posted
But again, as Scott pointed out, they aren't opposing equal rights. They don't consider the right to a same sex marriage to be a right at all, for anyone.
What’s the civil way to express that viewpoint?
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quote:If you (general you) want more civility in the words of advocates for gay rights, you (general you) might stop insisting on uncivil actions against gay people.
I do not agree that holding an opinion is equal to taking an action.
I do not agree that withholding cookies from a toddler who is having a tantrum is unkind.
This has nothing to do with homosexuals.
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My understanding of kmbboots's argument is not that she's saying that she or anyone on the pro-SSM side of the argument should be uncivil - it's that anti-SSM proponents should not complain about what they consider uncivil actions since, from the POV of pro-SSM people, the anti-SSM side is, in and of itself, uncivil.
So. "I'm not going to do A because I recognize it's bad. But you shouldn't complain too much about people doing A, since you're doing A yourself."
I agree with this position.
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Scott, if you aren't equating homosexuals wanting to marry with toddlers wanting cookies, what is the relevance of that statement? Why would you post it in this discussion?
True. If one never takes action on their opinion they are not engaging in unkind acts.
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quote:if you aren't equating homosexuals wanting to marry with toddlers wanting cookies, what is the relevance of that statement? Why would you post it in this discussion?
Because you are hinting that in some cases, it's excusable to be uncivil.
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I think the abortion analogy is apt. It's difficult to maintain civility, but people should try. Otherwise, the sides will simply become increasingly polarized.
In other words, be uncivil all you like, but I think it's more likely to hurt your cause than help it.
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quote:if you aren't equating homosexuals wanting to marry with toddlers wanting cookies, what is the relevance of that statement? Why would you post it in this discussion?
Because you are hinting that in some cases, it's excusable to be uncivil.
No. I'm not. If I thought that, I would say it rather than hint at it.
Again. I am not suggesting that supporters of gay rights should be less civil; I am saying that people who oppose gay rights are more uncivil, no matter how polite they are about it, than they think they are.
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quote:Originally posted by Jhai: My understanding of kmbboots's argument is not that she's saying that she or anyone on the pro-SSM side of the argument should be uncivil - it's that anti-SSM proponents should not complain about what they consider uncivil actions since, from the POV of pro-SSM people, the anti-SSM side is, in and of itself, uncivil.
So. "I'm not going to do A because I recognize it's bad. But you shouldn't complain too much about people doing A, since you're doing A yourself."
I agree with this position.
Jhai, I believe that both you and kate are begging the question. The SSM debate is fundamentally not about whether gay people should be denied civil rights it is about whether people should have the right to marry a person of their choosing regardless of gender. The primary question IS whether this should be a civil right or not. Your argument basically boils down to you don't think you need to be civil if you are right.
The funny thing is, that your stance is the radical one. To the best of my knowledge, prior to the last two decades, civilization that have sanctioned same sex marriage are at best highly exceptional even among civilizations like ancient Greece where same sex relationships were not only accepted but praised. I don't think that constitutes a reason why our society should not sanction SSM, but certainly it ought to make it clear that this isn't a long recognized legal right.
You are the ones proposing that we grant a new right in our society. It is your burden to pursuade opponents that this right is just and just shouting 'it is a right' repeatedly is begging the question.
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quote:Originally posted by Jhai: My understanding of kmbboots's argument is not that she's saying that she or anyone on the pro-SSM side of the argument should be uncivil - it's that anti-SSM proponents should not complain about what they consider uncivil actions since, from the POV of pro-SSM people, the anti-SSM side is, in and of itself, uncivil.
So. "I'm not going to do A because I recognize it's bad. But you shouldn't complain too much about people doing A, since you're doing A yourself."
I agree with this position.
Jhai, I believe that both you and kate are begging the question. The SSM debate is fundamentally not about whether gay people should be denied civil rights it is about whether people should have the right to marry a person of their choosing regardless of gender. The primary question IS whether this should be a civil right or not. Your argument basically boils down to you don't think you need to be civil if you are right.
Where? Where! have I written that anyone should stop being civil? MY argument is the opposite of that. I am saying that even if we are all wrong and opponents of SSM are right - because God says so or civilization will fall if we allow gay marriage or whatever - they are still being unkind and unjust and not nice.
