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Author Topic: Duct Tape + Anne Coulter = good
Mocke
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What I read in her article was essentially that there is a link between single mothers and societies ills. And that part was thought provoking. But to call them raging sluts who should have kept their legs shut is to ignore the actual causes of the problems.
1. That this is, in some cases, cyclical, and has been happening for generations. And the fix is not to chastise the mothers, but attack the root of the problem...somehow.
2. The other portion are, as stated before, mothers who escaped some terrible relationship. I wouldn't be calling these mothers any names though. Of course, I would imagine people who denounce them also think that the women did something to deserve their beatings.

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Reshpeckobiggle
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quote:
Originally posted by Sterling
Because an indeterminate number of those "problems" are caused by society's attitudes and reactions towards illegitimate children and the parents who bear them, not those children or the parents themselves.

No they're not.

Unless by "indeterminate," you mean "a number so small or inconsequential that it cannot be factored." But I doubt you meant that because then you would have no point. Which you don't anyway.

quote:
If more employers and educators made child care available, raising a child alone wouldn't mean curtailing all ambitions towards personal betterment for so many people.
So someone else should take up the slack for the mistakes of another. Hey, why don't we just put them all on welfare? Oh wait...

Oh the poor single mothers. If only they hadn't screwed up their lives, and then refused to allow their child to be adopted by one of the many willing adoptors who are on a waiting list for years and years.

Rather than dream up yet more government plans to help poor young promiscuous women make the choice to get pregnant, thereby ensuring a lifetime of government assistance, why don't we start placing the blame where blame is due and simply remove all incentives for continuing this scourge on American society? Why not? Oh, 'cause it's mean. Oh, sorry. Let's not be mean here. Let's just flush society down the toilet. So long as we're nice about it.

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Reshpeckobiggle
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In fact...
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling
Because an indeterminate number of those "problems" are caused by society's attitudes and reactions towards illegitimate children and the parents who bear them, not those children or the parents themselves.

That is actually the problem. It is the lack of those attitudes that is the problem. It used to be: "You had a child out of wedlock? Kiss all respectability goodbye, you little tramp."

But now, "we should give the poor woman special treatment! It's not her fault! She only wanted a night of fleeting pleasure! Probably many times, with many men, but even if it was only the one time, it's not like she had the baby. More like... the baby happened, and she's just the victim in this tragedy. The condom broke! Not her fault! Let's give her someone else's money. What a hero!"

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Vadon
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Let me see if I have your argument straight here. If I don't, please correct me.

You don't want the government or society to coddle single mothers simply based upon the fact that they're a single mother, right? You think it creates an incentive for out of wedlock child-birth because it lets women get into a non-stop welfare program with things like WIC. The statistics show that criminals tend to come from single parent households. Therefore, your solution to decreasing this problem is to create a disincentive for women to have pre-marital sex. By taking away the social programs that assist single mothers, they will no longer engage in sex. This stops the illegitimate births and should therefore solve many problems including crime, huge spending on bad programs, and the moral degregation of society.

That is your argument, right?

Well, I have some major problems with it. [Smile]

I'm actually really sleepy and not thinking straight, so I'll try to give you the brief summary of my contention against your words.

Basically, I believe that people are going to have sex no matter what, regardless of marriage. I don't believe in general deterrence theory. I don't think single women think, "Well, gee, I might just get pregnant from these here shenanigans I'm about to pursue. But I don't have to worry if I do, 'cause the government will take care of me!" It may just be with me, but foreplay doesn't usually include tallying up the number of government handouts my counterpart would receive should she become pregnant.

But that's a minor concern to me. My biggest problem with your argument is that it doesn't punish the single-mothers. It punishes the children. These social programs are to try to help the children succeed in life and receive opportunities that may not have otherwise been given to them because of the lack of another parent. Many mothers would no longer be able to afford food or the rent for their children because they'd lose programs like SCHIP, and WIC. Ultimately, families would be ripped apart because the mother can simply no longer provide for her child. And if the mother were able to still provide for her child in spite of the new hardships accrued, the child has still had the hard conditions that often breed criminal behavior.

