quote:Originally posted by Christine: Frankly, I think the pill out to be available over the counter.
Could you, technically and medically, do that? I mean, my understanding is that dosage has to be adjusted to each individual woman. It isn't like Advil.
Myself, I could never take the pill -- I tried it and have very bad side effects. So back when I had to practice birth control, I had to look at other options. And I don't know how someone could properly do that without a general health overview by a doctor. It is so individual.
I have never heard of dosage adjustment. If you have seen packages of pills, there is no way to do dosage adjustments. Some people do have better responses to one type or another (for example, I can not handle tri versions), but I would think that that is pretty similar to how some people respond to tylenol better then ibuprofen.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Frankly, I think the pill out to be available over the counter.
Could you, technically and medically, do that? I mean, my understanding is that dosage has to be adjusted to each individual woman. It isn't like Advil.
Myself, I could never take the pill -- I tried it and have very bad side effects. So back when I had to practice birth control, I had to look at other options. And I don't know how someone could properly do that without a general health overview by a doctor. It is so individual.
Not in my experience. There is very, very little individualism in this. Yes, there is a range of hormone levels in the packs but it's all hit and miss. Was ortho-tricyclen (sp?) giving you problems? Well, try this lower dose pill. It's not like they run blood work to determine which pill is right for you. It's not like they check up on you to see how they are working. it's all patient report. And it's not like you can individualize the dosage level in the pill packs. (As a side note, I too had problems on the pill and decided not to use them, but my OB's continued to push them on me for years.)
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quote:Rakeesh, is the law forcing you to stay sick?
Now we're getting into specifics. Anyway, lemme answer your question with a question: did the law force you to get sick?
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: If you have seen packages of pills, there is no way to do dosage adjustments. Some people do have better responses to one type or another (for example, I can not handle tri versions), but I would think that that is pretty similar to how some people respond to tylenol better then ibuprofen.
True. But very few people react to acetaminophen or ibuprofen with blood clots that could kill them. A significant number of women do react that way to birth control pills -- especially if they have not been screened by a doctor for various risk factors.
I'm in favor of making it easier to get birth control, but simple OTC is not the way to go.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: What if it turns out the other way? "Whether or not the mother (or the father, through strong persuasion) kills the baby is on their conscience and is between them and their god, should they believe in one." That could well be the reality of the situation. I don't know, but you certainly don't either. If it is, though, it's definitely not a matter just to leave up to the mother's conscience.
I'm not sure what you mean by this? What if it turns out what? That there is a certain answer to this question? The question itself isn't even certain.
What, exactly, is this worst case scenario that would cause us to err on the side that would prevent it?
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: If you have seen packages of pills, there is no way to do dosage adjustments. Some people do have better responses to one type or another (for example, I can not handle tri versions), but I would think that that is pretty similar to how some people respond to tylenol better then ibuprofen.
True. But very few people react to acetaminophen or ibuprofen with blood clots that could kill them. A significant number of women do react that way to birth control pills -- especially if they have not been screened by a doctor for various risk factors.
I'm in favor of making it easier to get birth control, but simple OTC is not the way to go.
Possibly having them available behind the counter, requiring a consultation with the pharmacist to go over the risk factors? I believe this is what they do with the morning after pill.
I don't know, aside from asking me if I smoked, the only reason I knew the risk factors of the pill is that I read the entire pamphlet word for word -- which given the tiny print and my visual impairment was no simple task. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Thank you for that pithy answer, Paul. While I'm trying out those diagrams, why don't you try making a specific statement that more accurately reflects your meaning?
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Possibly having them available behind the counter, requiring a consultation with the pharmacist to go over the risk factors? I believe this is what they do with the morning after pill.
While that would be better than OTC, I still don't like that. With emergency contraception, there is a critical time element. That's not true for the pill, which is also taken for far longer (and therefore with far higher risk of side effects).
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I don't know, aside from asking me if I smoked, the only reason I knew the risk factors of the pill is that I read the entire pamphlet word for word -- which given the tiny print and my visual impairment was no simple task.