Perhaps religious dictates and saving families as you (general you) think they should be trumps being kind and just and nice. I get that. Just don't pretend that you (general you) are being kind and just and nice.
quote:
The funny thing is, that your stance is the radical one. To the best of my knowledge, prior to the last two decades, civilization that have sanctioned same sex marriage are at best highly exceptional even among civilizations like ancient Greece where same sex relationships were not only accepted but praised. I don't think that constitutes a reason why our society should not sanction SSM, but certainly it ought to make it clear that this isn't a long recognized legal right.
You are the ones proposing that we grant a new right in our society. It is your burden to pursuade opponents that this right is just and just shouting 'it is a right' repeatedly is begging the question.
Marriage isn't a new right. Just like voting wasn't a new right when we allowed women to vote. Now, most places, it is a legal protection that some people have access to and others do not. "This is how it has always been" is not a good enough argument nor is it a true argument. Marriage has been many things - and still is - before it became what it is here and now.
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"Your argument basically boils down to you don't think you need to be civil if you are right. "
No, kate's argument boils down to "If you treat people meanly, don't be surprised if they treat you meanly in response. This does not mean that anyone should be mean to other people."
Look, I get that some people don't think this is about equal rights (they are wrong, but whatever), but to believe that you are not being mean to gay people while arguing against letting gays have access to civil marriage is frankly inexcusable for any halfway-intelligent person.
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Rabbit, did you actually read what I wrote? My argument (i.e. my interpretation of Kate's argument) boils down to exactly what I wrote, no more, no less: "I'm not going to do A because I recognize it's bad. But you shouldn't complain too much about people doing A, since you're doing A yourself." How is that equivalent to "you don't think you need to be civil if you are right"? If you would like, I can put these two statements into propositional logic and prove that they are not the same, nor even close to it.
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quote:Where? Where! have I written that anyone should stop being civil? MY argument is the opposite of that. I am saying that even if we are all wrong and opponents of SSM are right - because God says so or civilization will fall if we allow gay marriage or whatever - they are still being unkind and unjust and not nice
How? That is the argument. Is it just or is it unjust? And kind and nice are pretty strongly linked with what is just. I suppose people might consider it kind and nice if I give people more than they justly deserve but is it unkind and not nice if I don't. Couldn't one fairly consider it not nice if people demand to receive more than they justly deserve?
If it is just to prohibit same sex marriage, is it then unkind and not nice to oppose legalization? Seriously, explain your argument. You are still begging the real question. Does justice demand that people should be allowed to legally marry any person of their choosing regardless of gender.
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The Rabbit, can you explain to me how denying SSM is just?
I can give you plenty of reasons that it isn't.
Added: Really. In decades of arguing for gay rights, I have heard lots of arguments about religion and protecting families and saving children from existing in homes without both genders. I have never heard someone argue that it is fair.
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quote:Originally posted by twinky: I think the abortion analogy is apt. It's difficult to maintain civility, but people should try. Otherwise, the sides will simply become increasingly polarized.
In other words, be uncivil all you like, but I think it's more likely to hurt your cause than help it.
Is this true though? In both the abortion and gay marriage cases, while it is true that both sides are polarized I have to wonder if it is actually true that being civil would actually help.
Looking at the social trends and the projections of places like 538, it seems that same-sex marriage is all but inevitable although it may take a long time. The abortion fight is partly won, although vigilance is very required. And all this is with the current set of very uncivil tactics. In other words, it seems like the uncivil tactics are actually working and of benefit!
So is it actually true that if everyone sat down and starting being more polite that the cause of same-sex marriage and pro-choice would actually be advanced? Or rather, is it the case that less noise and uncivility might actually mean less attention to the two causes and more antipathy toward changing the status quo?
It is an interesting question and I don't think the answer is as obvious as assumed by some of the preceding posts.
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kmboots, I'm not arguing that denying same sex marriage is just so no I'm not going to explain it to you.
You are proposing that something be made a legal right that is not currently a legal right -- you therefore have the burden of pursuading people that this change is just. This is the big underlying question in the debate. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist and everyone agrees. They clearly don't.
