quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: From the time the British invaded, the Irish Catholics were all basically civilian hostages.
The IRA is a group of hostages who decided to fight back.
And I'm dead serious about this.
Hostages? Really? I can understand "occupied". I can understand "oppressed". What I can't understand is "hostages". It just doesn't seem to be the correct word.
Furthermore, the whole Irish thing is a poor analogy. The Jews were there before the Arabs. It's not like Jews came into Arab land and started taking things. Jews came back to our own land.
I didn't mean that literally.
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Certainly not in anyones living memory and even debatable from an historical perspective.
False. There has been a continuous (albeit small) Jewish population in Israel for the past 200 years.
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Surely you don't think a small group of people existing in a place means that the ownership rights of the rest of the population are illegitimate?
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I was christening my newly purchased seasons of Babylon 5 last night by watching Season 3, and an exchange of dialogue in "Convictions" reminded me of this thread. As a disclaimer, I'm not saying the Palestinians are the Narn and that the Israelis are the Centauri, just that something about it rings familiar:
Londo : "There, you see? I'm going to live!" G'Kar: "So it would seem. Well, it is an imperfect universe." Londo: "Bastard." G'Kar: "Monster." Londo: "Fanatic!" G'Kar: "Murderer!" Londo: "You are insane!" G'Kar: "And that is why we'll win."
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Certainly not in anyones living memory and even debatable from an historical perspective.
False. There has been a continuous (albeit small) Jewish population in Israel for the past 200 years.
I don't think you parsed my sentence correctly. I did not say Arabs were there before any Jews were there. I know that there has been a small Jewish community in Jerusalem for at least 200 years. I said, that at least in the context of living memory, Jews were not there before the Arabs and that up until 1900, the area was "occupied predominantly" by Arabs. I am confident those statements are true.
I have not claimed that no Jews have a legitimate or rational claim to the land. I believe many Jews do. I also believe that many Palestinians have legitimate and rational claims to the land. I was objecting to Lisa's "We are right because we were here first" argument.
[ January 23, 2009, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Originally posted by Phanto: I think that it's pretty clear that Israel's response is proportionate and reasonable .
If only the world didn't feel such animosity towards Israel, an intensity which doesn't make sense. Daily across Africa massacres seem to be occurring, with massive poverty and starvation, yet no one cares.
There's an exclusive interview with Alan Dershowitz on Shalom TV this week.
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I find it only barely relevant to the topic aspectre posted it in. However, that's his usual MO.
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Thanks for that - I have friends who were soldiers in Gaza and they feel exactly like that. It's nice to see it articulated so well.
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Although it's fairly obvious what's going to happen a few seconds in, you should still probably warn people, Lisa.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: That was on the lighter side?
<shrug> I don't know. It cheered me up a little.
Fair warning... someone gets "blowed up". But it's self-inflicted and during the course of trying to hurt others, so I'm going to say it's a good thing.
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I guess I shouldn't be, but I'm a little surprised that even you would take that kind of delight.
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It's not that your (Lyrhawn and Humean) reactions surprise me all that much, but I find them puzzling. You're honestly telling me that you can look at this guy, in a religious fervor, shooting one mortar after another at civilians, and you don't think the world is a far better place with him blown to smithereens? Imagine how much better the world would be if they all blew themselves up.
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I'm happy that I still have not lost my sensitivity to the loss of human life. I'm happy he is gone, and happy he is gone in the way he is - it's true justice. Watching it is another matter.
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It's the Darwin Awards. It's almost as good as the daylight savings time accident. The Palestinian Authority refuses to start and end Daylight Savings Time when the evil Zionist entity does, so they were an hour off. Some Palestinian Arab terrorists were getting ready to kill some Jews. They'd set a timer on a bomb, and were driving it into a Jewish neighborhood. But with the time being off and all, the bomb blew up an hour earlier than they'd expected. Terrorist puree.
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I saw the link before anyone commented and was quite upset. Of course, and I will never admit this to my family, I actually feel bad for the guy who killed my aunt, so my mercy instinct is much stronger then my justice.
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No blood or gore in this one. Just Israel's president and Turkey's PM debating Gaza.
Peres... I don't like him. To say the least. But he was magnificent. Too bad the media will ignore everything he said.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: It's not that your (Lyrhawn and Humean) reactions surprise me all that much, but I find them puzzling. You're honestly telling me that you can look at this guy, in a religious fervor, shooting one mortar after another at civilians, and you don't think the world is a far better place with him blown to smithereens? Imagine how much better the world would be if they all blew themselves up.
