quote:Originally posted by lem: All I know is that circumcised men miss out on the pure awesomeness of making a urine bubble by pinching off the tip of the foreskin.
quote:I don't know if there was ever an official study done, but it IS something women discretely giggle at over wine.
Since I have no use for women that act that way, I really wouldn't care what they thought. If I had a son, I'd not want him to end up with a woman like that.
But then I view sexual activity as not something to be chatted about with friends. There's a reason it's called "being intimate" with someone after all.
Society pressures all of us in so many ways. Can't we keep a few things private? It has nothing to do with shame, despite the Big Lie Straw Man that any sort of body modesty is shame based. Yet pressure from the public on what is one of the most private things causes us to amputate and mutilate infant boys. It's barbaric.
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I would think it possible to discuss likes and dislikes without getting into specific people and who has what. Fair's fair, it's not as though men don't discuss what shapes they like best. In my experience, though, such discussions are rather theoretical.
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posted
I have had enough experience with both kinds to realize that each one is different anyway and each has their own quirks and charms. Foreskin is only one factor and isn't a big deal either way.
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quote:I don't know if there was ever an official study done, but it IS something women discretely giggle at over wine.
Since I have no use for women that act that way, I really wouldn't care what they thought. If I had a son, I'd not want him to end up with a woman like that.
But then I view sexual activity as not something to be chatted about with friends. There's a reason it's called "being intimate" with someone after all.
Society pressures all of us in so many ways. Can't we keep a few things private? It has nothing to do with shame, despite the Big Lie Straw Man that any sort of body modesty is shame based. Yet pressure from the public on what is one of the most private things causes us to amputate and mutilate infant boys. It's barbaric.
I disagree entirely. I think it shouldn't be quite so taboo to discuss sex and sexuality. In the few cases when I've been able to open up with close friends I've learned things that have greatly benefited both me and my husband.
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quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: I know there are many people like you, that were left intact but wish it had been done. But you're in the vast minority.
It's great that there are circumcised people that don't care and don't feel mutilated. There are a lot of people that do, however.
You may be right that people who wish they were circumcised are in the minority. But I believe you are also in the vast minority. As a circumcised man, I just can't understand your outrage.
FGM is mutilation. Physical abuse to the point of permanent scarring is mutilation. What was done to us is nothing by comparison, and I don't think we have a right to put it at that level. It isn't about being fashionable. It's about health, and I personally don't see why a tiny piece of skin is worth the risk.
Not that I have a problem with parents not circumcising their child. It is their choice. For me though, I'm glad my parents did it. If I have a son, he will be circumcised.
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quote:I don't know if there was ever an official study done, but it IS something women discretely giggle at over wine.
Since I have no use for women that act that way, I really wouldn't care what they thought. If I had a son, I'd not want him to end up with a woman like that.
You don't want your hypothetical son to end up with women that are open enough to discuss their sexuality with friends?
quote:Can't we keep a few things private?
Yes. Should we be forced to?
quote:Yet pressure from the public on what is one of the most private things causes us to amputate and mutilate infant boys. It's barbaric.
posted
Just for the record, what I was talking about wasn't women talking (or giggling) about specific sexual experiences. I just meant talking about the SUBJECT of circumcision. Most women (in my experience) have an opinion on which they think LOOKS better, though in all honesty I'm not sure how much of it is based on actual experience - and very few were crude enough to give any explicit details on anything more than mere looking.
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If my potential future spouse thought I would look better with parts of me chopped off, I think rather than chop parts of me off, I'd look harder for a potential future spouse.
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quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Just for the record, what I was talking about wasn't women talking (or giggling) about specific sexual experiences. I just meant talking about the SUBJECT of circumcision. Most women (in my experience) have an opinion on which they think LOOKS better, though in all honesty I'm not sure how much of it is based on actual experience - and very few were crude enough to give any explicit details on anything more than mere looking.
This is my general experience as well. Few specifics, mostly generalized comments, and a very short-lived conversation.
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote: I don't know if there was ever an official study done, but it IS something women discretely giggle at over wine.
People in Jr. High shouldn't be drinking wine.
In my opinion, girls in Jr. High (aka Middle School these days) shouldn't be talking about boys that way anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: If my potential future spouse thought I would look better with parts of me chopped off, I think rather than chop parts of me off, I'd look harder for a potential future spouse.
And yet girls and guys pierce and puncture many parts of their bodies in an effort to look attractive.
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Yes; but would you marry (or date) someone who demanded that your nipples be pierced before they would consider it? Or even just that you wear some makeup? There is a difference between "I'm doing this to look good for X" and "X makes me do this or he/she won't date me."
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: If my potential future spouse thought I would look better with parts of me chopped off, I think rather than chop parts of me off, I'd look harder for a potential future spouse.
And yet girls and guys pierce and puncture many parts of their bodies in an effort to look attractive.
But they do it for themselves, because they want it due to subtle cultural socialization that has made a piercing seem attractive. There's a big difference between that and being outright told to mutilate your body.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: If my potential future spouse thought I would look better with parts of me chopped off, I think rather than chop parts of me off, I'd look harder for a potential future spouse.
And yet girls and guys pierce and puncture many parts of their bodies in an effort to look attractive.
But they do it for themselves, because they want it due to subtle cultural socialization that has made a piercing seem attractive. There's a big difference between that and being outright told to mutilate your body.
Yes I'm sure every single young girl who has had their ears pierced by their parents was completely in a position to decide for themselves if they wanted it.
