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Author Topic: computerized testing sucks....met with the Vice President of Health and Science yest
Kwea
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So far this year I have had to take 2 tests over because the test booted my answers when I hit submit. I THOUGHT that was the worst that could hapen, until today.

I had problems wiht teh mouse, and was banging it all test long. It was an older ball and sockey mouse, and it had a level rather than a mouse wheel on top too.

I rechecked my answers, and as I moved down the page, some of my answers were moved right to the bottom, so that regardless of what I had picked, my answer was now D.

Unless I scrolled back up, and then it was A.


UGH!


I got a 70, and there were at LEAST 8 answers wrong because of that. Simple things, that I knew because of my own life (like tetracycline making you photosensitive, and how to test for parasitical infection.), that I KNOW beyond ANY doubt that I picked the right answer.

I had an 82 in the class, but now it's a 78, only 3 percent from failing this program

I am PISSED! And I don't know what the teacher will do. Not much she CAN do, really.


GRRR!

All joking aside, I almost threw the computer through the window. It's one thing to mess up because you didn't study, or just don;t know the material. But to know it, put the right answer down, and STILL not get credit...that's BULLSHIT.

I'm going to the Dean and insisting I take all tests with paper and pencil. I don't think the teachers convenience should trump my grades.

[ August 27, 2009, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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Xavier
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Not that it's helpful now, but I can't imagine me taking a test and not calling my instructor (or proctor) over to show them my difficulty.

I'd imagine there were circumstances preventing this from being an option?

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Kwea
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I thought it was working, it was just a little difficult. I didn't see the mouse causing the answers to change because it didn't happen until I did the test review. As I reviewed answers, I'd finish the question and use the mouse wheel to scroll down. As I did this, the answer would change, but the question would also roll up, off the screen.

My instructor was sitting right next to me, and heard me shaking it and banging it, but as I thought it was working, just stubborn, I didn't say anything until I submitted the test.

As I scrolled down on the test review, it didn't show my answers, but it did tell me what I got wrong, and what the right answer was. I thought I had just made a mistake or two, but then I missed 4 answers in a row that I remembered clear as day....and I had selected the answer the computer said was correct.

I hate this crap. I got a 70%, which is failing, on a test that I had AT LEAST an 86%, and I doubt I can prove any of it.

Keep in mind that I bombed a test earlier this semester, and the teacher asked if I had had a problem. I said nope, I just wasn't prepared.

If I screw up, fine. But this is bullshit. I'll go see the Dean tomorrow, and her boss after that if I don't get at least a retest.

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AchillesHeel
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Just in case, bring your own mouse.
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Jamio
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How are computer tests more convenient for the teacher than scantron? When I was in school, my instructors hated computerized tests for the very problems you are having.
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MightyCow
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You can clean a ball-mouse by unscrewing the bottom (it should pop open with a quarter turn) then scraping the accumulated gunk off the rollers inside with your fingernail or a pen cap. Then just replace the ball and lock it back in place and it should run much more smoothly.
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scifibum
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I've had that problem with scroll wheels and option groups as well. [Frown] You need to click on another part of the page to ensure that scrolling won't change your selection.

Good luck getting a re-test.

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Tstorm
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Scroll wheels may not be easy to clean.

Suggestion?

You can use the "Page Up" or "Page Down" buttons to scroll down the page. This shouldn't impact your selections on any forms, in my experience. Just forget the mouse wheel.

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DSH
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If you are going to be taking these kind of tests more often, you might learn to navigate a computer screen using the keyboard only.

It's a pain, but can be done!

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Boris
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It sounds like the testing software itself is collecting input incorrectly if use of the scroll wheel/lever is causing the answers to change. At the very least, reporting that should go up the chain to the company that writes the software. It sounds like a very poor implementation to me.

All of the computerized tests I've taken have had test questions on their own page, so you have to click a button to go to the next page. If the software really requires you to scroll down to see the next question, it's very poorly written.

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fugu13
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That's just standard web browser behavior with some sorts of selection widgets in web pages. There's nothing really about the software, other than that they might consider using less changeable widgets.
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Corwin
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Boris: Yeah, that's my thought too. Bad programming, really. I've seen this before on non-professional tests, it can certainly wreck things if you're not careful.
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Corwin
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fugu: Hmm, can't you make the radio-button selection unscrollable with javascript?
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Noemon
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Kwea, did any of your classmates run into similar trouble? You'd probably have better luck with getting a retest (and paper-based tests in the future) if a group of you petitioned for it.
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Badenov
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quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
That's just standard web browser behavior with some sorts of selection widgets in web pages. There's nothing really about the software, other than that they might consider using less changeable widgets.