The SSM debate isn't a debate between people who all agree that people have an inherent right to marry who ever the choose without restriction. It isn't a debate between people who think its OK to deny this right and people who don't. Its a debate about whether or not this should be a right.
This the question. If the answer were obvious, there wouldn't be a debate. This is what I keep saying about trying to understand where the other side is coming from.
Opponents of SSM (at least the ones I know) are not people who think its gays should be treated unkindly and unjustly. They aren't people who think its OK to discriminate against people because they are gay. They are people who think that the current system in which people are allowed to marry only people of the opposite sex is just. If you want that to change, you have to address the question not just keeping repeating that you are right and they are wrong.
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"You are proposing that something be made a legal right that is not currently a legal right -- you therefore have the burden of pursuading people that this change is just. "
Alternatively, people holding something for themselves that they won't let others have access to have the burden of showing that the status quo is just.
Currently existing is not a good argument for alternative view points to have the burden of proof. Its a COMMON argument, but its not good.
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"Opponents of SSM (at least the ones I know) are not people who think its gays should be treated unkindly and unjustly. They aren't people who think its OK to discriminate against people because they are gay. "
Opponents of SSM are, nevertheless, people who DO treat gays unkindly and unjustly.
Also, the proposition "It is not ok to discriminate against people who are gay," and "It is just to deny same sex marriage while maintaining the status quo of legal marriage," are contradictory.
To discriminate means to make a distinction in favor of one group over another. It is illogical to claim that the status quo of marriage is not discriminatory... people who maintain it is not aren't paying attention to what civil marriage in the United States is.
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: "You are proposing that something be made a legal right that is not currently a legal right -- you therefore have the burden of pursuading people that this change is just. "
Alternatively, people holding something for themselves that they won't let others have access to have the burden of showing that the status quo is just.
Currently existing is not a good argument for alternative view points to have the burden of proof. Its a COMMON argument, but its not good.
Perhaps valid in a philosophy class but impractical when we are discussing the law. A system which required those who opposed changes to the law to prove the status quo was fair would virtually unworkable.
I have in my a possession a bar of excellent chocolate. It is legally mine and I intend to eat it. Current law says that only people who pay the fair market price or recieve it as a gift have the right to good chocolate. If you believe that this system is unjust and that all people deserve to eat good chocolate whether or not they can pay the fair market price or have generous friends, then you have the responsibility of persuading people that the law should be changed. Telling me that I'm unkind, and unjust and not nice because I'm going to eat and enjoy my chocolate while I oppose changes to the law that would allow everyone to eat and enjoy this chocolate, is begging the question.
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quote:Opponents of SSM are, nevertheless, people who DO treat gays unkindly and unjustly.
You are still begging the question. I don't care how many times you rephrase it. The debate exists because opponents of SSM disagree with that this is a fact. They don't believe it is unjust deny people the right to marry some on of the same gender.
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quote:Opponents of SSM are, nevertheless, people who DO treat gays unkindly and unjustly.
You are still begging the question. I don't care how many times you rephrase it. The debate exists because opponents of SSM disagree with that this is a fact. They don't believe it is unjust deny people the right to marry some on of the same gender.
The Rabbit, I could with just as much sense, argue that calling someone a stupid bigot is kind and civil because I believe that.
Not, mind you, that I am doing that here and now.
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"You are still begging the question. I don't care how many times you rephrase it. The debate exists because opponents of SSM disagree with that this is a fact."
Actually, I'm not sure that's the argument they are making. Most "good" arguments I've seen against equitable marriage (not that I've seen any actual good argument) don't deny that they are being unkind and unjust to gays, rather, those arguments assert, usually, necessity or similar. Necessity, beneficial for society, etc. are not the same as "kind and just."
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As for the chocolate argument. Capitalism is not supposed to be fair; our legal system is supposed to be.
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You are only being kind towards people if the people you are acting towards agree that you are being kind. That's implicit in the definition of kind. Since you cannot find more than a small handful of gays who think the anti-equitable marriage stance is kind, the only way for an anti to believe s/he is being kind is by being delusional or deliberately blind.
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Kate, You seem to believe that straight people have the right to marry any person of their choosing. Neither gay people nor straight people have the legal right to marry some one who is already married to someone else, or someone under a set age, or someone who is a close relative or someone who does not consent or someone of the same gender.
