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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Did the Palin thread go somewhere? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Did the Palin thread go somewhere?
El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You owe the forum an explanation and an apology.

I disagree. And who died and appointed you mod?
I didn't realize you had to be forum mod to express an opinion.
When you express your opinions at FACT, then it gives the impression that you're not aware that they are opinions.

Gee, it's lucky you didn't start a thread about your posting style about a month ago where this exact point was raised by a small handful of people.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I imagine there are only two real reasons to delete a thread

Your lack of empathy is your problem. Wanting something that is causing you pain to go away is a perfectly valid reason, IMO.

I'm okay with that, and I'd say that falls under the umbrella of my first example. Like I said a couple posts up, I think some people have perfectly valid reasons for deleting a post, and I don't begrudge them that. I'm not sure what your problem is with that.

I think however that a warning, in such a situation, would be courteous.

[ February 09, 2009, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:

Everything else posited is wrong.

Yes, of course. Anything anyone says is always wrong, always, even if it's right, it's wrong. Wrong. What I'm writing right now? Wrong. The fact that I said it was wrong is also wrong.
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Tarrsk
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I imagine there are only two real reasons to delete a thread

Your lack of empathy is your problem. Wanting something that is causing you pain to go away is a perfectly valid reason, IMO.
Running away and hiding in your room when your parents make you angry may be "valid," but it's also immature. As is deleting a thread because the direction the discussion went makes you upset. This doubly so if you were, as much as anyone, contributing to the generally toxic tone of the thread.

It could also be argued that deleting other people's posts without their permission or any warning causes them "pain." Several posters here have already stated that they were dismayed at katharina's actions for that reason. Where's your empathy for them?

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Rabbit, instead of speaking for the forum, why not be forthright? Say "I believe you owe me an apology for deleting my words without warning."

Let's check with the board on this one...

quote:
Originally Posted by Hatrack:
Tom Davidson is a stupid face.

[Wink]
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advice for robots
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I have deleted threads that made it to the bottom of the page without getting any substantial response. Why? Disgust. But I've never started a thread that flared into a big controversy, so I don't know what I would do in that situation.

I agree with TL. There has been some nastiness lately that is unbecoming of Hatrack. Time to get out of your trenches and shake hands, perhaps.

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Threads
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quote:
Originally posted by TL:
I'm getting frustrated, a little bit, with Hatrack. I wouldn't call it a sea change but I think we have three or four hatrackers who have just become ridiculously hostile toward other posters. More often than not, the purpose of their posts is to attack or run-down other people. They seem to forgive nothing, and they have mastered the art of being insulting without violating the terms of this board. Often, the behavior they abhor is behavior in which they themselves engage*. They have become the keepers of scores, the holders of grudges.

I agree though I would add that there is some context behind the most recent hostilities. Some posters have rubbed each other the wrong way* for too long and now can't give each other breathing room when it comes to minor errors/oversights. It's kind of suffocating when you have to worry about people trying to read 2 or 3 levels deep into your posts for implications that weren't put there intentionally.

* That's what she said.

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advice for robots
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There is also the practice of not backing down an inch even when it's not an important point. Not apologizing for rude behavior but defending it to the hilt instead. Saving up insults and minor errors just to hurl them back at a strategic moment and undercut the discussion. There's not much honor or respect in it at all.
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Jhai
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I didn't realize you had to be forum mod to express an opinion.

When you express your opinions at FACT, then it gives the impression that you're not aware that they are opinions.

Gee, it's lucky you didn't start a thread about your posting style about a month ago where this exact point was raised by a small handful of people.

That's not exactly fair. People talk all the time about things that aren't fact without putting an "in my opinion" or "I think" in front of them. For instance, see the first sentence of this paragraph. Or any discussion about god or politics, or economics, or anything else. Expecting a disclaimer whenever someone posts something that isn't an objective fact is silly. Especially when it's on a topic where there are clearly disputes over what is true and what isn't - or do you think that it's unclear that what is right & moral is an open question?

And that last bit was a little petty and stated in a mean-spirited way. IMO, of course.

Edit: I think it's also reasonable to point out that in your first sentence you're expressing your opinion as a fact, when, in fact, it is not. And I explicitly disagree with that expressed opinion.

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MrSquicky
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It seems to me that you are saying that there are no legitimate problems, that the issues people with some others are all minor.

I think that many people do not see it that way. I know I don't.

So it kind of sounds like "Your concerns are stupid. Let's just ignore them."