And mothers who become pregnant? They have three options available. 1. Raise the child on their own, and hope that they can make ends meet. 2. Give the child to another family to take care of (parents or adoption) or 3. Abortion.

What's so different from those options that would come from your plan as what a woman has today? Ultimately all your proposed plan would do is rip families apart and hurt the well being of the children. And quite possibly increase the number of abortions. I'm pretty sure that's not something you'd look favorably upon.

So my opinion? Keep the social programs in place, increase safe-sex education, and stop judging people that are under hardships we can't begin to comprehend. [Smile]

It's been fun! [Wave]

ETA: Oh, and I think putting the onus on women as you suggested previously is complete and utter bull. I'm pretty sure a man has control of who he has relations with. [Smile]

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0Megabyte
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Resh:

You are a Christian, are you not? Anyway, I was reading some interesting things. Perhaps you should take a look.

Matthew 7:1-5, 7-12; 18: 12-14

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
If men didn't have sex before marriage, the same "problems" would go away. As we've already gone through the Victorian and Puritan ages, perhaps it would make for an interesting change.

And contraception, and where that fails, abortion, can also prevent illegitimacy- under which conditions, a more thoughtful person than Coulter might recognize that many single mothers are actually very brave people, and hardly deserving to have such rancor thrust upon them.

Why did you put quotations around the word "problems?" 80 percent of the prison population was raised by single mothers, the majority of suicides, prostitutes, drug addicts and alcoholics were raised by single mothers. These are "problems."
]

You are so full of crap you probably squish as you walk.


It's nice to see that some things don't change. It is a shame your attitudes exist at all, but since they do it's not surprising that they haven't changed.

It isn't Coulter who makes me worry....she's obnoxious, but everyone expects her to be, even herself. It's how she makes her living.


It's you, and people like you. The fact that we survived 8 years of people like you amazes me.

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Blayne Bradley
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...


Talk about Refuge in Audacity.

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Kwea
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Resh...I'd like to apologize. What I said up there was not polite, and I would edit it except for the fact that it would look like I was trying to hide what I had said.


I don''t agree with you, and if you tried legislating your morality on me or my family I'd fight you tooth and nail, but that doesn't excuse me being that rude.

I'd like to see some backup stats on your claims, and the proof that the single parent families cause alcoholism, rather than it being the other way around. I doubt you'd be able to find any, as it isn't the case. BTW, quoting Coulter's book doesn't count. Neither do quotes from Rush. [Wink]

[ February 23, 2009, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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Mocke
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Resh - How come it falls on women? Because after the act, they get to carry the outward signs for 9 months? Because men are lecherous pigs and it falls to the women to be gatekeepers of sorts? because we have no way of accurately determining paternity?

no.
This whole punish the mother tirade seems a little misogynistic.

I once heard Dan Savage talk at length about how the homosexual male community engaged in mindless random sex at rates unparalleled by any other coupling, causing them all sorts of problems. He then called on the community to "release their inner woman" (the idea that the presence of the woman decreases random sexual encounters), and think before you hop in bed. So in the heterosexual community, why does it always fall to women? A man can just as easily keep it in his pants. It just takes a little self control and self respect.

Second, paternity can be much more easily determined in this day and age. Why should it fall to women alone when we can target the man in the equation?

Finally, you suggest adoption? Really? Well, go look at the number of single mothers, and out of wedlock birthrates, then look at the number of people waiting to adopt. Include homosexuals at your leisure.

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Sterling
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I think whenever someone effectively makes the statement, "We should make sure those [single mothers/homosexuals/homeless people/black people/Jews/Catholics/Mormons/Japanese Americans/etc.] know they're not welcome here.", they probably say a lot more about themselves than they know. And a lot less about the target of their spite than they think.

