quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I can guarantee you that I would feel even stronger opposition if an LDS country were bombing and killing and hundreds of Palestinians.
"Tonga bombs Palestine" Yeah, it would upset me very badly too. It bothers me how many LDS seem to think torture is okay here in the U.S.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
" I do not know of any other country which in modern times has stolen land from a people, denied their every effort to be compensated for that theft and punished every attempt to seek redress of grievances."
Fortunately, Israel hasn't done any of these things, either.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: " I do not know of any other country which in modern times has stolen land from a people, denied their every effort to be compensated for that theft and punished every attempt to seek redress of grievances."
Fortunately, Israel hasn't done any of these things, either.
Yes they have. I have a personal friend whose father was driven from his home in Israel at gun point in 1948. That home is now occupied by Israelis citizens. The family has never been offered compensation for the lost property and was exiled and is denied the right to return to Israel even as visitors. There was a brief period in 90s when some Palestinians were allowed to return to Israel on tourist Visas. My friend who is now a US citizen (and a model citizen whose won awards for community service at that) applied for one of these visas so that he could see his ancestral home. His application was denied because his family has not given up their claim on that home.
This is only one case, but in this case at least every accusation I made against Israel is true. I am confident that not every Palestinian was driven out at gun point. I'm sure that some left voluntarily even though neighbors begged them to stay -- but some did in fact have their property homes stolen at gun point.
What's more, none of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are legal under international law nor any concept of property rights. That land was taken illegally by force from its rightful owners and given to Israeli citizens (the equivalent of theft). Owners of the land have never been offered compensation nor allowed to seek redress for their loss.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
After catching up on this thread, I'm inclined to agree with The Rabbit's Friday posts. Specifically, the reaction the article and nothing about policy towards Israel.
I think the article was too charged with emotion when more powerful arguments could be made. I too cringed when I read the comparison between the thousands who couldn't sleep at night and the "humanitarian crisis" that is compared to in Gaza.
When I read criticisms of Gaza, either by The Rabbit or by others here on Hatrack, i am disappointed and frustrated. Not because I think you are fools, I do not. I understand that this situation is complex and that a large perspective with many facts is necessary in order to reach a pro-Israel position that doesn't include ignoring Gazans and their plight.
However, when I read about the world-wide protests, about how in my own country, someone says that the Jews should go back to the ovens, I get scared. Maybe because I was raised this way, the grandson of 3 holocaust survivors, to live in fear. When the 6-day war began in Israel, my Grandfather divided up gold coins and diamonds between my mother and her brother and placed it in the false-heels of shoes he had been saving for such an occasion. Should Israel be destroyed, he had prepared his children, my mother, to run again.
You have to understand. Most Jews have this mindset. Bringing up anti-semitic remarks at an anti-Israel rally really SCARES me.
I attended a rally myself in NY this past week, a pro-Israel one across from the Israeli consulate. The first speaker got up and talked about how he lost a friend in the WTC on 9/11. That friend, was Muslim. He spoke about how this friend was a TRUE Muslim, peace-loving, etc. He explained to us that we should not confuse Muslims with terrorists, and that our fight is against Hamas.
Throughout the rally, the police were keeping the sidewalk open for traffic to pass through. One man, there because he was passing through, shouted "Destroy Gaza" - as if he were at a baseball game, trying to get a rise out of the crowd. Literally, EVERYONE in his vicinity whirled around and shot him hundreds of dirty looks.
So yea, im sad, and a little scared.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
So, in other words, your original statement is not true. Your complaint is true of SOME people, not "a people," as you originally said.
You also said you know of no other country which in modern times has done these same things. If we're applying the standard to what happened to SOME people, I have a partial list for you: Every muslim country in the middle east. Targeted people? Jewish people. In fact, in many of those countries, Land and property was stolen by many arabic governments from all jewish people living within their territory, with no compensation.
Under international precedent, israel can consider all of the property and land stolen from those jews, who came to settle in israel, against the land and property taken from arabs who settle in those arabic countries. Under that precedent, the arab world owes israel hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars, and israel owes nothing.
This of course leaves aside the fact that the arab nations were the agressors in an illegal war in 1948, and as such under international law are due no compensation for anything they lost in the waging of that war.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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My rabbi announced today that he will be travelling to Israel tomorrow to bring supplies and comfort to many who have been affected by this terrible war. Among the places he'll be visiting is Sderot. He'll be keeping a blog, which I'll be happy to share if anyone is interested (as soon as it's up). He'll also be able to pray for me and the babies at the exact time I'll be giving birth, which is very special.
This is a very interesting blog article from GayConservative.org. Mel has been doing a series since the rocket attacks began and I find his prespective extremely interesting.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: The Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated areas of the world with over 12 times the population density of Israel and nearly as densely populated as the city of Hong Kong ...