It is entirely possible to see these laws as applying equally to everyone and not specifically to straight or gay people. Historically, the legal contract of marriage has been about property rights and responsibilities not about love or sexual attraction. Even today I can think of many reasons people might want to marry someone to whom they were not particularly sexually attracted, although these are the exceptions not the rule. For example, two men who wanted to get married to save on medical insurance wouldn't be allowed to but a man and a woman would be allowed to marry even if this was their only reason. Two divorced women who chose to live together to share child care and financial responsibilities, would not be allowed to marry but if they were a man and a women they could.
Personally, I see no reason why the fact that two people whose relationship is sexual should receive legal rights that are different from two people whose relationship is non-sexual.
In my opinion, the legal status of marriage has already been made archaic by modern attitudes toward love, sex, marriage, property, inheritance and women in general. It is no longer adequate for dealing with the complexities of family relations and property ownership in our modern society and needs to be overhauled. But I think the claims that the law discriminates against gay people are inaccurate.
It might be accurate to say the laws give an unfair advantage to people with more traditional property and familial arrangements. Even families like mine with two career professionals are at a disadvantage under currently law.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: As for the chocolate argument. Capitalism is not supposed to be fair; our legal system is supposed to be.
The chocolate analogy is awful. Rabbit can't be so morally blind as to not know that.
It costs to make chocolate. That's why it's fair to pay for it. Marriage "costs" the state some too, but gay people are already paying the same taxes, and getting none of the benefits.
So a better chocolate analogy (as if the harm caused by not having a few onces of chocolate is comaprable to the harm of not having a legal marraige) is that gay people are like people with severe peanut allergies who are forced to buy chocolate, but only in the form of chocolate peanut butter cups. And that's fine for most people, who really like chocolate peanut butter cups, but it's not going to work for people with allergies. Their choices are to not eat the chocolate they want and paid for, or to eat it with peanut butter, and be miserable.
It's obvious to anyone with a heart that that's not a just situation.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Kate, You seem to believe that straight people have the right to marry any person of their choosing. Neither gay people nor straight people have the legal right to marry some one who is already married to someone else, or someone under a set age, or someone who is a close relative or someone who does not consent or someone of the same gender.
What have written that makes you think that is what I believe? Is is because I keep insisting that I am married to Viggo Mortenson? How do you think that "same gender" fits with under age or already legally committed to someone else.
As for the roomates who want to save on insurance. If they are opposite gender roomates, they can get married if they choose. They may also be committing insurance fraud, but they can get married.
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" But I think the claims that the law discriminates against gay people are inaccurate. "
You think wrongly. Either you do not know the law, or you do not know what discriminate means, or you are lying. I choose to believe you simply are uninformed.
The word discriminate means to give preference to one position or group over another.
Marriage in the united states as a legal institution allows people to marry a consenting person of their choosing, unless they choose a person of the same sex, or a close family member. This is giving preference to people who choose to form a pair-bond with someone of the opposite sex. The laws in most places where same sex couples may not marry outlining what marriage is in the united states have been written explicitly in response to people desiring to marry someone of the same sex. DOMA was passed in response to people desiring to marry a consenting person of the same sex, not of close familial relations.
This is a textbook example of discrimination.
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posted
So the law discriminates on a group that is defined solely by their desires?
So do laws that require people to get a drivers license to use the public road ways discriminate against the group of people who don't want to get drivers licenses?
Do tax laws discriminate against the group of people who don't want to pay taxes?
Do laws against steeling descriminate against the group of people who want to take stuff that doesn't belong to them?
Do laws against murder discriminate against people who want to kill somebody?
I have a hard time buying off that a law is discriminatory because it disadvantages people who desire something other than the law.
Laws against steeling and killing were made only in response to people who wanted to steel and kill. By your definition these are all textbook examples of discrimination.
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quote:As for the roomates who want to save on insurance. If they are opposite gender roomates, they can get married if they choose. They may also be committing insurance fraud, but they can get married.
Do laws consider a marriage fraudulent if the two people aren't having sex? First time I've heard it. I'm fairly confident that as long as the marriage is legal, you aren't committing insurance fraud.
