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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » So who's going to watch the Watchmen? (Page 3)

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Author Topic: So who's going to watch the Watchmen?
Vadon
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I have nothing further to add to this discussion of Schlussel. I just wanted to make another page to this thread.

No, seriously, I really thought her article was ridiculous. She is obviously uninformed about the purpose and basis of "The Watchmen" and is sensationalist beyond reason.

That said, I'm not going to be in a huff over the article. [Smile]

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Jeorge
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Coming out of the theater, we all asked each other "What did you think of it?" and the typical answer was, "I'm not sure yet," or "I've got to think about it." This was the answer from both the people who had read the graphic novel and the people who hadn't (like me).

In this thread there is some discussion about a change to the ending of the story. Having never read the GN, all the spoiler comments in this thread made sense to me, so I think they must have done a pretty good job of incorporating the change into the plot.

I still haven't decided what I think of the movie, but I'm still thinking about it, which means the movie is at least memorable. [Smile]

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Jeorge
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I read the Schmuckel review, and my first thought was that people are being too hard on her. If you start from the premise that this is being marketed to children (a premise which I doubt), then the review contains some reasonable warnings.

Her true idiocy, though, comes out in the comments, where it becomes obvious that she thinks 1. if parents take children to see it, that's proof that it was marketed to that audience, and 2. her writing is essentially holy writ, and whoever reads it but doesn't agree with it has reading comprehension problems. [Roll Eyes]

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeorge:
I read the Schmuckel review, and my first thought was that people are being too hard on her. If you start from the premise that this is being marketed to children (a premise which I doubt), then the review contains some reasonable warnings.


But that's the problem, it really isn't being marketed to children, and I can't understand how anyone can think that it is. You're not going to see Watchmen ads during Saturday morning cartoons. No Doctor Manhattan toys are going to be packed with happy meals. Oh, and there's the fact that it's clearly rated R! She makes the claim that a lot of parents don't care to take notice of the rating and thus she must warn them, but chances are the parents who don't bother to check movie ratings aren't going to be reading her writing anyway. Her real premise seems to be that any film with people in costumes is being marketed to kids, but she gives no evidence to support it. The only arguments that she's given is that there are "toys" (she doesn't reply to the repeated comments that the figures are obviously not meant to be children's toys), and the fact that the trailers are shown before pg-13 movies. *sigh* I've spent too much time being annoyed by this.

By the way, can kids even get into R-rated movies in the States? Here in Canada, I got carded twice when I saw Kill Bill, which is actually more security than I go through entering a night club or casino.

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Jeorge
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Oh, I grant you all that. All I'm saying is, if we permit her that one piece of stupidity (and I can't say how stupid it is, because I haven't paid any attention to the advertising), at least her review is internally fairly consistent. Which is why I said her true stupidity is really showcased in the comments, much more so than the review.
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Noemon
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Interesting article on The Watchmen in Slate:

Watchmen Failed
The revolution it was supposed to inspireŚcomics about ordinary peopleŚnever happened.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeorge:
Oh, I grant you all that. All I'm saying is, if we permit her that one piece of stupidity (and I can't say how stupid it is, because I haven't paid any attention to the advertising), at least her review is internally fairly consistent. Which is why I said her true stupidity is really showcased in the comments, much more so than the review.

Even when she is analyzing the movie from a perspective of 'it was marketed to kids' she talks about the movie in a way which belies her cluelessness as to the point of the movie.

It's like watching Pulp Fiction and then going "Ugh, it was a movie about shooting black children."

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neo-dragon
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Wolverine vs Rorschach! [Big Grin]
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Samprimary
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hahahaha oh lord.

only watch this if you've read watchmen.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/485797

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neo-dragon
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Apparently Debbie What's-her-name thought that that was an accurate representation of Watchmen. No wonder she was so upset when she saw the movie.
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Samprimary
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Yeah, someone should hack her site to say "it was NOTHING like the saturday morning cartoon"
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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I don't get his admiration of the Comedian, but it's a good graphic novel because everyone is so complex.