Completely aside from the debate, as a statistics wonk, I was kinda curious about the latter part of this claim and to be honest it seems kinda misleading.
When one thinks of Hong Kong, one probably thinks of the areas of Mongkok or Central, the former of which IS the world's most densely populated area. Wikipedia gives 130,000/km^2.
However, Hong Kong as a whole includes land stolen by Britain over a total of two Opium Wars. Thanks to fairly good city planning and preservation of green space, this area which includes the New Territories, many islands, and economically uninhabitable peaks is actually fairly not dense at 6,352/km^2.
For example, if you look at a list of cities sorted by density, say here Hong Kong would only reach rank 39 (if it were considered a city, which on this list it is not).
So what is going on here? The Gaza Strip only reaches 4,118/km^2. As far as cities go, the whole of the Gaza Strip is only roughly half the size of Toronto which has a similar density of 3,972/km^2. Any respectable city in the US or Canada should have roughly the same density and many including at a quick glance like New York or Chicago have more.
Well, what is going on is that if we treat Gaza as a country (and not as a tiny city as it more closely resembles demographically) then Gaza would have come in behind Singapore and Hong Kong pretty much by default since there are precious few (what are actually) cities which are classified as countries.
None of this is to dispute the basic claim that there's not much room to run to, but simply to note that The Gaza Strip resembles something more like a smaller American city under siege than anything like what mentally comes to mind when you think of Hong Kong.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Paul, Look at a map of the 1947 boundaries set up by the UN and the current boundaries of Israel not including the occupied territories? How did Israel end up with all that additional territory? Negotiation? Treaties? Did they buy it? Is there some other legal means by which you obtained this land? If not, I'll stick with the word theft.
quote:You also said you know of no other country which in modern times has done these same things. If we're applying the standard to what happened to SOME people, I have a partial list for you: Every muslim country in the middle east. Targeted people? Jewish people. In fact, in many of those countries, Land and property was stolen by many arabic governments from all jewish people living within their territory, with no compensation.
I am aware of this and find it an atrocity. But you are still ignoring what has happened in the occupied territories. Point me to another country which has in this century taken territory from another people in an military action and continues to occupy that territory, refuses to grant citizenship to residents of the territory but gives land in that territory to its own citizens without compensation to the original people who occupied the land.
Certainly many countries have committed and continue to commit inhumane acts. But the Israeli situation is truly unique in todays world. For the Israeli's to maintain that they are better than any one else in the same situation is ridiculous because there is no one else in a truly comparable situation. You are the nicest in a party of one.
quote:Under international precedent, Israel can consider all of the property and land stolen from those jews, who came to settle in israel, against the land and property taken from arabs who settle in those arabic countries. Under that precedent, the arab world owes israel hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars, and israel owes nothing.
I'd like to see the numbers on that. If Israelis are actually only occupying the property of people who have been given "Jewish homes" in other Arab countries, then it seems fair but I am skeptical that this is what has happened.
There are still at least 2 and a half million Palestinians living in Israeli occupied territory who have not taken residence in any country that has expelled its Jewish population. Many of them have been living in refuge camps for decades. If its actually international precedent to give peoples property away while they are still living in refugee camps, then the precedent is unethical.
If John is forced from his home by Peter, and Paul is forced from his home by Mary, it doesn't constitute justice for Mary to give Paul's home to John while Paul is still left homeless -- even if Paul and Peter happen to belong to the same ethnic group.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:None of this is to dispute the basic claim that there's not much room to run to, but simply to note that The Gaza Strip resembles something more like a smaller American city under siege than anything like what mentally comes to mind when you think of Hong Kong.
Thanks for the clarification on that. I've never been to Hong Kong and did not realize how misleading the numbers were.
Its still worth noting that Gaza is not only a densely populated urban area, its under siege. People can't flee, they aren't allowed to.
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quote:However, when I read about the world-wide protests, about how in my own country, someone says that the Jews should go back to the ovens, I get scared. Maybe because I was raised this way, the grandson of 3 holocaust survivors, to live in fear. When the 6-day war began in Israel, my Grandfather divided up gold coins and diamonds between my mother and her brother and placed it in the false-heels of shoes he had been saving for such an occasion. Should Israel be destroyed, he had prepared his children, my mother, to run again. . . .
So yea, im sad, and a little scared.
The outburst of anti-semitism scares me too. My family was never taken to the concentration camps, but I do have a very deep understanding of the horrors of holocaust. When people allow themselves to strip any group of their humanity, no one is safe.
