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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » R.I.P. Brittany Murphy (UPDATE: Murphy's Husband Dies) (Page 1)

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Author Topic: R.I.P. Brittany Murphy (UPDATE: Murphy's Husband Dies)
Valentine014
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Rumors say heart attack.

See last post for husband update link.

[ May 24, 2010, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Valentine014 ]

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rivka
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Heart attack at 32 doesn't simply mean heart attack, usually.
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El JT de Spang
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As I said on twitter this morning, I bet it was precipitated by anorexia.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
As I said on twitter this morning, I bet it was precipitated by anorexia.

Aggravated by a combination of stimulants and opioids is my guess. This is indeed a sad pattern among celebrities.
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El JT de Spang
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That's possible, too, but less likely. In my totally uninformed opinion. She's married, and never had a rep as a party girl.

She was perilously thin, though, especially for her frame and when compared to when she was in her teens.

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Orincoro
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Well, you don't have to got to parties to get addicted to opiates- Michael Jackson didn't have parties, and by the time he died he had graduated to surgical grade anesthetics.
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sinflower
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She also had a history of diabetes.
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El JT de Spang
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True, although in Michael's case I think we'll find that that happened because he had so many freaking procedures done.
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breyerchic04
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didn't she just get fired from a movie a few weeks ago
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Dobbie
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It's really unfair to be speculating about this at all.
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Rakeesh
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Or at least pretty distasteful.
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breyerchic04
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Right but when I read about this on twitter I assumed it was like RIP Kanye, talking about her career and not her life. Since I remembered something about her getting fired recently.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
True, although in Michael's case I think we'll find that that happened because he had so many freaking procedures done.

No, that happened because he was an addict and he surrounded himself with enabling people, including doctors. The surgeries stemmed from and were a part of the addiction, not the other way around.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
It's really unfair to be speculating about this at all.

No, when someone dies in what are clearly not normal circumstances, it is, in my opinion, an unhealthy impulse to keep our mouths shut about our suspicions for fear of "speaking ill of the dead." Especially if this woman did indeed suffer from a disorder of some sort, that has to be confronted as a real possibility, rather than something distasteful and which we'd rather not discuss. These are diseases we are talking about, not the morality of the recently deceased. You would not get up in arms if we were speculating about whether it was an aneurysm or cancer- so think of bulimia and drug addiction as similar disease states.
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Dobbie
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No. If someone you know possibly has a disorder of some sort then there may be some benefit to confronting it. Now you're just using her death as fodder for your entertainment.
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Samprimary
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We live in an era of Action Forensics Drama on network television. Death is speculated upon casually. In the case of celebrities, unstoppably so.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
No, when someone dies in what are clearly not normal circumstances, it is, in my opinion, an unhealthy impulse to keep our mouths shut about our suspicions for fear of "speaking ill of the dead."
Except you really have no idea whether the circumstances were normal or not, do you? Statistically speaking, it certainly was abnormal, but maybe there were some specifics in her life that make this normal as well, without the stigma of drug addiction or mental health problems entering into things at all.

Maybe she had a heart attack because she was poisoned by a rival actor or actress, who knows? Are drug addiction or anorexia or bulimia 'real possibilities'? Well, obviously. But in the complete absence of evidence, it's unreasonable and unfair to speculate as to the cause of death.

Especially since, unfortunately, I'm sure we'll be neck deep in tabloid news all about it very soon anyway, so why not just wait 24 hours or so for some real facts to come in?

quote:
We live in an era of Action Forensics Drama on network television. Death is speculated upon casually. In the case of celebrities, unstoppably so.
That speculation will happen is unstoppable, of course. That it is definitely, unavoidably going to happen on an individual level is a very different thing, and quite untrue. It won't stop, it's not unstoppable.
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DDDaysh
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I have no idea who this woman was, and really don't care enough to even google to find out.

However, just because someone is dead does not automatically make above reproach. Even if it is just for entertainment, what is the harm in online speculation? It's not like anyone was saying this stuff to her grieving family.

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Fyfe
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I was sad when I read this! I loved her so much in Clueless. [Frown]
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
No. If someone you know possibly has a disorder of some sort then there may be some benefit to confronting it. Now you're just using her death as fodder for your entertainment.