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advice for robots
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Well, some concerns are only going to generate more friction if addressed. They're not stupid, but they're not constructive either.

The stakes have gotten inflated enough here that giving an inch is akin to ceding your control of the hill and losing all face. I think concessions are the currency of civilized discussion.

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Threads
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The key is addressing those concerns in a productive manner.

EDIT: In general that would mean ignoring them. People can tell when other people are being snots so there's rarely a need to call someone out over it.

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by Jhai:
quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I didn't realize you had to be forum mod to express an opinion.

When you express your opinions at FACT, then it gives the impression that you're not aware that they are opinions.

Gee, it's lucky you didn't start a thread about your posting style about a month ago where this exact point was raised by a small handful of people.

That's not exactly fair. People talk all the time about things that aren't fact without putting an "in my opinion" or "I think" in front of them. For instance, see the first sentence of this paragraph. Or any discussion about god or politics, or economics, or anything else. Expecting a disclaimer whenever someone posts something that isn't an objective fact is silly. Especially when it's on a topic where there are clearly disputes over what is true and what isn't - or do you think that it's unclear that what is right & moral is an open question?

And that last bit was a little petty and stated in a mean-spirited way. IMO, of course.

Edit: I think it's also reasonable to point out that in your first sentence you're expressing your opinion as a fact, when, in fact, it is not. And I explicitly disagree with that expressed opinion.

I am, you may have noticed, the third person to comment on Rabbit's phrasing in that particular post. So it's not the happily general 'people' you claim -- it's a specific person. Since she just started a thread genuinely asking for feedback on her posting style (a thread in which this specific observation was raised, acknowledged, and discussed), I think I'm entitled to be a little annoyed with her that it appears to have done no good.

You are free to disagree with my methods, and, since I care less than nothing about your opinion on my posting style, I'm free to disregard your nitpicky, inane complaints.

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TomDavidson
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Is it possible to care less than nothing? How would that manifest itself?
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katharina
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As a cheetah, I think.
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I was going to post the same thing as Jhai but didn't. Rabbit's post did not come off as a factual claim to me.
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advice for robots
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Maybe that's where all the dark matter comes from.
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kmbboots
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Nor me.
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MrSquicky
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quote:
Well, some concerns are only going to generate more friction if addressed.
I think that very much depends on the manner in which they are address. Your contributions make up what I see as an important part of this, but it seems like they are directed towards trying to convince people that they shouldn't address any concerns and to dismiss them all as not legitimate.
quote:
I think concessions are the currency of civilized discussion.
I agree, but the key is that that only works with people who are working in good faith.
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MrSquicky
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Nor me.

edit: It's been common practice at Hatrack to not have to preface everything that is clearly an opinion with "I think...", "In my opinion..." or some similar.

There are times where it can help to soften what you are saying by including it, but I'm very glad that most people here understand that it is not needed.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Rabbit, instead of speaking for the forum, why not be forthright? Say "I believe you owe me an apology for deleting my words without warning."

I don't think I'm the one she needs to apologize to. I don't think I contributed much of substance to the thread. I thought others did. I did not mean to be condescending or to overstep my authority. I'm sorry that it came across that way.

The thread in question contained over 6 pages and hundreds of posts. I think its disrespectful when anyone deletes that much of other peoples efforts. While I can imagine circumstances that might warrant such an action, I think that in those circumstances, an explanation and an apology are the minimum required by common courtesy.

If you disagree, that is your prerogative. I have no ability or right to enforce my views of what constitutes courtesy. I don't, however, think its out of line for me to express those views.

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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As soon as one person starts talking about what another person owes, the question of "to whom" doesn't matter. I can't make kat do anything, but I am very much in the business of telling people what I think they should do, and I think she owes an apology to the forum. I'm with Rabbit, and I wish future thread deleting people would post some sort of explanation, like a brief.

And just so my opinion on the other matter doesn't get forgotten, I also thought Palin got a raw deal by a snobby media.

[ February 09, 2009, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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natural_mystic
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I think that there should be a change in the rules for thread deletion reflecting the fact that contributors have a claim on the thread's ownership as well.

Academically, I am curious about why Kat deleted it.

For the record, I think many of the criticisms of Palin were substantive, that she was a poor candidate and it is a very good thing that she is not next in line for the presidency.

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advice for robots
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I'm sorry for coming off that way. It's not the concern itself but the intent for which it was addressed. If it will help resolve the discussion, fine, but if it is just being used as a bludgeon, is it really going to contribute anything? So many good discussions have been falling apart because of this lack of restraint.