Wanting to hold onto one's right to sneer, at the cost of preventing people from becoming functioning and contributing members of society, is no cause for self-congratulation.

Even if one can assume that every single single mother is nothing more than a hopelessly promiscuous person of little worth- which is the kind of overly simplistic non-thinking that brings into question one's own ability to function as an effective part in societal decision-making- the question ought to be how to make "those people", and especially their children, into people who can give back as much as they take.

Single mothers aren't going to go away. It isn't a question of shunning them or letting them be leeches on society. It's a question of dealing with them or pretending to.

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The Rabbit
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Why talk about single mothers? Isn't the real issue "Dead beat Dad's"?

Seriously, none of the statistics I've been able to find on single parent households distinguish between women who got pregnant on a one night stand, those who were part of a long term committed relationship and those who were actually married but are now divorced. Single mothers include all of the above and if my anecdotal experience is at all representative, most single mothers are divorced women. Unless Anne Coulter has access to some statistics that I can't find, her using statistics about "single mothers" to make inference about promiscuous women or even sex outside of marriage is fundamentally flawed.

On the other hand, with the rare exception of women who used "sperm banks", a father was every bit as involved in the conception of these children as the mother. These women aren't SINGLE parents because they got pregnant, they are SINGLE parents because the fathers of their children are not there sharing the responsibility..

[ February 25, 2009, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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SenojRetep
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Rabbit-

I agree that we as a society expect too little of these fathers. I couldn't agree more that "a father was every bit as involved int he conception of these children as the mother." I also think, though, that with increased expectations, fathers also need increased influence over decisions like adoption and abortion. Currently, mothers can make both those decisions without any input from fathers. I think that sort of societal inequity leads fathers, in such situations, to feel that they are extraneous, and to resent any increased expectation of action.

As far as statistics on whether single parents start that way or not, the current rate of out-of-wedlock birth is about 40%. So 4/10 of all children start life in single parent households. Of those single mothers, about 20% eventually marry, which leaves about 32% of the population who never live in a two-parent home. I imagine that unwed pregnancy is at least as big a cause of single parent households as divorce.

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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by SenojRetep:

As far as statistics on whether single parents start that way or not, the current rate of out-of-wedlock birth is about 40%. So 4/10 of all children start life in single parent households.

Not necessarily. An increasing number of couples are choosing to live together without ever formally getting married, even if they have kids. So those "out-of-wedlock" births are still in a two parent household.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Currently, mothers can make both those decisions without any input from fathers.
Not true for adoption. Of course it varies state by state, but in most states if the father is identified, an adoption can not go forward without his relinquishing his rights to the child.
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Mucus
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I wonder if a lesbian/gay same-sex couple in a state without same-sex marriage, with an adopted child from a surrogate would count as an "out-of-wedlock" birth. Maybe one should legalise same-sex marriage to bump up the stats.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
As far as statistics on whether single parents start that way or not, the current rate of out-of-wedlock birth is about 40%. So 4/10 of all children start life in single parent households. Of those single mothers, about 20% eventually marry, which leaves about 32% of the population who never live in a two-parent home. I imagine that unwed pregnancy is at least as big a cause of single parent households as divorce.
Can I ask for the source for these statistics since they do not match those from the center for disease control.
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SenojRetep
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I'll concede both points. However, according to this Princeton study, 60% of non-married parents split up in the first five years (with about 15% of them getting married, and the remaining 35% being split between those who never lived together and those who continue living together after five years).

As far as adoption, I know rules vary from state to state. But they shouldn't. If a father is a father he should have a say. I think the same is true of abortion. In both cases I can certainly see abusive situations (in both directions), where such rights need to be curtailed by the judicial system. But the default should be that both parents need to consent to either an abortion or an adoption.