You aren't in a position to know whether I am entertained by such things. I am not.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
No, when someone dies in what are clearly not normal circumstances, it is, in my opinion, an unhealthy impulse to keep our mouths shut about our suspicions for fear of "speaking ill of the dead."
Except you really have no idea whether the circumstances were normal or not, do you? Statistically speaking, it certainly was abnormal, but maybe there were some specifics in her life that make this normal as well, without the stigma of drug addiction or mental health problems entering into things at all.

Maybe she had a heart attack because she was poisoned by a rival actor or actress, who knows? Are drug addiction or anorexia or bulimia 'real possibilities'? Well, obviously. But in the complete absence of evidence, it's unreasonable and unfair to speculate as to the cause of death.

You see it as unfair and unreasonable because drugs and bulimia are involved in the speculation. If it was between two non-stigmatized diseases, then you wouldn't be piping up, or at least fewer people would be. But you have to consciously choose to treat those diseases as no different in root cause than any other. Considering that the United States has been in something of a prescription drug abuse epidemic in this past decade, not to mention an even older problem of EDs, we need to be able and willing to talk openly about such things without feeding the stigma. Again, I don't consider it a moral issue, and though I make no definitive statements as of yet about what actually happened, since I don't know, I feel no compunction in stating that these are the likely culprits in such a case, barring less likely but possible explanations.

I think if 4 high school kids plow into a tree at 100 miles an hour at 3am on a friday night, everybody reiterates to themselves and neighbors the dangers of teen alcohol abuse- but maybe that 17 year old driver had a heart attack, or a seizure. I simply don't see it as crass to discuss these things in light of the circumstances. Quite the opposite, I find it distasteful that the media has spent so many years helpfully spouting euphemisms like the "heart attacks" of Elvis and Michael Jackson, to name only two infamous examples. Considering that these gossip mills like TMZ get everything about celebrities lives wrong while they're actually alive, the indignity of their deaths being treated like shameful reminders of low morals or personal weakness, rather than the effects of a disease state that is common, is much more insulting to me.

Now, what that all boils down to is that I think it's perfectly reasonable to voice my suspicion that a skeletally thin actress with a long series of personal and professional problems and disappointments, who lives in a community and in a profession infamous for a culture of elicit and prescription drug abuse and body image issues, who drops dead suddenly at the age of 32 after being fired from her most recent job, while her husband, himself recently hospitalized in bizarre circumstances, states that he does not wish an autopsy to be performed, while prescription medications were collected from the scene of the death, might have had a drug problem or an eating disorder. I don't think that's a crazy unreasonable leap to make. I find it quite reasonable. I will, of course, drop it completely if it turns out not to be true, but I see no harm, whatsoever, in stating it as a suspicion.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I will, of course, drop it completely if it turns out not to be true...
Then...why not wait? The truth will out in any event, and just as there isn't actually any harm being done to anyone here, there's certainly no benefit, either-or is this some sort of stance on equalizing drug addiction and bulimia in the public eye? Convoluted path to that goal if so.

quote:
Considering that the United States has been in something of a prescription drug abuse epidemic in this past decade, not to mention an even older problem of EDs, we need to be able and willing to talk openly about such things without feeding the stigma.
Well, that's begging the question, isn't it? We need to not feed the stigma because it isn't fair to stigmatize it. Not very compelling. But even if it was, saying, "It's distasteful to speculate like this before there are any facts at all," hardly 'feeds the stigma'. Note that the objections made were on speculating, not on discussing the matter at all.
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Orincoro
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I'm not particularly interested in your opinion, to be honest. I was stating my reason, not inviting further discussion. You've been heard- we disagree.
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Rakeesh
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Imagine my surprise.

Though there were quite a few persuasive-argument statements in that post for 'not inviting further discussion'.

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Orincoro
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I'm sorry to have misled you. It's simply not something I think will be productive to talk about with you- especially considering the thrust of your argument was essentially that you didn't want me to say anything- so here you have it. Don't get pissy.
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Rakeesh
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I'm certainly not being any pissier than you, Orincoro. I was just remarking that it was a strange time to say, "I don't want to talk about this," after talking about it at some length. And being curt almost to the point of rudeness doing so.