I really hope that no one here interprets my comments as being anti-Israel or anti-Semitic. Its just that I have studied this issue long enough to know that both sides have legitimate grievances and until both sides are willing to admit that, peace and security won't be possible for either side.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
"Paul, Look at a map of the 1947 boundaries set up by the UN and the current boundaries of Israel not including the occupied territories? How did Israel end up with all that additional territory? Negotiation? Treaties? Did they buy it? Is there some other legal means by which you obtained this land? "
Yes. Captured in wars of agression waged against israel.
"If not, I'll stick with the word theft. ""
Thats the wrong word. Theft is illegal. Occupying territory in a defensive war is legal.
Look, whats going on in gaza is awful.
But Israel agreed to a partition in 1947 that the arab nations did not. Instead, they sought to "drive the jews into the sea," and failed... and in so doing, lost territory.
In 1967, Jordan and Egypt again sought to "drive the jews into the sea," and failed... and in so doing, lost territory. Israel offered most of it right back... but no one was interested. It was only after this war that there became an organization Israel could have negotiated with on behalf of the palestinians... and it took over 20 years before that group thought negotiation was even an acceptable idea. In the meantime, israel managed to conclude peace treaties with the nations that lost the west bank and gaza to israel, but neither particularly wanted those territories back.
I think the whole foundation of your perspective is wrong, from an historical perspective, and from an international law perspective. That doesn't mean I think Israel has done nothing wrong, and it doesn't mean I disagree that the settlements are illegal... they are.
But the problems that the palestinians face are primarily due to bad leadership that has consistently endorsed violence, and especially against civilians, as a means of achieving its ends, as well as being abandoned by most of the arab world except for propoganda purposes.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Going back a bit, this related to my previous comments on other parts of the world. However, the top news item on Global Voices (an aggregate of blogs from around the world) is a compilation of China and Hong Kong: Views on Gaza Conflicts
The summary is while there is a lot of apathy,
quote: ... many in Hong Kong and Taiwan condemn Israel for invading Gaza and killing of civilians, the position and opinions in Mainland China are rather ambivalent. Most of the articles are speculations on the reason behind the military action.
By contrast, another blog translated a few mainland Chinese comments under a few graphic pictures of the aftermath of the destruction of a Hamas (police station?).link These were originally posted on a mainland Chinese BBS.
quote: Reader comments:
- You can't do anything unless you have power.
- The place is hell anyway, and the elimination of the demons can return it to the human world.
- Israel is cleaning out the cancer on Earth
- It would be great if the world permits Israel to conduct precision bombing! America can lend them a few B52's and the cancer of the Earth will be eradicated by Israel within a few days!
- Israel was targeting the Hamas police station. There is only one photo with police casualties, so you are being biased. People die in war, so wars should be avoided from the humanitarian view. In reality, war is sometimes unavoidable.
- I hate Israel! I hate Israel for being too soft and weak!! I hate Israel for not completely eradicating the Hamas terrorist organization!!!! The people of China firmly supports the righteous actions of Israel!!!! We support the almighty Israel, and justice will triumph over evil!!!!!
- Hamas provoked this action.
- I don't feel any pity, I only feel joy! That bunch of misogynist trash deserve to die!
- Why not send in a nuclear bomb? This is not exciting.
- There were old people, women and children in there. This is too tragic!
- Israel was making a precision attack on a military target. If there are women and children in there, then they had been placed there intentionally.
- When the action is so drastic, civilian may be inadvertently hurt. But is there another way to deal with terrorists?
- Democracy is so wonderful because you can kill people anytime.
- Hamas fired rockets in Israel several days ago. Israel has warned them many times that they will act against Hamas. If Israel does not have a democratic government, they would have wiped out Hamas a long time ago. You should be saying that democracy is a nuisance because you cannot retaliate at will even after you were attacked by rockets.
- After seeing the injured women and children, I am more certain that Hamas is just a bunch of cowards who hide behind women and children.
Granted, this could easily be the mainland equivalent of Orney, but its fascinating to see the unintended consequences in action. Its like the flipside of the "city upon a hill" rhetoric.
I'm kind of curious if the Indian reaction is now more sympathetic to Israel's actions due to the Mumbai incident or not. But they don't seem to have a similar aggregate on GV.
posted
Umm, so, one guy on ornery advocating genocide against the palestinians, and like 10 guys on another forum advocating genocide, makes this other forum the chinese ornery?
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I am aware of this and find it an atrocity. But you are still ignoring what has happened in the occupied territories. Point me to another country which has in this century taken territory from another people in an military action and continues to occupy that territory, refuses to grant citizenship to residents of the territory but gives land in that territory to its own citizens without compensation to the original people who occupied the land.
The vast majority of so-called Palestinians did not own any of the land there. Some of them lived there, yes, but the land was owned by rich Arabs in Syria. And they'd stolen the land there in the first place.