Well, I don't know if he's shooting at civilians. Mortars are relatively short range, he isn't firing qassams or katyushas. My best guess would be that he's firing at IDF troops. Was there something in the link that specifically stated that he's firing at civilians?
Either way, I rarely find myself in a place that has me rejoicing at the horrific deaths of people. I think there are terrible people in the world that the world would be better off without, and I think that many of them deserve death, but that guy? Who knows? Maybe his family was killed in an IDF missile strike, or maybe yeah, he was recruited at a young age and is just shooting randomly into a crowd. There's no way of knowing, and now there never will be. Hating an individual I think is often more justified than hating an amorphous group of people.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: It's the Darwin Awards. It's almost as good as the daylight savings time accident. The Palestinian Authority refuses to start and end Daylight Savings Time when the evil Zionist entity does, so they were an hour off. Some Palestinian Arab terrorists were getting ready to kill some Jews. They'd set a timer on a bomb, and were driving it into a Jewish neighborhood. But with the time being off and all, the bomb blew up an hour earlier than they'd expected. Terrorist puree.
Awesome. Its like Jihadist Wilde Kyoty against Jewish roadrunner.
The gene pool is now a little bit purer.
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I think there's a fairly huge gap between the thought "it is good that this person is no longer hurting other people" and the thought "I rejoice and find amusement in this person's death."
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quote: You're honestly telling me that you can look at this guy, in a religious fervor, shooting one mortar after another at civilians, and you don't think the world is a far better place with him blown to smithereens? Imagine how much better the world would be if they all blew themselves up.
You know, I remember exactly where I was on 9/11, heck most every one I know does. I was at Texas Tech University and I woke up to 12 messages on my machine and Rudy G. telling the citizens of New York, on the radio, that they should walk out of Manhattan. However, the thing I remember most from that day wasn't anything that happened in New York or D.C, it was the video of people celebrating what had happened. I had seen people jumping from the towers, I knew that many firefighters and police were gone, I knew that the death toll could raise into the tens of thousands, but the thing that affected me more than anything else were the celebrations I saw that day, there were people in the world who celebrated the deaths of thousands of Americans.
I think it says something about both the human condition and the nature of hatred and violence we encounter, but I also think it provides stark contrast. Black hats and white hats like those worn in cowboys movies hardly, if ever, exist in the real world, the real world is much more complicated for the most part, but there are still certain things that can give us a hint. For instance, how we act when our enemy dies. Make no mistake, people like Hitler or Bin Laden or McVeigh deserved to be punished and face the world for the crimes they commit, but the difference between us and them is that they revel in death and are makers of violence and destruction. And we aren't.
You revel in death Lisa, and that makes it very difficult for me to tell the difference between you and the people you fight. Between you and the people in that video from 9/11. Whether that means that they have won, at least with you, is not for me to say, but I do know that no matter what you do, no matter how many of them you kill or laugh at when they die, there will be others who follow them. And they will do so because you laughed at them...
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quote:Originally posted by Humean316: However, the thing I remember most from that day wasn't anything that happened in New York or D.C, it was the video of people celebrating what had happened.
You realize, of course, that there was quite a lot of that going on amongst the Palestinian Arabs. And you don't see the difference between them rejoicing over the deaths of civilians at work and me rejoicing over the death of a terrorist engaged in terrorism?
quote:Originally posted by Humean316: Black hats and white hats like those worn in cowboys movies hardly, if ever, exist in the real world, the real world is much more complicated for the most part,
That's the common view nowadays, and I think it accounts for a great deal of evil itself. There are greys, yes, but there are blacks and whites, and that guy pumping mortars across the border and shouting Allahu Akbar before each shot is evil. The world is a better place with him dead.
Life, as such, is not a value. There are lives that are a negative value. People for whom it is good to rejoice at their deaths. This guy was one such.
quote:Originally posted by Humean316: You revel in death Lisa, and that makes it very difficult for me to tell the difference between you and the people you fight.