And, no, my argument was not that I didn't want you to say anything.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
I will, of course, drop it completely if it turns out not to be true...
Then...why not wait?
Yeah, no. Look, you convinced me that talking to you about this is not productive. I have finally learned this from you. You have finally succeeded. I hope that it is everything you hoped it would be.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
That speculation will happen is unstoppable, of course. That it is definitely, unavoidably going to happen on an individual level is a very different thing, and quite untrue. It won't stop, it's not unstoppable.

Well there's also the part where on an individual level I don't see what's patently objectionable about it.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Yeah, no. Look, you convinced me that talking to you about this is not productive. I have finally learned this from you. You have finally succeeded. I hope that it is everything you hoped it would be.
Well, if you actually had 'learned that talking to me about this is not productive', perhaps I could decide whether or not it was everything I hoped it would be. But it doesn't appear you have, because you're still talking about it.

-----

quote:
Well there's also the part where on an individual level I don't see what's patently objectionable about it.
Well, sure-that's a different question, though.
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andi330
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
That speculation will happen is unstoppable, of course. That it is definitely, unavoidably going to happen on an individual level is a very different thing, and quite untrue. It won't stop, it's not unstoppable.

Well there's also the part where on an individual level I don't see what's patently objectionable about it.
Here's what I find objectionable about it. The news media has clearly stated that the Coroner made a statement that she died of natural causes. There are any number of medical conditions that could have led to a death by natural causes for this young woman. Anything from a genetic disorder to some kind of cancer, yet all anyone is speculating about is drug use and eating disorders. Even the paparazzi hasn't started speculating about drug use or eating disorders as far as I can tell. Why is it that this forum is speculating about something even the paparazzi isn't? Until the coroner completes his autopsy and releases his findings, there's no reason to speculate. It could be a case of SADS (sudden arrhythmia death syndrome) for all we know.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by andi330:
The news media has clearly stated that the Coroner made a statement that she died of natural causes.

The statement was actually far more vague than that. Anyway, at this point there's no way they can know that. Certain things can be ruled out by on-scene evidence (like that she wasn't killed with a blunt object); most will need a complete autopsy to rule out.
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Orincoro
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Yeah, it's like I saw a news title attached to something on google saying essentially: "Brittany Murphy claimed by same sickness as Michael Jackson:... cardiac arrest." Oh, all the brave souls who have been claimed by the pernicious cardiac arrest.
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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
It's really unfair to be speculating about this at all.

No, when someone dies in what are clearly not normal circumstances, it is, in my opinion, an unhealthy impulse to keep our mouths shut about our suspicions for fear of "speaking ill of the dead." Especially if this woman did indeed suffer from a disorder of some sort, that has to be confronted as a real possibility, rather than something distasteful and which we'd rather not discuss. These are diseases we are talking about, not the morality of the recently deceased. You would not get up in arms if we were speculating about whether it was an aneurysm or cancer- so think of bulimia and drug addiction as similar disease states.
It's crass. If you've ever personally known someone whose death caused speculation from strangers on the internet of any kind, you will know how just how crass it is.

Whatever you talk about on this site, you do so for your own entertainment. Just because the subject is death and disease, and you might not be laughing while typing doesn't mean it isn't entertainment for you.

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
True, although in Michael's case I think we'll find that that happened because he had so many freaking procedures done.

No, that happened because he was an addict and he surrounded himself with enabling people, including doctors. The surgeries stemmed from and were a part of the addiction, not the other way around.
You're doing that thing again, where you act like you know something for sure when in actuality you're just guessing. Unless you'd care to source this?
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
No, when someone dies in what are clearly not normal circumstances, it is, in my opinion, an unhealthy impulse to keep our mouths shut about our suspicions for fear of "speaking ill of the dead."
Except you really have no idea whether the circumstances were normal or not, do you? Statistically speaking, it certainly was abnormal, but maybe there were some specifics in her life that make this normal as well, without the stigma of drug addiction or mental health problems entering into things at all.

Maybe she had a heart attack because she was poisoned by a rival actor or actress, who knows? Are drug addiction or anorexia or bulimia 'real possibilities'? Well, obviously. But in the complete absence of evidence, it's unreasonable and unfair to speculate as to the cause of death.