Which still means it's a poorly implemented design. If you have to scroll down to view the whole test, it's a poor design choice to utilize a widget that is scrollable. I imagine the problem wouldn't exist if they chose check boxes instead of radio buttons for answer selection.

Further, it shows a lot about the company who wrote the software if they chose a browser based system over a self-contained platform (Such as the one use by Prometric, for example). This simple fact shows that they care more about cost and ease of creation that capability and integrity.

I guess this is just another example of shoddy work done by the lowest bidder.

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BannaOj
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In order to have a backup copy, could you do a print screen when your answers are in, before going to the next screen?
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Kwea
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Nope, we can;t print anything, or save anything related to a test, it's all disabled. Nursing uses similar questions year to year, so there has been a problem in the past with people copying a test and giving it to a friend, or selling it to the next class.

I'm going to see the Dean tomorrow, and if she doesn't have the answer I want, then I head to the Dean of Student Services. This crap has to stop now.

If they can't design a fair test on the computer, then they need to stop using it for testing.

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
Kwea, did any of your classmates run into similar trouble? You'd probably have better luck with getting a retest (and paper-based tests in the future) if a group of you petitioned for it.


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just_me
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I'm not trying to be a jerk, even though it seems like it, but...

As I understand it this is a test for nursing school? I'd just like to point out then that the medical industry uses A LOT of different software of varying sophistication, and some of it will likely be built on a web browser platform and exhibit similar behavior. Mistakes like the ones you talk about could happen - and the results can be worse than a bad grade.

I'm just pointing out that the argument can be made that it's your responsibility to understand the tool (the computer) you are using and make sure this type of thing doesn't happen... no one is going to be able to give you a redo if you screw it up out in the "real world" later.

That said I do absolutely think this sucks for you and I think you definitely should push for a solution to it. The I argument I just mentioned above falls apart because in the "real world" you'd be able to print the info or at least review it in a different manner to make sure it's correct, and medical software usually has better error checking than crappy test taking software.

They really should have a "review mode" where you can see what you answered but can't actually change anything just to make sure something like this doesn't happen...

good luck!

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King of Men
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Clearly, the test was in two parts: One, information on nursing; two, ability to deal with real-world computer interfaces. You get an 'F' on the second part.
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Orincoro
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That's not fair KoM- the interface was obviously flawed, so perhaps an "Incomplete" in dealing with flawed computer interfaces.
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King of Men
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An interface is not flawed if there's an obvious workaround like, I don't know, not messing with the dang scroll button once you figure out the problem.
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Corwin
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Meh, sometimes you'll figure it too late. If he were one of our clients I doubt that "you don't know how to use a badly designed tool" would really work as an excuse.
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by just_me:
I'm not trying to be a jerk, even though it seems like it, but...

As I understand it this is a test for nursing school? I'd just like to point out then that the medical industry uses A LOT of different software of varying sophistication, and some of it will likely be built on a web browser platform and exhibit similar behavior. Mistakes like the ones you talk about could happen - and the results can be worse than a bad grade.

Having worked with many different types of medical IT environments in my day, as well as many different types of medical software, I can tell you that the likelihood of simply using a scroll wheel resulting in severe consequences is virtually nil. Any software company that creates a software suite that could result in such a mistake will very quickly find itself sued out of existence.

All IT assets (hardware, software, etc) used in the medical industry *must* comply with HIPAA standards. What you'll find is that there is only one or two different companies that create software for use in a specific type of practice. And that these software suites are *always* extremely expensive (I've seen costs as much as 20,000 dollars for a single workstation license) and often quite well designed. This is because software must be approved by the Department of Health and Human Services before it can be legally sold for use in the medical industry. They are required to be extremely secure and, because it is used by medical professionals who cannot be guaranteed to be technically savvy, often quite user friendly. Which this test obviously wasn't.

And KoM, get your head out of your butt for once. Your "holier than thou" attitude is nothing more than annoying at this point.

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King of Men
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Well, I clearly am holier than thou. In particular, I poked my tongue so far into my cheek it came out on the other side. Ouch.
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Orincoro
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Prst strč skrz krk.
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Well, I clearly am holier than thou. In particular, I poked my tongue so far into my cheek it came out on the other side. Ouch.

Yeah, see, people who make a habit of trying to piss people off regularly shouldn't ever try the whole tongue in cheek thing.
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Kwea
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I got that, man, and wasn;t offended. I was going to post pretending to be pissed off, but tone is hard to convey.