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The Rabbit, so would a law that allowed white people to sit in front of the bus or go stay at certain hotels wouldn't be discriminatory because it only disadvantaged people who desired something other than the law?
I'm really not sure where you are going with that.
Again, you are not reading what I wrote. No. Laws do not consider a marriage fraudulent if two people aren't having sex. Like I wrote, "they can get married".
I don't know what insurance companies require, hence "may" be committing insurance fraud.
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quote:What have written that makes you think that is what I believe? Is is because I keep insisting that I am married to Viggo Mortenson? How do you think that "same gender" fits with under age or already legally committed to someone else
No. Marriage to people who are teenagers, first cousins and even polygamy (marriage to someone who is already married) have been legal for much of human history. In fact, in many cultures one has been able to legal marry a woman without her consent. I'm still searching for examples of civilizations where same sex marriage has been legal.
Look I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm obviously not making my point clear. If you want to persuade people that SSM is just, then you have to provide arguments to support that because it isn't obvious. This is a very new idea and reflect changes in our societies attitudes about what marriage is and what marriage should be. I'm not saying that those changes are wrong, in fact I think many of them are good. I'm saying that they need to be clearly articulated and saying "arguments like "how does same gender fit with X, Y and Z" don't cut the mustard.
Rights are a really a rather strange concept. We tend to think of them as something that is true and that exists whether or not we recognize it. But then how do we recognize them? How do we decide whether or not something is a right and exactly how that right is defined? And societally the answer to that question has thus far always been through by consensus. If you can persuade enough people that something is a right -- it becomes a right.
The things is, at least from a legal perspective, it has proven much easier to create new rights than to decide old ones weren't really rights. So maybe we should think really hard about the future consequences before we start enshrining new things as legal rights.
Which is why I'm asking, build the argument. Why is SSM the just thing to do? Why should people have the right to marry someone of the same gender? Use your best logic, your best heart render stories, your best persuasive ability and explain why people should consider this a right. Don't just keep repeating that its obvious. If it is really and truly as obvious as you claim, you should be able to support the argument really easily.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: The Rabbit, so would a law that allowed white people to sit in front of the bus or go stay at certain hotels wouldn't be discriminatory because it only disadvantaged people who desired something other than the law?
No. That creates different rules for different people based on their ancestry, not their desires. If a gene were identified as causing homosexuality and people who had that gene were prohibited from marrying, that would be discriminatory. But a law that prohibits everyone from marrying someone of the same gender is not explicitly discriminatory. It applies the same to gay people and straight people. It has discriminatory effects because gay people are far more likely to want to marry someone of the same sex.
quote:I'm really not sure where you are going with that.
I'm trying to point that we don't generally consider a law that impacts differently on people with different desires or behaviors to be disciminatory. Should we consider laws against murder discriminatory because black males are more likely to commit a murder that white females? No. If the law creates different rules for black males and white females who have the same desires and behaviors, then it is discriminatory.
quote:Again, you are not reading what I wrote. No. Laws do not consider a marriage fraudulent if two people aren't having sex. Like I wrote, "they can get married".
No, I don't know what insurance companies require, hence "may" be committing insurance fraud.
I read what your wrote but I'm afraid I don't understand your point in writing it. I was giving an example illustrating that the current laws apply equal to a straights and gays. If a pair of straight men wanted the legal benefits of marriage, the law would apply equally to them as it does to a gay pair of men who might want the legal benefits of marriage. The law is not explicitly discriminatory against gays since it would apply to any pair of many who wanted to marry and not only to a pair of men who wanted to marry because they were sexually attracted.
Let me give you another example. My husband and I have for most of our married life payed higher taxes because we were married. Some of our friends who have been together for nearly as long and who often represent themselves as a married couple, have never gotten married legally because of the financial disadvantages. My husband and I could do that as well but we don't want to (mostly for religious reasons). Do you think that the tax law discriminates against people of my religion?
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The Rabbit, gay people are not asking for the right to marry their cousins (which is actually allowed in many states) or underage people.
I think you may be hedging around getting rid of marriage rights altogether and I can sort of see that. Right now, though, straight people have the right to marry and start families with a consenting person and gay people do not have that right. That is not just. Keeping people from having the legal protection of a family is not kind.