Was this your regular physician, who had your full medical history in front of them? Had they recently taken your blood pressure and done the other fairly standard checks?
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Funny, I think Paul has been completely clear this time around.
If you get sick, you can either let the illness ride it's course out, or you can usually take something to fix it/ hasten it's course, making you no longer sick.
Sounds like what we have now.
For the record...OTC is a HORRIBLE idea for BC pills. There are SIGNIFICANT risks, and I am in favor of keeping it controlled, as are most MD's and other health workers.
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Right now I don't think you sincerely want to understand my position, so I don't feel like doing more work for you, when all the work you need is on this thread.
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Paul's original basis for likening unwanted pregnancy to slavery was that it is 'involuntary'. I questioned that. Instead of just revising his original statement to add some qualifiers, you replied with sarcasm about Venn Diagrams.
I never actually thought you believed all involuntary conditions = slavery, Paul. I did, however, think that in this conversation, involuntary was the only gauge you were using to determine whether or not something is slavery.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: I don't know, aside from asking me if I smoked, the only reason I knew the risk factors of the pill is that I read the entire pamphlet word for word -- which given the tiny print and my visual impairment was no simple task.
Was this your regular physician, who had your full medical history in front of them? Had they recently taken your blood pressure and done the other fairly standard checks?
Actually, I've been prescribed the pill by more than one doctor -- at least 3 that I can remember. Two were OB's and one was the quack at the student health services at college. I did fill out a standard health questionnaire with each one, but I just don't think any of them did anything special except frown disapprovingly at me for asking for birth control pills when I wasn't married. One of them -- an even bigger quack than the doof at student health services -- told me that the reason I was having some pain with intercourse was that I was feeling guilty about pre-marital sex and I really ought to tell my mom about it. (Eight years and at least 6 OB's later, I found one who was willing to listen and who fixed the problem with a single in-office treatment.) So basically, I don't think doctors are particularly useful, especially OB's, who seem to think they need to judge me for my choices.
No, I'm not bitter. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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That's the sort of thing that would make me so angry, no kidding, that I'd probably secretly attempt to record my next visit with that doctor and try and get'm in some serious sh@#.
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christine, if it makes you feel any better, I had some pain during intercourse and talked to atleast 3 (maybe 4 drs about it). I was married when I started having sex and they still blew me off. They said it was all psychological, that many religious women have trouble getting over the sex is bad indoctrination and I should learn to relax. I felt so vindicated when I was giving birth and my dr said, you had pain during intercourse and probably also a difficult time getting tampons in didn't you? He then fixed the problem. I had never discussed my problems with him because I had been told so many times I was just crazy.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: I don't know, aside from asking me if I smoked, the only reason I knew the risk factors of the pill is that I read the entire pamphlet word for word -- which given the tiny print and my visual impairment was no simple task.
Was this your regular physician, who had your full medical history in front of them? Had they recently taken your blood pressure and done the other fairly standard checks?
Actually, I've been prescribed the pill by more than one doctor -- at least 3 that I can remember. Two were OB's and one was the quack at the student health services at college. I did fill out a standard health questionnaire with each one, but I just don't think any of them did anything special except frown disapprovingly at me for asking for birth control pills when I wasn't married. One of them -- an even bigger quack than the doof at student health services -- told me that the reason I was having some pain with intercourse was that I was feeling guilty about pre-marital sex and I really ought to tell my mom about it. (Eight years and at least 6 OB's later, I found one who was willing to listen and who fixed the problem with a single in-office treatment.) So basically, I don't think doctors are particularly useful, especially OB's, who seem to think they need to judge me for my choices.
No, I'm not bitter.
This has been similar to my experience getting the Pill. In almost all cases, I went to a doctor who had never seen me before, spent no more than the time of the examination talking to me, gave me a few sample packages and sent me on my way. They rarely mentioned that there are different formulations of the Pill if one gives you problems, or that there can be serious side effects.
