone ever. It's just amazing how often people have many items that aren't necessities for them but don't feel guilty accepting charity. I guess the thinking is why not? Other people with much more are willing to give it to them, so why not enjoy something nice with their own money in the meantime. I just know it's not an attitude that I would be comfortable, and I wonder how healthy it is to feel entitled to other peoples' things just because they're willing to share.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:On a completely opposite note, I adored getting nice things at Christmas. Most of my favorite jewelry are Christmas gifts from my mother. I loved the year I got a bike and a kite. I do remember my mother getting me nice things even when money was tight, and the memory is one of those that makes me feel so loved.
Obviously there are other ways to show love, and it shouldn't be the only expression, of course, but spending money on someone is a legitimate expression of love and can make kids feel secure and cared-for.
Katie, this is a valid point and I don't necessarily disagree. My main objection to the article is that this woman is not buying her daughter nice, thoughtful heirloom presents, but trendy junk that even she refers to as "stuff." I guarantee that that kitchen will be back in that garage within a month, along will all the other toys in that pile. Bikes and kites are fantastic presents because they'll be used and cherished for years to come. Jewelry is something that will last a lifetime and can be passed on through generations.
I also object to the idea that this woman is sacrificing anything. She's simply not buying something she wants, but can't afford. That's not sacrifice. Nor is it hardship. Not being able to buy designer jeans that you "covet" is not the same as not being able to buy yourself a winter coat because you bought one for your child. It's not the same as working 2 jobs to put food on the table and keep a roof over your children's heads.
I think the holidays are just a grander scale of the year-round spoiling of children. Consider this excerpt from a mommy blog:
quote:A couple of weeks ago my in laws returned home after a 2 month RV trip across the country. Throughout the trip they sent postcards to the kids, a box of Halloween treats, and Zoe a birthday package. When we went to see them they had a bunch of goodies for the kids including t-shirts, geodes, book, snacks, and other little trinkets. After looking at everything my children then asked, "Is that all you brought me?"
Now for confession time. I think I am partly to blame for their ungratefulness. I am the enabler. I buys toys when we are at WalMart just because, birthdays and Christmas abound with presents, they choose multiple snacks when grocery shopping, we go to McDonalds frequently, they choose restaurants when we go out...I could go on and on.
Part of why I get so worked up about this issue is that I sometimes feel like a lone voice in the wilderness. When we visit friends with kids, they have double to triple the things that Aerin has. People look at me like I'm a monster when I say that we only allow toys in the playroom or Aerin's bedroom. Jaws drop when I explain the 10 Toy Rule (no more than 10 toys out at once - books, sporting equipment, and certain games don't count as toys and toys can have multiple parts). I've had to be very firm with family members who want to shower Aerin with gifts. I don't understand the objections to our rules because Aerin is such a happy little girl and gets so much out of the toys she does have.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: We need a fundamental revision of economics that focuses on real human needs and desires rather than trying to maximize the amount of money that changes hands and the number of people with paying jobs.
Sure. I hear you. Just tell us when you've got a new system all figured out Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I find myself snarling and snuffling a bit at the suggestion that "fathers will no doubt sacrifice to put toys under the tree. But figures suggest the burden is falling most heavily on women..."
quote:In September and October, sales of women’s apparel fell precipitously compared with the same months the year before. They were down 18.2 percent in October, for instance, compared with a decrease of 8.3 percent for men’s apparel...
Now, I'm not immediately drawing on numbers here (I'll glance around Google in a moment), but I'm pretty sure that clothing is a greater portion of many women's "expendable" budgets than men's; additionally, my experience is that men's clothing tends to cost less than women's, last longer, and require less specific and intricate care. To site these figures as indicating women are sacrificing more than men seems like a load of twaddle to me.
ADD: From CNN:
quote:With women's fashions accounting for 65 percent of the $155 billion adult apparel market
Now to be clear, I'm not saying women aren't sacrificing, or that men don't spend equally, just on other things. Just that using those figures to support an assumption of greater sacrifice is hogwash.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by lobo: Take some of the brand-name baby clothes and exchange it for adult clothing...
Works great until grandma wants to know why the baby neevr wears that adorable dress she gave her. (Leaving aside the fact that most parents are understandably reluctant to take a gift meant for their child and turn it into one for themselves.)
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: We need a fundamental revision of economics that focuses on real human needs and desires rather than trying to maximize the amount of money that changes hands and the number of people with paying jobs.
I believe you are trying to change human nature more than you're trying to change economics.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: Part of why I get so worked up about this issue is that I sometimes feel like a lone voice in the wilderness.
I know the feeling, and you're definitely not.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I think this just goes to show how the basis of our economy is fundamentally and deeply flawed.
When people need to spend money they don't have on things they don't need and maybe don't even really want (or won't want in a couple weeks) so that other people can have jobs, something is seriously screwed up.
We seem to have forgotten that people don't need jobs. They need food, clothing, shelter, medical care, beauty and something meaningful to do with their time. If jobs help provide those things, then jobs fill a vital need -- but jobs are not that need.
If everybody has to buy stuff they don't need or really want in order for everyone to have a job -- then maybe we need to rework the system so that everyone can work less rather than buying more.
We need a fundamental revision of economics that focuses on real human needs and desires rather than trying to maximize the amount of money that changes hands and the number of people with paying jobs.
I absolutely and 100% agree with you. But I don't think enough people do for that to be feasible.
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Awesome.