We don't allow children to get married because they can't consent. We don't allow siblings to get married because of problems with reproduction and consent. And that may indeed not be just (see how I admitted that?) but there is a good reason for it. It is kind because letting children be raped is unkind.
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quote:As for the chocolate argument. Capitalism is not supposed to be fair; our legal system is supposed to be.
Capitalism is legal under our system. If its not fair, then how can we justify a legal system which defines and defends property rights determined by unfair capitalist market forces.
On second thought, lets not go there. I really not in the mood for a another fight with the libertarian crows. I've been called a monster enough on hatrack lately.
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"So do laws that require people to get a drivers license to use the public road ways discriminate against the group of people who don't want to get drivers licenses?"
Yes.
"Do tax laws discriminate against the group of people who don't want to pay taxes?"
Yes.
"Do laws against steeling descriminate against the group of people who want to take stuff that doesn't belong to them?"
Yes.
"Do laws against murder discriminate against people who want to kill somebody? "
Yes.
"I have a hard time buying off that a law is discriminatory because it disadvantages people who desire something other than the law."
As I said above, either you don't understand the law, or you don't understand the word "discriminate." Clearly, the failure in your understanding is over what the word "discriminate," means.
Discrimination in the law is not always wrong. But it is up to the state to justify any discrimination.
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Hey, I am not such a big fan of unfettered capitalism myself. Theoretically, people are supposed to have the same opportunity to make the money to buy the chocolate.
Yeah. Not so much.
And, just saying, calling people crows is not so civil and I have never called you a monster. Nor would I.
posted
" If you want to persuade people that SSM is just, then you have to provide arguments to support that because it isn't obvious."
What definition of "just" are you using that would say that current marriage laws in most states are just?
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: The things is, at least from a legal perspective, it has proven much easier to create new rights than to decide old ones weren't really rights. So maybe we should think really hard about the future consequences before we start enshrining new things as legal rights.
But we don't have to enshrine anything at all! Just say "The government can not count penises before giving couples their marriage license." That's it. That would solve all the problems. Then gay and straight and bi and transgendered and intersexed people, and whatever category I'm forgetting could all get honest marraiges.
quote:Which is why I'm asking, build the argument. Why is SSM the just thing to do?
If you don't understand it by now, you never will. If you would tell your gay child that he should never have an honest legal marriage like the rest of his friends and family, then there's no convincing you.
quote:Why should people have the right to marry someone of the same gender?
Why the hell shouldn't they? Why the hell should the government be looking down the pants of an intersexed person who lives as female and say "Sorry, your penile tissue is 2 cm too large for you to marry the man you love and who wants to marry you. Go find a woman."?
quote:Use your best logic, your best heart render stories, your best persuasive ability and explain why people should consider this a right. Don't just keep repeating that its obvious.
Those stories have been told for years, the arguments have been laid out. Some people are too morally obtuse to empathize.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Hey, I am not such a big fan of unfettered capitalism myself. Theoretically, people are supposed to have the same opportunity to make the money to buy the chocolate.
Yeah. Not so much.
And, just saying, calling people crows is not so civil and I have never called you a monster.
No, you haven't called me a monster. You are quite civil and I did not mean to imply otherwise. There are however other people who have participated in this thread who have called "a monster" and "worse than Hitler" in times past because I raised a question about property rights. I just really don't want to head down that road right now.
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swbarnes2, I don't think that The Rabbit actually believes the arguments she is defending.
I think (and I am guessing here so forgive me if I am way off) that she is just hurt and troubled by the idea of people that do believe those arguments being called unjust and unkind.
For what it is worth, I don't think that, ordinarily, those people are basically unjust or unkind. I don't think that most opponents of SSM think of the issue in terms of what is just or what is kind. I think most of them are thinking in terms of "we need to protect families" or "God says so" or some combination. I think that, if they started to think in terms of justice and kindness, they would see things differently because, at heart, most of them are kind people and fair people.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Paul, You are absolutley missing my point. I don't think current marriage laws in most states are just. But discriminatory is not the only form of injustice out there.