The irony is that even though we were simply coming home, we paid exorbinant prices for our own land, because we wanted to be better than everyone. The Arabs simply couldn't stand the idea of a non-Arab/Muslim polity in an Arab/Muslim sea, and they reacted by killing us.
We owe them nothing. There was no Palestinian nationality, no Palestinian polity. There were some poor Arabs who lived in southern Syria, in the Palestine district. They were more than happy to see the Jews get slaughtered by the six Arab armies that invaded in 1948. That's their "naqba". That's their disaster. Instead of standing with their neighbors, they stood with others against us. And they lost everything. Pardon me while I pretend to weep.
I know a woman from Upper Nazareth. It's a town near the Arab village of Nazareth that was built by Jews. She used to have an Arab next door neighbor with whom she was on friendly terms. One day in the weeks leading up to the Six Day War in 1967, she came into her kitchen and saw the neighbor rummaging through things. When she asked her what she was doing, the Arab woman told her very matter-of-factly that after the Jews were cleaned out, this home was going to be hers, so she wanted to familiarize herself with it.
This was before the "occupied territories of 1967", Rabbit. When Arabs held Gaza and Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank"), what was bugging them then? Those horrible Israelis and how they treated the occupied Arabs?
Israel gave full citizenship to every Arab within the 1949 armistice lines. We have a f*cking Arab minister in the government. Meanwhile, Jews are not allowed to own property in Jordan, with whom we supposedly have peace.
The Arabs want Israel destroyed. They have zero interest in allowing any Jewish state to exist in the region, and they will fight and die to destroy us.
I used to visit a kibbutz called Ein Tzurim, over by Ashkelon. The original Ein Tzurim, along with the whole settlement bloc of Gush Etzion, south of Jerusalem, was built and settled by Jews prior to 1948. They bought the land that was owned by others, and they took land that was unowned, and they built thriving towns.
In 1948, the Arabs came in and massacred all of the Jews there who didn't manage to escape. And when I say "massacre", I don't mean that they were killed during air attacks, I mean they were butchered with full intent.
Some of the people who managed to escape founded a new Ein Tzurim on the coast. And in 1967, when the Arabs tried -- again -- to wipe Israel off the map, we resettled Gush Etzion, and built a new kibbutz called Rosh Tzurim where the original Ein Tzurim had been.
Occupied territory my arse.
We had settlements in what is now Jordan. Do we get those back? We lost them, not because we launched a war against Jordan, but because Great Britain decided to give 79% of what was then Palestine to an Arabian prince named Abdullah as an emirate called Transjordan. When the UN decided to give Israel less than 50% of the land west of the Jordan, that wasn't 50% of Palestine, Rabbit. That was 50% of the 21% that was left. The Palestinians have had a state longer than Israel has existed. It's called Jordan. Those who chose to stay in Judea/Samaria after we took it back from Jordan in 1967 and those who chose to stay in Gaza after we reclaimed it from Egypt in 1967, well, that was their choice. It doesn't confer any kind of rights on them.
Incidentally, in the town of Efrat, in Gush Etzion, where I used to live, an Arab man showed up one day and said that an area near the center of town was his property. He was asked for proof, and he presented papers. The town council looked at the papers, which were for a small vineyard, less than a city block on a side, and saw that he was telling the truth. So they made sure that all building the area would bypass the piece of property, and every day, this Arab man would come in and tend his vines.
This was a town where every adult male was required to do guard duty on a rotation schedule throughout the year to protect us from terrorist attacks. These were right wing "settler extremists".
We have more than bent over backwards for the Arabs. But they don't want anything less than everything. And they can't have that.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: There are still at least 2 and a half million Palestinians living in Israeli occupied territory who have not taken residence in any country that has expelled its Jewish population. Many of them have been living in refuge camps for decades.
By choice. Israel has, over and over, tried to build towns for these Arabs to live. And every time, the Arabs have gone berserk at the suggestion. Because to accept nice homes would be to acknowledge that Israel is there to stay. And they can't do that.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: If John is forced from his home by Peter, and Paul is forced from his home by Mary, it doesn't constitute justice for Mary to give Paul's home to John while Paul is still left homeless -- even if Paul and Peter happen to belong to the same ethnic group.
Right. Mary (Rome) forced Paul (the Jews) out of our land. While we were forceably exiled, the Arabs came in and conquered it. We do not lose our ownership of our land under such circumstances. International law speaks about how long such claims are considered valid, and it's so long as the forceably exiled people continue to vocally maintain their ownership and intent to return. Which we've done more than 3 times a day since the Romans booted us out of our own land.
I'm so very sorry about the Arabs who were squatting on our land, but we're home, and they have no rights to our land.
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: You know what, I'm an idiot. I'm sorry. I totally read your post wrong
Thats quite alright, no apology is needed. I thought there was a miscommunication, but didn't know what.
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