I get a B on the test. THEY get the F, in programming. [Big Grin]

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Kwea
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I spoke to the Dean yesterday, and while I sort of doubt anything will happen, she was VERY interested, because this doesn't affect JUST the nursing program.

I made the point about "How many people failed because of this, and no one noticed?" as well as the fact that I wondered on EVERY TEST so far about some of my answers, but I thought I just didn't remember clearly what I had picked.

She looked me in the face and said that if this really happened, they shouldn't be using Angel for testing. I agreed, and offered to retest.

If I don;t hear from her by Monday, I go to the Dean of the whole freaking college.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Well, I clearly am holier than thou. In particular, I poked my tongue so far into my cheek it came out on the other side. Ouch.

Yeah, see, people who make a habit of trying to piss people off regularly shouldn't ever try the whole tongue in cheek thing.
Yeah... those people. Gotta... really... think... those people do... about making comments... about other people... when they themselves do the same thing... those... gosh darn people.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:

If I don't hear from her by Monday, I go to the Dean of the whole freaking college.

I'm glad there are people like you at your college who are aren't willing to take crap like this lying down. Unfortunately this kind of thing is way too common, and the attitude toward it is way too relaxed.
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Well, I clearly am holier than thou. In particular, I poked my tongue so far into my cheek it came out on the other side. Ouch.

Yeah, see, people who make a habit of trying to piss people off regularly shouldn't ever try the whole tongue in cheek thing.
Yeah... those people. Gotta... really... think... those people do... about making comments... about other people... when they themselves do the same thing... those... gosh darn people.
That made no sense whatsoever. Try again please.
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Kwea
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We will see if it makes any difference, as I have no power, and can't force things to change all by myself.

So far I've already been questioned about hacking/ethics, and now this, when it is system flaws and a lack of communication that is responsible for all of this crap.

I am not the one who designed the system, so I can't be responsible for the flaws, but if the teachers end up having to hand grade tests I know I'll get the flack for it.

And as our clinical grades are pass/fail, and completely based on our instructor's opinion of our performance, I could be setting myself up for trouble down the line.

Then again, I'd rather be in trouble for fighting this crap than take it laying down and thank them for it.

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BandoCommando
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Hand grade? Have all of the scantron machines broken? Have all the graduate teaching fellows come down with H1N1?
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Kwea
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We don't have Grad students at a community college, and I think this computer system replaced all the scantrons. [Smile]
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dabbler
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Kwea haven't you had like a half dozen problems with the computerized system during your coursework? It's enough to drive anyone bonkers.
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Kwea
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Yeah, I had 2 tests completely reset so that I had to retake them, and then I had the issue where the tests were released for the entire course the second week of school accidentally...I didn't log in, and I reported it ASAP.

Then the review issue, where they weren't locking it, and a TEACHER showed me how to access the review, then another teacher said that was an ethics violation.


This system sucks, and I am sick of it. I just want a test that accurately records what I think the answers are and that is consistent. I didn't realize that is was asking too much, I guess.

[ July 25, 2009, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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CaySedai
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I can sympathize: all my tests last year were web-based. Sometimes the school's server was down, or having problems, and even quit while we were either taking the test or logging in. The instructor had to reschedule. In at least one case, I was already taking the test and had to retake it.
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Kwea
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At least with the other options there is a paper trail to prove what you actually put down as the answer.
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Kwea
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I took a final today, and double checked all my answers. When I asked about an alternative form of testing, I was told I had to take it on the computer.

I asked for scrap paper, and was given a piece 6 inches long and 4 inches wide.

I submitted my answers, and saw my score....a 66%, on a test I felt good about. I scrolled down, and....

There were 14 answers not filled in, 12 of them in a row. 3 pages worth, in a freaking row. I called the teacher over, and she just shrugged and said she would talk to tech support.

I almost threw the freaking thing out of the room.

I met with the Dean, right after the test, and she said tech support had looked into the previous problem, and when he had logged on he had not been able to use the mouse button to change answers. I told the dean I tried to do that on question one today, and it wasn't moving like it had a few days ago, and I thought they had fixed it.

I asked her how the hell I had missed 3 PAGES of questions (4 to a page), IN A ROW, and she had no answer. I asked her if she had had tech support check my answers, ans they had told her all of the questions I challenged had been incorrectly answered as option D, the last option allowed....as I had said.

I told her it was unacceptable, and that I was considering seeing a lawyer of it was not quickly resolved. I asked her what time frame I needed to use to get back to her, and she said tomorrow, IF she could get in touch with tech support by then.