My point is, and has been through out this thread, that you can not build a persuasive argument for SSM unless you make an effort to actually understand that opposition. If you just demonize them and demean their position, it will go over well with the choir but you aren't going to win any converts.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:But we don't have to enshrine anything at all! Just say "The government can not count penises before giving couples their marriage license." That's it. That would solve all the problems. Then gay and straight and bi and transgendered and intersexed people, and whatever category I'm forgetting could all get honest marraiges.
And you think that wouldn't enshrine anything? Man you are naive.
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I understand the anti-ssm position. I've looked closely at it for years. There are two basic non-god arguments against equitable marriage:
"Straights are better than gays, either intrinsically or at some important task such as raising children." Or "I don't want my kids to learn that there are gays out there until I'm ready to tell my children about those people."
People keep trying to tell me they have other arguments, but they haven't advanced one yet that doesn't fit into those categories (plus "God told me too," which doesn't even merit categorization as an argument).
" If you just demonize them and demean their position, it will go over well with the choir but you aren't going to win any converts. "
I actually disagree with that statement, on this topic, because I don't think the people on the fence are there for reasons concerning the substance of the arguments anymore. I explained that in depth on another thread a few months ago.
That said, if you are arguing that anti-ssmers are acting out of what they think is justice, I'd like to know what definition of justice they are using.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... If you just demonize them and demean their position, it will go over well with the choir but you aren't going to win any converts.
Again, I wonder if this is actually true. The Gallup polls that I linked to earlier have historical results for same-sex marriage as well. Interestingly, most of the increase does seem to be due to converts.
While it is possible that the conversion is *in spite* of the current tactics employed which include a hefty amount of demonization and mockery. I'm starting to think that the change may actually be because of it.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: swbarnes2, I don't think that The Rabbit actually believes the arguments she is defending.
I would have thought so too, until she said that no one thought that consent was more than "hand-waving". She thought that you didn't care about consent either. That wasn't some hypothetical argument, that was her made-up strawman of your position.
Why ask other people to refute arguments that you already know how to refute?
quote:I think (and I am guessing here so forgive me if I am way off) that she is just hurt and troubled by the idea of people that do believe those arguments being called unjust and unkind.
If I arrested every member of the LDS church in her town because I sincerely believed the Mormons were awful people who belonged in prison, I don't think she would be troubled by the people calling me an authoritarian monster. I don't think she'd care a whit if I thought I was being just and kind, while her butt was languishing a prison cell.
quote:I think that, if they started to think in terms of justice and kindness, they would see things differently because, at heart, most of them are kind people and fair people.
In which case, telling people "Look at the consequences of what you are advocating. Look at how cruel and unfair it is" wouldn't be a bad strategy. But the attitude of "OMG!!!111 YOu have to let the true-believers do and say whatever they want, becasue telling them they are being pointlessly cruel and unfair is so mean!!!" precludes that approach.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Changes can be made with more or less tact. New Hampshire earned points when approving same sex marriage because the governor insisted on having it spelled out, among other things, that churches could not be compelled to perform same sex weddings. Under the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, there was zero chance the courts would permit such compulsion anyway - but having that written into the law made it more acceptable to the people of the state.
California did just the opposite in two ways. First the state altered marriage licenses to say those contracting were Party A - if I remember - and Party B. That annoyed a lot of heterosexuals who thought they were married to a husband or wife and not a party, and they protested so loudly the licenses had to be changed again to say Spouse A and Spouse B. That was acceptable wording, but bad feeling remained.
Secondly a lot of people worry that permitting SSM might have bad social effects. And California did not even ask whether spouses considered themselves male or female, nor whether they were from California or from out of state. So no one has any accurate figure for how many same sex marriages were performed, or where these couples might be living - so no studies can be done to show no detectable harm was done. Failing to keep any records on a major social experiment made voters nervous, and when voters get nervous about anything they tend to throw it out and start fresh. Or that is my opinion of voters anyway, for whatever it may be worth.
As a Californian, I should hate to say that Californians are just naturally dumb. California officials got taken by surprise because very few expected the California Supreme Court would suddenly insist on issuing marrage licenses to same sex couples. And New Hampshire made the change later, with plenty of time to prepare, and that state could learn from California's mistakes. Both sides in this controversy are now settling down for a long struggle, and some of the initial blunders will probably not happen again.
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