Also there used to be a "subtle cultural" opinion that circumcised penises looked attractive. It isn't as strong as piercings but nonetheless I believe has existed.
When I was a baby I had an extra piece of cartilage on my ear and my parents had it removed because it looked different was that also "mutilation?"
I think at this age and this could just be a mental construct that I'd want to be circumcised. I would much rather have gotten it done right after birth than now as it incapacitates you for quite some time as an adult.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... Yes I'm sure every single young girl who has had their ears pierced by their parents was completely in a position to decide for themselves if they wanted it.
*shrug* Maybe they should have waited until she was ready to decide.
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My girls get to decide whether they want to have their ears pierced when they are eight years old.
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At least if you change your mind about a piercing, you can remove the earring or other metal parts and let the hole close back up over time. It leaves a small scar, not a missing body part, you know? There's a difference.
I'm not particularly in favor of parents having their kids pierced before the kid is old enough to decide. But it's a lot less bad than parents cutting off parts of their kids' bodies.
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The use of the word mutilation is itself highly inflammatory.
OED defines mutilation as
quote:The act or process of disabling or maiming a person by wounding a limb or organ.
I think it serious hyperbole to claim that circumcision is disabling or maiming. There is no conclusive evidence that circumcision decreases sexual pleasure and certainly none that it decreases function. Circumcision is certainly an unnecessary medical procedure and I can see reasons why people would find it undesirable -- but calling it "mutilation" is really over the top.
Couldn't we settle on a civil noninflammatory term like "alteration" that does not automatically label those who disagree as evil?
For decades in the US, circumcision was recommended by most physicians for health reasons and was widely accepted as the social norm. The medical opinions have changed and social norms in the US are changing too, but that doesn't change the past. Even if you think circumcision is undesirable, it seems unfair to condemn parents who chose to do what doctors recommended and everyone else did because decades later we question the validity of that medical opinion.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Couldn't we settle on a civil noninflammatory term like "alteration" that does not automatically label those who disagree as evil?
I second that request.
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quote:At least if you change your mind about a piercing, you can remove the earring or other metal parts and let the hole close back up over time. It leaves a small scar, not a missing body part, you know? There's a difference.
Not unless you change your mind before the piercing has fully healed. I had my ears pierced when I was a teenager. I don't regret it but earing bother my ears so I haven't worn earrings on a regular basis for at least 25 years and my holes have not closed back up. I do occasionally wear them when I'm getting really dressed up for something formal but that happens very rarely. I'm sure I haven't worn earrings in over a year now and the holes are still there.
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I watched a circumcision during my pediatrics rotation and I found it horrible to watch. I am pretty sure they used a glucose dropper and no anesthesia. It was also well known among the residents that this very quick procedure was worth money to the hospital ($400+ as mentioned by someone else earlier). There are several methods of circumcision including the gomco clamp (here is how it is used), disposable clamp, and free form. Drawings of penises included above but no photographs.
Of course there are a lot of procedures that could easily fall under the category "barbaric" or "gross" of which I felt this was one. Others included drilling into bones, skin grafting, liver biopsy at the bedside, and wound care in the vascular surgery dept.
I wouldn't choose it to be done. I think the medical benefits are miniscule compared to the seriousness of the procedure.
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I'm sure you'd feel the same way if someone chopped off your labia minora, likewise a flap of skin.
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So, "parents cutting off parts of their kids' bodies" is wrong, but its okay if they think its what God wants?
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quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: So, "parents cutting off parts of their kids' bodies" is wrong, but its okay if they think its what God wants?
That's surprising to you? Many religions view killing as wrong, unless god says it's okay. Why would circumcision be different?
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It's mutilation, clear and simple. It's only accepted because people think it's normal...just like female genital mutilation is accepted in certain parts of the world because, hey, it's what everyone does!
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: rivka, I'm not against religious circumcision, just to make it clear.
How do you justify this? If we were talking about female circumcision or the amputation of a finger conducted in accordance with a religion, I assume that you would condemn them?
Presumably the key issue is that, for the vast majority of boys circumcised, there is no degradation in quality of life. And this is true whether the circumcision is done for religious reasons or not.
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quote:SUBJECTS AND METHODS The study included 373 sexually active men, of whom 255 were circumcised and 118 were not. Of the 255 circumcised men, 138 had been sexually active before circumcision, and all were circumcised at >20 years of age. As the Brief Male Sexual Function Inventory does not specifically address the quality of sex life, questions were added to compare sexual and masturbatory pleasure before and after circumcision.
RESULTS There were no significant differences in sexual drive, erection, ejaculation, and ejaculation latency time between circumcised and uncircumcised men. Masturbatory pleasure decreased after circumcision in 48% of the respondents, while 8% reported increased pleasure. Masturbatory difficulty increased after circumcision in 63% of the respondents but was easier in 37%. About 6% answered that their sex lives improved, while 20% reported a worse sex life after circumcision.
posted
Eh. Self-reported effects on a small sample. And an atypical one at that, since not many people are circumsized as adults.
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This looks interesting. I can't view the link, so will hold off commenting until I read at least a bit more of the paper.
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posted March 13, 2009 06:55 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by rivka:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Tatiana: It leaves a small scar, not a missing body part, you know? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you call the foreskin if it's not a body part?
Hyperbole to me is getting punched in the mouth so hard that the teeth get rammed down your throat making it necessary to sit on your food to eat it. But what do I know about subtle hyperbole? Then that might be an oxymoron.
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