I don't revel in death. I revel in the death of the evil. There's a difference. I despise Anne Coulter, but I wouldn't rejoice at her death. I abominate Louis Farrakhan, but I probably wouldn't rejoice at his death, either. When a Nazi dies, I rejoice. When a Jew-hating terrorist dies, I rejoice. Revel, even. I feel bad for you, Humean. What's the opposite of colorblindness? Where you can see everything but black and white? You're blind to evil, and it makes you associate joy at the death of those who are evil with joy at death in general.
quote:Originally posted by Humean316: but I do know that no matter what you do, no matter how many of them you kill or laugh at when they die, there will be others who follow them. And they will do so because you laughed at them...
No. Those who follow will do so, as this one did, out of evil and hatred. Not because they were laughed at. The fact that you can say such a thing just shows how little you understand about their motivations.
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"I don't revel in death. I revel in the death of the evil. There's a difference. "
No. There's not.
"No. Those who follow will do so, as this one did, out of evil and hatred. Not because they were laughed at. The fact that you can say such a thing just shows how little you understand about their motivations."
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Lisa, do you take drops out of your cup on Pesach?
Okay, I won't bother telling you that the drops represent the spilled blood of the Egyptians. But I will point out to you that binfol oyivcha al tismach applies to oyivcha ha-yehudi. And I'll point out Megillah 16a, in case you think that's just my opinion. I'll also point out b'avod reshaim rina.
And on the Avodah list, there was a huge debate about this a couple of years ago.
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If the choice is between siding with Micha and Zev, I know where I fall. (I believe I've read that exchange before, too.)
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Fine. Just so long as you understand that I side with Josh and Rav Bar Hayim and, oh yeah, the Gemara.
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I'm on Lisa's side but for practical reasons. I think that I would make her points less harshly though...
I think that a victim is supposed to hate his enemy - Ecclesiastes says that there is indeed a time to hate. I think one can hate their own enemy because they seek to destroy you - you need every ounce of your energy to ensure your survival.
However, I can hear an argument that bystanders (if there is even such a thing in a moral struggle) should indeed hate death in all forms.
(It should be noted that I didn't see the gemara inside or follow the back-and-forth on Avodah. So if my arguments seem silly in that light, feel free to disregard them. I'm sick and too lazy...)
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quote:I think that a victim is supposed to hate his enemy - Ecclesiastes says that there is indeed a time to hate.
It does, but it seems to me that most of the Christians on this board are going to find that a very unconvincing argument, superseded by what Jesus says. And yes, if read literally, Jesus does agree with Gandhi, the Israelis should lay down their arms and permit themselves to be killed. Few Christians are prepared to live up to that, of course; but that's what the man says.
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quote:I think that a victim is supposed to hate his enemy - Ecclesiastes says that there is indeed a time to hate.
It does, but it seems to me that most of the Christians on this board are going to find that a very unconvincing argument, superseded by what Jesus says. And yes, if read literally, Jesus does agree with Gandhi, the Israelis should lay down their arms and permit themselves to be killed. Few Christians are prepared to live up to that, of course; but that's what the man says.
He most certainly does not say that. Or to be more accurate, while God may require people to allow themselves to be slain he also may require people to fight. Jesus didn't have any qualms with violently clearing the temple, apparently it was the only way to accomplish that aim.
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I do not believe that you are capable of an objective reading of Jesus's words, BB. Since you believe that you believe them, you must necessarily twist their meaning so they do not conflict with your other, primate-instinct-level beliefs, such as the acceptability of self-defense. They are sufficiently counter-intuitive that an outside perspective is required to see what is actually said; hence crusades, inquisitions, and what have you. The people who state that these are not the actions of True Christians have got a point, they just don't take the next logical step.
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quote:I do not believe that you are capable of an objective reading of Jesus's words, BB. Since you believe that you believe them, you must necessarily twist their meaning so they do not conflict with your other, primate-instinct-level beliefs, such as the acceptability of self-defense.
I'm not sure how that follows. You're simply ignoring an event that is just as likely to have happened as Jesus instructing people to be non-violent. While Jesus certainly said turn the other cheek, he also instructed his disciples to sell their second cloak and purchase a sword when it was appropriate to do so.
Furthermore many of Jesus' teachings run counter intuitive to some of our basic instincts such as self preservation, I can recognize that just as easily as you can. While outside perspectives on Jesus' teachings can certainly be useful, in depth understanding is no less valuable. I could just as easily argue that because you reject the core tenet of Jesus teachings, all other teachings branching off of that are beyond your comprehension.
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