I think it was related to his commitment and lifestyle. Because, I think part of Rorschach doubted what he was doing on some level -- doubting that he was doing more good than bad. Few people are truly close minded, but he still refused to concede. He respected The Comedian because he had lived the majority of his life that way.


And more of a musing: Maybe Rorshach considered "Kovaks(his real identity)" his father.

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Itsame
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I just saw it.

INCREDIBLE.

Spoilerish


The audience broke into thunderous applause at least 3 times. Twice during prison scenes (the oil being the first), once during the end of the sex scene.

The visuals were magnificent. I was worried they'd get a bit tiresome, but I was completely wrong.

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EP Kaplan
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I was disappointed with a few divergences.

SPOILERS AHOY!

To start: Giant squid.

The kidnapper scene: Sling Blade, anyone? I don't care if the philistines who never read the comic call it a "Saw rip-off", Rorschach should have burned down the house.

Giant squid.

The interview scene is among the most filmable in the graphic novel, and potentially the most striking. To **** with it over a fight scene practically yanked from 300 (these aren't super strong superheroes; that's the point) is absurd.

Squid me!

Speaking of fights, let's discuss violence. Watchmen had some realism in its pages. When the audience starts laughing at the blood, you know you've failed to get the point across.

Cephalopods, man.

It's also, in a sense, clearly for a much older than the comic. Like certain books, I could see giving Watchmen to a mature middle-high schooler. I'd have a few more qualms about taking them to see the movie.

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Shanna
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Just got out of seeing it so SPOILERS!


It was very faithful in an odd kind of way. Personally, I loved that they kept Adrian's giant mutant cat.

The soundtrack is probably the funniest part of the movie. My friend and I nearly lost it when they started playing "99 Red Balloons." My second favorite moment was courtesy of the teen girl in front of me who asked her friend "Who was Nixon?"

Nixon and John's "junk" was a constant source of hilarity for our audience. You would think after so many naked shots of John, the teenage boys would get bored giggling over it. But you'd be wrong.

I just get this sense that so much of the movie was unnecessary. Unnecessarily long sex scene, unnecessary bloody innards hanging from the ceiling, etc. I wish the guy in the editing room realized that human beings have imaginations and don't need to see everything, including the guy getting his arms sawed off.

Its been a few months since I first read Watchmen and I've stayed away in order not to spoil the movie for myself, so I'd forgotten how Rorschach killed the kidnapper. But I WAS screaming for him to burn the place down during the film. The cleaver to the skull (again, unnecessarily long shot) was just so obviously wrong for his character.

Personally, I feel wary of recommending this movie to anyone who hasn't already read the graphic novel.

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Dan_Frank
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Continue Spoiler Warning

EP Kaplan, I believe Jon's actual interview was also intercut with scenes of Nite Owl and Silk Spectre fighting random thugs. Admittedly, the fight scenes weren't as detailed or graphic, but it was still done the same way.

I didn't mind the lack of giant squid. Honestly, I feel the twist ending is twisty enough without the audience having to also accept the apparent existence of telepathic powers that can be engineered into a giant squid-thing and will apparently kill copious amounts of people. It was a hard sell in the graphic novel, and I think it would have been harder in film.

Anyway, I felt this was a phenomenally well done graphic-novel-to film. I can't think of many done better, and certainly not any of the other films based on Moore's works.

I also felt they actually improved on the ending. Not the squid ending, but the real ending: Rorschach's death. Having Nite Owl witness the murder, and have a reaction to it, was an excellent change. Instead of portraying Nite Owl (and everyone else involved) as a pathetic, spineless, loathesome worm devoid of anything resembling admirable qualities, they at least show he has some human emotion. It was good. It made the BS "everything's sunshine and rainbows" ending slightly more palateable.

Anyway, I need to get up for work in a couple of hours, so I'm done for now.

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Synesthesia
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I watched the watchmen.

It was a good movie. I must say I liked it.

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Leonide
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I really, really liked it, and I plan to see it again.

