posted
Surely there were good people before Christ
edit: The point being that I don't think Christ's goodness is a particularly strong reason for believing that Christianity is true.
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posted
I... don't even know what to say to that. I want to write a lengthy explanation as to why that sounds unbelievably arrogant (let alone completely ignorant of what Socrates was about), but others have already tried and you completely missed the point.
A few quick notes on Socrates:
1. Pretty much inspired the basis of Western philosophy. 2. Went around suggesting people re-evaluate their lives, focusing on spiritual development and community rather than material gain. 3. Was executed by the powers that be. Despite the chance to flee, he willingly faced his execution.
Sound familiar? All the things that I DO find valuable in Jesus (and there's plenty of things Jesus said/did that I don't care much for) were present in Socrates 500 years earlier. And all the things that might have made Socrates seeing annoying or unproductive were certainly present in Jesus as well. (Although in both cases I do not find it annoying or unproductive.)
Edit: (Oddly enough, if it weren't for this thread I'd never have realized philosophy essentially has its own Christ Figure)
[ May 25, 2009, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: My observation is that people who act in a Christ-like way lead better lives
I think one could just as eaily say "Those who act in a Gandhi-like manner lead better lives".
But then all of a sudden this line of thinking becomes not such a great argument in favor of Jesus's divine heritage and redeeming death, am I right?
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1. Pretty much inspired the basis of Western philosophy. 2. Went around suggesting people re-evaluate their lives, focusing on spiritual development and community rather than material gain. 3. Was executed by the powers that be. Despite the chance to flee, he willingly faced his execution.
Sound familiar?
I was a philosophy major in college; I know a lot about Socrates which is why I picked him as an example. I really don't think anyone who actually acted like the way he is portrayed in Plato's dialogues would live a very good life. As much as I think re-evaluating your life is a good idea, I don't think doing it constantly is a good thing, I suspect that constantly arguing with others is frequently not going to be productive (it led Socrates to get executed), and I suspect there are much more important things in life than what Socrates (or perhaps actually Plato) argued was most important. That doesn't mean he was not a great person for what he did. In fact that's my point: that you can be a good person without it being wise for everyone to act just like you did.
quote:I think one could just as eaily say "Those who act in a Gandhi-like manner lead better lives".
But then all of a sudden this line of thinking becomes not such a great argument in favor of Jesus's divine heritage and redeeming death, am I right?
Well, no - that doesn't change the fact that the wisdom of Christ's philosophy leads me to think Christianity as a religion is more likely to be true. I never said the success of Christ's philosophy is enough of a reason by itself to conclude God exists. If Gandhi also resurrected from the dead in addition to living life the way he did, I might think differently about what his life meant too.
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quote:I really don't think anyone who actually acted like the way he is portrayed in Plato's dialogues would live a very good life.
If you read the Bible very closely and sans rose-coloured glasses, you'll discover that Jesus isn't entirely sunshine and roses, either-- even in a clearly adapted version of his life.
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posted
Edit: I don't actually know which passages Teshi and Tres were intending to reference here. What exact kinds of "non-rosy" things are we talking about?
Second Edit: On a slightly different note, I also don't think people should arbitrarily model their lives after any particular person. People are different. What worked for one person will not work for everyone. I don't think, even from a Christian standpoint, it makes sense to model yourself after Jesus, because Jesus (much like Socrates) was a teacher. Teachers are valuable to the world, but not when everyone becomes one.
[ May 25, 2009, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
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posted
I did have a big post about points where I feel inclined to tell Jesus off, but I decided it was too inflammatory and too can-of-wormsish.
Raymond, I agree. We should draw insights from various people and the world in general, not try to copy one person. Because that one person, even if it's Gandhi or Jesus is inevitably going to be as flawed as anyone.
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