I told her that I was bringing my OWN scrap paper, and writing down EVERY answer to the final tomorrow, and giving it to the teacher BEFORE I hit submit as a safeguard.

If I don;t get full credit for all of these, or at least have the 14 questions REMOVED from the grade calculation, then I will be visiting the Dean of the whole freaking Health Services program tomorrow, and then the Dean of the school.

I almost FAILED THE FREAKING CLASS because of those 2 tests. I passed, as things stand now, with a 76.65%.

75% is FAILING, AND IF YOU FAIL YOU CAN'T PROGRESS AND FLUNK OUT OF THE WHOLE PROGRAM.


Pissed off doesn't even begin to describe my attitude.

Worst part is I failed, legitimately, the last
med-surg test, and have a 77% in that class. I thought I had a problem with an earlier test, but the teacher brushed it off and I let it go because I wasn't sure then.

So now I get to try and study for a final worth 20% of my grade, and anything less then a 73% on it means I fail. The class average in this class on the last 2 tests, even after adjustments, was a 70%.

[Mad]

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Kwea
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They adjusted everyones scores (not related to my issues) and I ended up passing with a 78%, so this cost me a B if it doesn't get fixed.

I still have Med-Surg and Peads, but I have an 82% in Peads and an extra day to study for it....it is the Med-Surg that worries me now.

Off to study!

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TL
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This is horrible. I hope it all works out for you. I really do.
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Belle
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I'm so sorry. Sounds frustrating, but at this point you are passing, right? So, hang in there, don't let the frustration affect your final exams. Try to put it out of your mind and just study and focus on doing your best.

quote:
I think this computer system replaced all the scantrons
I guarantee that this computer system did not replace all the scantron machines. Educators have a hard time throwing things away...they are there, somewhere.
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TomDavidson
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I'm actually willing to bet this computer system IS actually a Scantron online exam. When you buy the Scantron administrative module that allows your faculty to share and import banks of questions between tests, they throw in this web-based testing module -- which sucks beyond all possible measure.
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Kwea
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Well, it too an 83 average and made it a 77% average. It's still passing, but how many other people have already flunked out, or are about to, because of this?
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Dr Strangelove
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Kwea, if you don't mind me asking, what program are you using to test? Is it strictly online, or specific to your college or distributed by a company? I work for a testing center and starting in August we're administering the HESI A2 (entrance exam for our nursing school) and if its by the same company I'd love to know so that if something like this happens we can tell the students to talk to the nursing school, and tell the nursing school that there might by a technical problem. A heads up on these type of things can save a lot of headaches. I hate to admit it, but sometimes us test administrators/proctors can be... less understanding then perhaps we should be. At least where I work we get a lot of people coming in and pretty obviously trying to take advantage of us, so we can be a pretty dismissive sometimes. Apologies to you on behalf of the testing profession [Smile] .
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
which sucks beyond all possible measure.

Check. [Razz]

Kwea, good luck!

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Kwea
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It's called Angel, and it is a system for online testing and distribution of grades. It covers testing, discussion boards, placed for teachers to post info and powerpoints, homework submissions,. It also has communications features such as email (to teachers, classmates, classes total, classes specific).

It shows us our current testing averages, and depending how it is set up it can also let us compare our scores to the class average.

I theory it works great. In reality, not so great. Half the teachers don't know how to use it well, so sometimes the test reviews let us see what we picked as well as the correct answers, sometimes not; sometime we can see our test grades broken down, sometimes not; sometimes the computer kicks you out of the test when you nhit submit, back to the beginning wiht no answers filled in....and sometimes it kicks you out and gives you a 0, and the teacher has to go back into it and wipe your score, and then you take it all over again.

The incidence rate in nursing is probably only 1-2%....but we have 4-6 tests per class a semester, with 48 students taking each test, and each of us having 4-6 classes. That breaks down to an average of about 24 tests per student per semester, or about 1000 tests taken per semester.

At 2%, that means that there is at least 20 screw ups per semester....and in this program, any grade less than 75% in any class, for any semester, means you fail out and have to repeat the entire semester....and the program only starts once a year, in January.

Some mistakes are easily fixed....most of the time the student just resubmits his answers. Sometimes you don't notice answers got changed, though, or aren't sure if it is the computers fault or your own. Sometimes it messes up just a few things, and it is easy to miss.

I have to honest...this sounds like a class action lawsuit waiting to happen.


Gotta go finish studying for the last final.

Later!

[ August 27, 2009, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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King of Men
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Well, you know what they call the guy who was bottom in his class at med school, right?
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rivka
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Doc?
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