I didn't have issues with the violence and sex the way most people seem to. The graphic novel is hideously violent and gratuitous -- it just doesn't strike you as such when you're looking at still panels of artwork as when it's being realized live-action. I thought everyone was cast perfectly (especially Nite Owl and Rorschach)and I just enjoyed the heck out of the whole thing.

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Danlo the Wild
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I really, really, really enjoyed it.

I am a uber-fanboy purist. But overall I give it a big thumbs up.

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS AHEAD!

I read it when it came out and had to wait a month between each 12 issues. I read it two to 10 times a year since it came out. Zac Snyder did such a wonderful job of both making it his own while staying true to the comic.

Yes. The ending was NO WHERE NEAR AS GOOD as the GN. I am cool with that. It is a reward for reading it. It had so much good stuff in it. I am happy and satisfied.

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Abyss
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I'm a big fan of the graphic novel. This movie was a disappointment for me. I still enjoyed it, but it was a disappointment.

SPOILERS

They took every opportunity to pander to the lowest common denominator. The gore was off the charts and the sex scene was totally gratuitous. I hated the Silk Specters' interactions -- yellow jumpsuit girl gave a terrible, wooden performance, and her mom was acting as hard as she could and still came off as terrible.

That said, the Comedian was spot on, Rorschach was brilliant, and I was a fan of Ozy. The ending worked just fine, except that there was a stupid epilogue tacked on with Dan and Yellow Jumpsuit Girl.

And they took out the best scene -- where Adrian gets to be a human being rather than a villian. In the GN Adrian asks Dr. Manhattan if he did the right thing. Instead of that they have Yellow Jumpsuit Girl paraphrase his response. Oh, and then they have an epic conversation about Dan's penis working again, barely cloaked in innuendo.

As for Rorschach admiring the Comedian, one thing they played down in the movie was Rorschach's patriotism. Rorschach admired the Comedian because the Comedian was a veteran who had served his country faithfully for a long time -- despite the fact that he did it because he was a lunatic, which I think Rorschach realized he wasn't in a good position to criticize.

quote:
Maybe if I make a movie about how Eisenhower was President in 1972, we "lost" World War II, and Bin Laden was gonna bomb the World Trade Center then, I'll be cool, too. . . so long as it's "dark" and I include a bunch of rape, torture, explicit sex scenes, and extremely graphic killings, and oh, write a "graphic novel" a/k/a comic book about it, first.
I'm listening...
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Abyss
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Oh, and when the soundtrack wasn't brilliant, it was super out of place and distracting.
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Saephon
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quote:
except that there was a stupid epilogue tacked on with Dan and Yellow Jumpsuit Girl.
Like the one in the graphic novel? >.>
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Juxtapose
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Some thoughts, in no particular order:

Bubastis was strange and out of place now that she isn't necessary to demonstrate humanity's prowess at genetic manipulation. If you don't need the squid, you don't need Bubastis.

I don't think having Jon sub in for the squid as Veidt's fall-guy worked for me. When they showed Nixon's address talking about how Earth should unite against Jon I wanted to scream "You don't unite against God!"

Whoever did the casting did a pretty damn good job, overall. I was repeatedly struck by how much the characters in the movie looked like their counterparts from the novel.

quote:
Oh, and when the soundtrack wasn't brilliant, it was super out of place and distracting.
This.

quote:
I didn't have issues with the violence and sex the way most people seem to. The graphic novel is hideously violent and gratuitous -- it just doesn't strike you as such when you're looking at still panels of artwork as when it's being realized live-action.
I had an issue with it for exactly this reason. An effective adaptation should account for this.
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EP Kaplan
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Oh. And Halloween, enough said.

I will say that be ditching the squid, the were able to eliminate huge swaths of interwoven backstory. The newsstand, Black Freighter, much of the newspaper wars, large chunks of Veidt's plan, the missing writer, among other things, were able to be cut, along with a good hour or two of sitting in a theater.

I loved that Vietnam scene that referenced Vern's opera records, though.