If we can't have enough good faith to concede when needed and have that concession accepted graciously, we aren't being too productive. That good faith should be restored.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Rabbit, instead of speaking for the forum, why not be forthright? Say "I believe you owe me an apology for deleting my words without warning."

Tom, When you ask "why not be forthright?", you presume that I meant something other than what I said. You were wrong and in my opinion, using a word like "forthright" rather than "honest" doesn't make it polite to accuse people of dishonesty.
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Mucus
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For future use, can some posters in this thread list some polite ways of accusing them of dishonesty just in case I need to do that?

It seems that it might be a useful thing to know in these parts.

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T:man
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quote:
Originally posted by TL:
It's not you, dummy.

HE CALLED ME DUMMY THATS A PERSONAL ATTACK BAN HIM!
[Mad]

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Jhai
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(Pssst! Mucus, I think Rabbit's point was that it's impolite to accuse people of dishonesty, period, whether you wrap it in "nicer" words such as forthright or not.)

And I agree with her. That said, politeness isn't the be-all & end-all, and politeness also isn't the same thing as civility. You can be impolite while still being civil. At least in the ways I consider civility & politeness.

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EmpSquared
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quote:
quote:
I think concessions are the currency of civilized discussion.
I agree, but the key is that that only works with people who are working in good faith. [/QB]
A place like Hatrack should be able to do this, and we have in the past.

I'm also gonna venture out and say that it's this specific issue that causes the most grief here, and is why Hatrack has lost its illustrious sheen.

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Mucus
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Jhai: Perhaps. But that would seem to be unfortunate since there really should be a polite way of expressing the sentiment, "Are you sure you really meant Y, perhaps you meant X" for whatever reason whether its the heat of the moment, or an over-generalization, an opinion dressed as a fact, etc.

In other words, as the point about concessions hinted at, there has *got* to be some way of pointing out the potential for a de-escalation while still providing the poster with a way to not lose face.

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MattP
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quote:
People can tell when other people are being snots so there's rarely a need to call someone out over it.
This is the single most important thing to keep in mind when faced with an annoyingly condescending, sarcastic, snide jerk of a poster. If you're the only one who sees it then you're probably wrong, and if you're not then there's no need to point it out. The type of people who this applies to generally don't accept criticism well, which removes the only other productive* justification for providing it.

*Edit: To replace "valid" with "productive". Getting some personal satisfaction for telling them off may be a valid reason. [Smile]

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Jhai
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Jhai: Perhaps. But that would seem to be unfortunate since there really should be a polite way of expressing the sentiment, "Are you sure you really meant Y, perhaps you meant X" for whatever reason whether its the heat of the moment, or an over-generalization, an opinion dressed as a fact, etc.

In other words, as the point about concessions hinted at, there has *got* to be some way of pointing out the potential for a de-escalation while still providing the poster with a way to not lose face.

Oh, I think there's a large difference between saying "you aren't being honest here." and "are you sure you meant <blank>?", don't you? The first requires that you think the poster is intentionally lying or intentionally saying something other than they mean. The second requires you to simply think that perhaps the poster miswrote, didn't understand the topic, etc. The second is the charitable interpretation - one that I see, for instance, CT showing a lot.
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scifibum
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Not a bad rule: WWCTD.
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Noemon
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The problem with following WWCTD is that she's so very prim and respectable. Before you knew it, half the forum would have been overcome by vapors if we were successful in emulating her.

Plus, when we weren't rendered unconscious by vapors, we'd be far too busy posting hilarious things and then editing them out before Noe^^1 everyone had a chance to read them.

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Orincoro
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Well, she would send me cookies... so the moral of the story is: send me cookies.
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scifibum
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CT works in a hospital, IIRC. I'm pretty sure she's powered through vapors that would reduce a lumberjack to tears.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Several posters here have already stated that they were dismayed at katharina's actions for that reason. Where's your empathy for them?

It disappeared about the time most of those same people played "bait katharina" -- for about 2-3 of the final pages of the thread in question.
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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I'm pretty sure she's powered through vapors that would reduce a lumberjack to tears.

Yeah, but lumberjacks are notorious crybabies. Everybody knows that.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Academically, I am curious about why Kat deleted it.
Academically? I still have the thread in cache. I just took a look. Providing the educated answer at this point in time would just be considered rabble-rousing, though, so

Ps: Regardless as to whether hatrack is having an presumed crisis over discord, this incident yet again proves that the ability for an op to delete a thread is pretty much an incredibly stupid idea

pps: said more directly: hey everybody, the forum letting users delete threads is so amazingly stupid. can you petition to change it? does the forum get to put it to a vote or sommat?