I've also had the experience where the doctor makes it clear that he disapproves of premarital sex or blames a medical problem on "you must be feeling guilty". It can make you very bitter and distrusting. (To be fair, I've also had a very few fantastic OB/GYNs--even and especially at the various student health centers I've gone to).
I don't know what the solution is. I think a pharmacist would be just as likely as some of the doctors I've had to tell patients about the potential side effects and proper use of the Pill. In fact, a pharmacist was the first one to tell me about the proper use of the Pill, you know taking it at the same time every day and stuff like that.
But I don't like the idea of giving the Pill over the counter only because I think the examination at the doctor's office is important too. And because a couple of the doctors I've had actually have taken the time with me to answer questions, even questions I didn't know I had.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: christine, if it makes you feel any better, I had some pain during intercourse and talked to atleast 3 (maybe 4 drs about it). I was married when I started having sex and they still blew me off. They said it was all psychological, that many religious women have trouble getting over the sex is bad indoctrination and I should learn to relax. I felt so vindicated when I was giving birth and my dr said, you had pain during intercourse and probably also a difficult time getting tampons in didn't you? He then fixed the problem. I had never discussed my problems with him because I had been told so many times I was just crazy.
I don't think it makes me feel better...no. I was pretty certain the problem was widespread and I'm sorry to hear you had similar problems.
To be fair to the many OB's I saw, I only actually mentioned that problem to 4 of them. The first 2 had me so convinced that it was all in my mind that I didn't mention it again until I was married and the problem was affecting my marriage. Then I talked to 2 new OB's. They weren't judgmental but then again, I was married (pregnant with my first baby when I talked to the first...she wouldn't believe that the problem wasn't related to pregnancy). When I finally found the one who fixed the problem she just couldn't believe I'd been living with it for so long.
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I am suddenly remembering WHY even after my OB moved 3x as far away I kept going to her . . .
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I had problems with high blood pressure for several years, to the point where I was on medication for it. It wasn't until *after* I lost about 60 pounds & got in terrific shape, & my blood pressure still didn't get any better, that someone said, "Hey, you know, sometimes estrogen causes that problem." I switched to the mini-pill and bing! Problem resolved.
No one even considered that the combination pill might be causing my high blood pressure--they just figured it was because I was heavy. (And not even that heavy, really!)
I don't think this argues for making the pill more readily available--more that doctors should remember that it's *not* Tylenol.
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I've also had the experience where the doctor makes it clear that he disapproves of premarital sex or blames a medical problem on "you must be feeling guilty". It can make you very bitter and distrusting.
This is almost funny to me -- because I've had the opposite experience -- where when I tell them I'm abstinent, they will not believe me; and keep trying to recommend I get on birth control "just in case". Even if I assure them I have not had sex in XX years...
Don't know if that has to do with age difference, or what.
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When I started working for the Department of Health, I asked the doctor during a pap/physical about getting a HepB shot, since I have occupational exposure to body fluids from time to time. She insisted on giving me an STD screen before she'd order the shot. She couldn't believe I might be concerned about non-sexual exposure risks. Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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I've also had the experience where the doctor makes it clear that he disapproves of premarital sex or blames a medical problem on "you must be feeling guilty". It can make you very bitter and distrusting.
This is almost funny to me -- because I've had the opposite experience -- where when I tell them I'm abstinent, they will not believe me; and keep trying to recommend I get on birth control "just in case". Even if I assure them I have not had sex in XX years...
Don't know if that has to do with age difference, or what.
Actually, I've managed to have both experiences...doctors dubious of my virginity when I was one and scathing of my sexuality when I became active. Can't win, can you? Hey, here's a novel thought: Maybe it's a personal decision and you, my doctor, should just treat who I am instead of who you think I should be. Sigh...
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quote:I've also had the experience where the doctor makes it clear that he disapproves of premarital sex or blames a medical problem on "you must be feeling guilty". It can make you very bitter and distrusting.