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SenojRetep
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I got the aggregate stats from this article which has links to raw stats. The stats at the CDC seemed similar when I glanced at them. I attributed the difference to statistical noise in the different years of the studies and the numbers summarized by the CDC.
<edit>Yeah, according to the CDC the 2005 numbers (which were what I found on their website) show 36.9% of births being out-of-wedlock, and the 2006 numbers show an increase to 38.5%, which the author of the article I linked seems to have rounded up to 40%.</edit>

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Sterling
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
On the other hand, with the rare exception of women who used "sperm banks", a father was every bit as involved in the conception of these children as the mother. These women aren't SINGLE parents because they got pregnant, they are SINGLE parents because the fathers of their children are not there sharing the responsibility..

Amen!
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SenojRetep
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After briefly reviewing what I could find about biological father's rights, the situation seems both better and worse than I'd first understood. Most states now have "putative father registries" where you need to list yourself if you believe you are the father of a child. If you do not, you won't have standing to contest an adoption. The other requirements seem more reasonable: you've paid for some of the delivery costs, you've asserted paternity, signed the birth certificate, etc.

It does still vary state-to-state, but it seems that since the late 90s things have improved dramatically for biological fathers seeking to prevent adoptions. There's still inequity in the system, but most of that seems to me to be inherent inequity due to biology (a mother can hide a pregnancy from a father, but the reverse cannot be true).

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The Rabbit
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This study on custodial parents reports that only 30% of single custodial parents fall in the never married category, 57% are either divorced or separated and 22% are married (to someone other than the non-custodial parent, usually remarried).

So if we are talking about "Single Mothers" we are talking about a group that is overwhelmingly divorced and separated women not women who have never married.

There are so many problems with Anne Coulters use of statistics on children of single mothers to draw conclusion about the harms of women having premarital sex that its hard to even know where to begin.

First off, girls who live below poverty level are far more likely to become unmarried mothers. To have even a shred of credibility, any study of the influence of single motherhood on crime, drug abuse etc would have to control for poverty since poverty is extremely strongly correlated with all the problems Coulter blames on single mothers. Furthermore, since in most cases single mothers who are living below poverty level were living below poverty level before they got pregnant, it is irrational to conclude that having a child out of wedlock caused the poverty.

I'm not trying to defend promiscuity. I'm think people are in general far happier if they mate for life or at least strive for that than if they play the field. I think children are in most cases better off in a home with two loving parents. My problem is with Coulter laying the blame for all of societies ills on single mothers. Not only is this a gross over simplification of the problem, but it is also reflective of one of the main roots of the problem -- the tendency of society to place the burden for successful family life disproportionately on women.

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scholarette
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In our society, the only "sin" is getting caught. So it isn't promiscuity that is wrong, it is getting pregnant (or caught). Since the man didn't get caught, it is fine for him to sleep with as many women as he wants.
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natural_mystic
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
In our society, the only "sin" is getting caught. So it isn't promiscuity that is wrong, it is getting pregnant (or caught). Since the man didn't get caught, it is fine for him to sleep with as many women as he wants.

In fairness, the right is in favor of abstinence, one of the justifications of abortion is that allowing it does (up to a point) address the asymmetry in terms of consequences for non-marital encounters, and paternity suits are successfully prosecuted all the time.

Without actually ever having read more than excerpts from Coulter, I would assume that her point is that as the living conditions of many of those requiring assistance from government programs can be explained by a choice they made, they shouldn't receive tax-payer funded aid. Of course, as Rabbit has pointed out, this supposed causal link is far from clear. And, as Vadon pointed out, even if it exists, in punishing mothers the offspring are also punished. Studies have been done linking diminished IQ with malnourishment suggesting that these kids both have fewer opportunities to realize a 'successful life' and also might be intrinsically less capable of realizing said life. The entrenchment of an underclass isn't what the American Dream used to be about.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Why talk about single mothers?

Easy scapegoating for those whose solution to societal ills is derision.
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