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Instead of portraying Nite Owl (and everyone else involved) as a pathetic, spineless, loathesome worm devoid of anything resembling admirable qualities,

I still don't get where you're coming from with that. I still don't understand what you think they should have done, but okay...
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T:man
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That movie was awesome, I don't see why it got such bad reviews. The music didn't match at some parts, and the movie kinda dragged on but overall it was one of the best comic book movie ever!
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neo-dragon
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The opening credit sequence

I won't be surprised if it gets taken down soon.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
At the same time, the Soviets are about to nuke America. It's 1985 and Nixon is President. We've won in Vietnam. Oh, and Henry Kissinger has a Russian accent.
While I'm on the subject of having my brain cells die upon exposure to debbie's words, who wants to bet that they gave Kissinger an accent that is accurate, and that Debbie Schlussel is simply unaware that Kissinger has that accent?
Kissenger's accent in Watchmen was indeed spot on (the real Kissenger is German, as is his Watchmen counterpart)

I really don't know why she thought the accent was Russian, maybe she's mostly deaf along with being mostly stupid?

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T:man
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Dogbreath that was mean! [No No]
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Dogbreath
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Compared with all the other comments about her review in this thread?
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Synesthesia
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She does seem chronically misinformed.

Which is why I will ignore her completely and reread Watchmen when I can get it from the library.


I also still want a Rorschach figure.

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neo-dragon
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BTW, this is totally random, but did TVs have digital volume displays like Blake's did in 1985? Both my brother and I thought that that seemed like a rather obvious anachronism. Maybe my family was just ghetto, but I remember having to get up to adjust the volume as a young child, and I was born in '83.
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Dobbie
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That's because you didn't have a remote control, not because you didn't have a digital volume display.
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neo-dragon
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Volume was adjusted with a dial, and the remote couldn't turn the dial for you. [Razz]
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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
BTW, this is totally random, but did TVs have digital volume displays like Blake's did in 1985? Both my brother and I thought that that seemed like a rather obvious anachronism. Maybe my family was just ghetto, but I remember having to get up to adjust the volume as a young child, and I was born in '83.

Remember, Doctor Manhattan's presence caused an artificial acceleration of technology. Electric cars, genetically engineered animals...entertainment technology was probably affected as well.
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manji
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quote:
Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
Remember, Doctor Manhattan's presence caused an artificial acceleration of technology. Electric cars, genetically engineered animals...entertainment technology was probably affected as well.

In the graphic novel, maybe. I thought he was working on the solution to the energy problem in the film, along with Veidt. For example, the kid reading the Tales of the Black Freighter comic is leaning on a fire hydrant in the film, not an electric car pump, as in the graphic novel. You know this is deliberate, because you can actually see an electric car pump at the end of the film.
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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by manji:
You know this is deliberate, because you can actually see an electric car pump at the end of the film.

Was it? That would raise the question on why Hollis Mason's car mechanic sign remains unchanged.
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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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SPOILERS!

The sex scene was pornographic, but then, so were some of the violence scenes. It's funny, but I'm glad the issues were given equal time. At least the sex scene was affective, when Silk II braced her leg on the machinery, I became both hot and bothered. I felt like I was watching a very good smut film. I could have done without a few of the fight scenes, especially the Dan & Silk ones. I just didn't need it. His were unbelievable because he was supposed to be out of shape, and hers because of her shoes. Kelly from the Bad News Bears was awesome as Rorschach. He made the one liners seem thoughtful and direct instead of campy or glib. I don't think I've ever seen that done in an action film. I only really missed two scenes as a whole: The Rorschach development scene where a woman is beaten in front of an apt., and everyone watches fecklessly, and Hollis' death, which is one of the most moving parts of the book, for me.

I think Serenity is better, but Snyder succeeded in making a movie about a gang of crazies interesting. btw, after watching Rorschach deal with bullies, I can't imagine any scene in a film version of Ender's Game being too graphic.

[ March 08, 2009, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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Synesthesia
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It wasn't just a woman by the way. It was Kitty Genovese. That happened in real life. Folks just sat and watched and did nothing waiting for other people to call the police. Deeply sad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

This talks about it in a more accurate way.