What the heck is that supposed to mean. "you must be feeling guilty?" how does he blame a medical problem on guilt? Does he assume you're hallucinating problems now because of the guilt of your SHAMEFUL FORNICATION
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quote:I've also had the experience where the doctor makes it clear that he disapproves of premarital sex or blames a medical problem on "you must be feeling guilty". It can make you very bitter and distrusting.
What the heck is that supposed to mean. "you must be feeling guilty?" how does he blame a medical problem on guilt? Does he assume you're hallucinating problems now because of the guilt of your SHAMEFUL FORNICATION
To be fair to the doctor, there are a world of sexual problems that do arise because of the unreasonable amount of guilt some place on sex, both pre and post-marital. I've done some reading on the subject and it seems that in the US, most women have some kind of sexual dysfunction at some point in their lives.
This does not excuse a doctor for being dismissive of problems because it is (or should be in medical communities) well known that no psychological problem can be diagnosed before ruling out all possible physical problems.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I am suddenly remembering WHY even after my OB moved 3x as far away I kept going to her . . .
My husband asked if I'd be willing to move back to Dallas, and at what pay rate. I said, "You'd have to be making enough for me to fly back to see my OB here every pregnancy."
Yeah. I've had enough bad ones, I get a good one and I don't ever want to change!
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My wife seems pretty attached to her OB but I can't figure out why. He encourages inductions convenient to his schedule and has nurses encourage women not to push because the doctor is having dinner...my wife claims to believe in natural child birth but keeps getting talked out of pretty much every principle of the Bradley method by her OB (three times now). Oh well, maybe it's because he's handsome and has small hands.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Paul's original basis for likening unwanted pregnancy to slavery was that it is 'involuntary'. I questioned that. Instead of just revising his original statement to add some qualifiers, you replied with sarcasm about Venn Diagrams.
I never actually thought you believed all involuntary conditions = slavery, Paul. I did, however, think that in this conversation, involuntary was the only gauge you were using to determine whether or not something is slavery.
I didn't see it as him claiming it WAS slavery, but he was drawing a parallel to it. IMO, anyways.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I got this image of a carnie ob just now
Actually, the best OB I had wouldn't have been out of place in a carnie. He had a genetic/metabolic disorder that caused him to be very tall - he was about 6ft 10 inches, but very very slender. And he had proportionately long, but slender arms, hands and fingers. The exams I received from him were gentler and seemed less invasive than from any other doctor.
Unfortunately, the disorder that caused his abnormal height also weakened his heart and he died suddenly in his late 30s while I was pregnant with my last child. His funeral was attended by hundreds of weeping pregnant women. Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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I honestly haven't noticed the size of my OB's hands making a difference. I had a pretty bad one who was tiny (under 5 foot with small hands). The one I have now is a rather tall man with decent size hands.
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I think so. It's been a long time though. My "baby" just graduated high school.
Now I'm trying to remember that MD's name. I can picture his face and remember his first name was the same as my son's, but can't remember his last name. How sad...
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I debated between creating a new thread or bumping this one. Ultimately, I feel that this news wraps up a little bit of this thread, so this is where I decided to post it. I'm not trying to resurrect a year-old argument...I'm just contributing an update on some news.
quote:(CNN) -- The man convicted of killing Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller last year was sentenced Thursday to life in prison without parole eligibility for 50 years.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Darth_Mauve: There is something else to consider here. Because while katharina seems to think that killing a human being at any time is wrong, most people do not believe this. Most people will kill in their own defense, or in the defense of someone else, particularly their family. I don't believe that most pro-lifers, even, think that killing is wrong in all cases, but rather that they think termination of a helpless, innocent life is wrong. So it may not be hypocrisy at all to kill in the defense of helpless babies. (I don't agree with this; I'm simply trying to climb into his point of view.)
I believe that killing people is wrong, yet I killed an attacker in self defense while in the Army. After trying to run away, even, but still.
You'd be surprised what you are capable of. I know I was.
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I think we can all agree that aborting a thread rather than letting it simply die of natural causes bothers everybody.
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I was surprised at the joke, but not offended. Maybe just because it was BlackBlade saying it? I dunno.
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