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Tarrsk
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Several posters here have already stated that they were dismayed at katharina's actions for that reason. Where's your empathy for them?

It disappeared about the time most of those same people played "bait katharina" -- for about 2-3 of the final pages of the thread in question.
Again, katharina did plenty of "baiting" in the thread herself. I'm not defending that sort of behavior, but if you're going to look down your nose at people because of it, you should at least be consistent about it.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Several posters here have already stated that they were dismayed at katharina's actions for that reason. Where's your empathy for them?

It disappeared about the time most of those same people played "bait katharina" -- for about 2-3 of the final pages of the thread in question.
That's rather uncharitable of you rivka. Unless the thread deteriorated badly after I last saw it (which is possible since it was definitely on a down hill slide at that point) there were a number of civil, reasoned, well written posts on those last couple of pages that didn't deserve to be deleted. I specifically remember posts by Humean, Chris Bridges and Kwea none whom were involved in baiting katharina.

The problem with deleting a thread is that it throws out everything, not just the posts that hurt or angered you. Unless every bit of the thread was rubish, you end out throwing out the baby with the bath water. I thought some of the posts in that thread were good enough to be considered "baby".

Despite Tom's rather uncharitable assertions, I'm actually glad to have my participation in the earlier half of that thread deleted. I'm ashamed of the way I behaved earlier in that thread. But I wasn't the only one who posted there. Some people actually were civil and engaged in a civilized discussion. Deleting the thread was disrespectful to them.

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Alcon
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Yikes...

When'd everyone get so angry? I mean, I've noticed the drop in tone around here, but I mostly figured that was the neo-cons and libertarians venting about Obama getting elected. I hadn't realized quite so much general animosity had been building up. What's the deal folks?

I know we can't all get along all the time. I know we're gonna have fights and disagreements. Considering what we discuss around here we're gonna have pretty intense ones and fairly often. But where's all this just sort of general frustration and animosity coming from? Seems like almost everyone posting in this thread has been immediately attacked by someone else. Viciously. Even those posting to say "Hey, chill!" Have been gutted. What gives guys?

(Yes, I know I'm probably going to get garroted too since I have now posted in here. I warn you, I practice peaceful non-violence, so watch out!)

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Again, katharina did plenty of "baiting" in the thread herself.

I didn't say otherwise.
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Noemon
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Well said, Alcon. There's been a lot more hostility around here lately than there used to be. It isn't uncommon to see members calling each other names, or insulting another Hatracker's post rather than engaging and actually refuting the points that they disagree about. Add to that a number of simmering animosities that have frequently been boiling over lately, and the result is a forum that doesn't look or act much like Hatrack has traditionally looked or acted. It's unfortunate. We can do a lot better than we have been, lately.
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Samprimary
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quote:
When'd everyone get so angry?
When stupid and aggravating stuff starts becoming par for the course by frequent posters, aggravated responses result.

This is little different than how people acted when resh was a frequent poster, or when X, Y, Z before him. it is going to happen unless the forum is one that installs a heavy-handed hold-hands-and-never-say-meanie-things rule.

Invited responses are invited, etc

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TL
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Just a general NO BULLYING rule would be better.
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The Genuine
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As the Ambassador of Right On and Headmaster of Sakeriver, I invite you all to leave this acrimonious place and have some Sake. It's all fluffy kittens and rainbows over there.
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Humean316
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quote:
Just a general NO BULLYING rule would be better.
I don't think we need that. I think we need this thread actually...
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Lyrhawn
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I'd agree if I thought this thread was actually some sort of catharsis.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I imagine there are only two real reasons to delete a thread

Your lack of empathy is your problem. Wanting something that is causing you pain to go away is a perfectly valid reason, IMO.

And I have explained as much before. Do we have to have this round of navel-gazing-without-purpose again?

quote:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Several posters here have already stated that they were dismayed at katharina's actions for that reason. Where's your empathy for them?

It disappeared about the time most of those same people played "bait katharina" -- for about 2-3 of the final pages of the thread in question.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Again, katharina did plenty of "baiting" in the thread herself.

I didn't say otherwise.
I'm really not following you here. If it doesn't have anything to do with who was baiting, why do you find that kat is deserving of more empathy than the people whose work she chose to trash?
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