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swbarnes2
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Did anyone else think of Ender when young Kovacs beats the tar out of the two kids taunting him?

Kovacs/Rorschach doesn't start all the fights he gets into, but he sure ends them.

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Chris Bridges
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I really appreciated the graphic fight scenes. Not because they were cool to watch, but because they were so painful and jarring. Look! This is what happens when your favorite superheroes beat the crap out of thugs. Permanent, crippling injuries.

The Kitty Genovese story has been lurking in my mind ever since Harlan Ellison wrote about it in several of his short stories in the 70s. Perfect example of the inhumanity of crowds.

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The Black Pearl
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I loved it. I saw it in Imax and cant wait for the director's cut.

I laughed during the scene where Dr. manhattan was in his giant form in Vietnam-- the music choice felt so obvious it was corny.

I wonder if Dan's passcode for his owl ship is Night Owl, because he actually tried typing in Ozymandius at Adran's computer.

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Synesthesia
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Yes, using Fight of the Valkyries was over the top, but I think that's the director's style. Being Over the Top. He did that in 300.

Which I should watch again and not because of all of the men not wearing shirts. Oh, no.

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by umberhulk:

I wonder if Dan's passcode for his owl ship is Night Owl, because he actually tried typing in Ozymandius at Adran's computer.

LOL.

It never ceases to amaze me how people in movies, books, and tv shows always choose passwords that can be guessed by anyone who's ever met them. Even the world's smartest man couldn't come up with a password that an old acquaintance couldn't guess in two minutes.

quote:
The sex scene was pornographic
Actually, to me it seemed somewhat tame compared to what some people were saying about it. It was no more smutty than what you see in HBO shows like the Sopranos. In other words, it's about what I would expect from a sex scene in an R-rated film.
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T:man
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by umberhulk:

I wonder if Dan's passcode for his owl ship is Night Owl, because he actually tried typing in Ozymandius at Adran's computer.

LOL.

It never ceases to amaze me how people in movies, books, and tv shows always choose passwords that can be guessed by anyone who's ever met them. Even the world's smartest man couldn't come up with a password that an old acquaintance couldn't guess in two minutes.

I think Ozymandias wanted Nite Owl to find the truth, I'm sure Ozy' has a photographic memory so I doubt he'd need to keep those things on his own computer.
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Xavier
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Ozymandias didn't seem the least bit surprised to have them show up. I think he wanted someone to explain his plan to, and so chose an easy password.
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Synesthesia
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http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2009/03/watchmen_fanati.html

I don't even believe this broad. I can't even read it because she's so... ARGS! She sounds rather like a small child that knows really big words.

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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
Ozymandias didn't seem the least bit surprised to have them show up. I think he wanted someone to explain his plan to, and so chose an easy password.

Well, he set up Rorshach so I doubt it. But I never said minded the actual password.

Also, the hacker in Live for free or Die Hard uses his last name as his alias. How stupid do you have to be if your one of the best hackers?

Also also, i'm thinking of a funny Veronica mars scene right now.

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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2009/03/watchmen_fanati.html

I don't even believe this broad. I can't even read it because she's so... ARGS! She sounds rather like a small child that knows really big words.

...and your response is to give her free exposure by posting a link to her on a high traffic message board?

But that trick never works!

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Nighthawk
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quote:
The sex scene was pornographic
It's amusing that 90% of the time Dr. Manhattan is on screen he's dangling about... but dear lord that sex scene was way too much for me to handle!

quote:
I wonder if Dan's passcode for his owl ship is Night Owl, because he actually tried typing in Ozymandius at Adran's computer.
The "smartest man in the world" uses a password that's written on a book binding no more than two feet from the computer?!? I audibly reacted to that one, much to the chagrin of everyone around me.

And I felt so old... I giggled when I saw Warhol, Bowie, Breshnev with Castro, Kissinger... I don't think anyone within twenty feet of me at the theater knew who those people were (well, it is Miami, so half the theater did point and say "Hey, Castro!").

And I don't remember Nixon having as phallic looking of a nose as he did in the movie.

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