The 'complete absence of evidence' for either anorexia or drugs? Really? I know hyperbole is fun, but that's just silly.
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Rakeesh
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So you have some evidence that either anorexia or drug use caused or helped to cause her death?
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El JT de Spang
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I guessed anorexia because I have a brain and two eyes. I suppose Orin guessed drugs because of either the tabloid reportings of her drug problems or simply because it's always a good guess with young celebrities dying young.

Neither of those is hard evidence (which is why you'll notice we were both clear that we were speculating); neither is the 'complete absence of evidence' as you claimed. Absolutes are funny that way.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:

Whatever you talk about on this site, you do so for your own entertainment. Just because the subject is death and disease, and you might not be laughing while typing doesn't mean it isn't entertainment for you.

I'll remind you of your lack of mind reading powers, and ask you not to speculate on my personal motivations in this case. You are, as I've already stated, incorrect.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
You're doing that thing again, where you act like you know something for sure when in actuality you're just guessing. Unless you'd care to source this?

It's far from a guess. Jackson's death was ruled a homicide, and his personal physician is currently under investigation for manslaughter.

Linky. His autopsy showed large amounts of powerful anesthetics and benzodiazepines: propofol, lorazepam and midazolam. Propofol is a surgical drug used under general anesthesia, and the AP reported that Jackson was being administered these drugs on a regular basis to maintain sleep.

At the very least, that Jackson had a severe drug addiction is an educated guess. I think though, it's a near certainty. I also think that given the nature of the popular cultural denial of what drug addiction is and looks like, and given Jackson's estate and partners' financial motives for preserving his image and pretending his life was not an empty shell of despair for the last 10 years, which is what allowed him to spiral into hundreds of millions of dollars of debt, and surround himself with people who were perfectly willing to dose him with dangerous drugs to keep him docile and compliant, I think that, as in the case of Elvis, the proverbial 40 pound colon full of perscription medications will be overlooked in popular memory, and we'll be left with "heart attack." That, and Janis Joplin choked on a sandwich.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Neither of those is hard evidence (which is why you'll notice we were both clear that we were speculating); neither is the 'complete absence of evidence' as you claimed. Absolutes are funny that way.
In what way are either her weight or her reported drug problems evidence that that's what killed her, though, is my question? I didn't say you had no evidence she had anorexia, I said you had no evidence that that's what killed her. You have, in fact, no actual facts at all about her personal life, or at least you didn't mention any. Hell, you even acknowledged your own opinion as 'totally uninformed'.
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Orincoro
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Oh be quiet- since when did you become the guardian of lost souls?
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Samprimary
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quote:
Here's what I find objectionable about it. The news media has clearly stated that the Coroner made a statement that she died of natural causes. There are any number of medical conditions that could have led to a death by natural causes for this young woman. Anything from a genetic disorder to some kind of cancer, yet all anyone is speculating about is drug use and eating disorders. Even the paparazzi hasn't started speculating about drug use or eating disorders as far as I can tell. Why is it that this forum is speculating about something even the paparazzi isn't?
Um, both the paparazzi and the media world they fuel are openly speculating about it.

quote:
Until the coroner completes his autopsy and releases his findings, there's no reason to speculate.
'there's no reason to speculate' is entirely false. Hopefully I don't have to explain why?

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
So you have some evidence that either anorexia or drug use caused or helped to cause her death?

I think you're lacking perspective here. This isn't a court of law. Nobody here needs photo evidence or medical records to prove anything so that it can fulfill some standard of 'admissible internet speculation.'
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Oh be quiet- since when did you become the guardian of lost souls?
Can't you go back to not wanting to talk about this with me? Well, actually, even when you said that, you didn't live up to it, so going back to it won't change much.

----

quote:
I think you're lacking perspective here. This isn't a court of law. Nobody here needs photo evidence or medical records to prove anything so that it can fulfill some standard of 'admissible internet speculation.'
It's strange to be accused of lacking perspective about this when I've never said or even suggested there was some requirement for speculation, Samprimary. All I said was, "Geeze, this is pretty distasteful considering there isn't any evidence that either anorexia or drug use were her cause of death, or contributed to it. Especially since just wait a few days and it'll all come out anyway."

In response to this I got some nonsense about how this speculation was actually some sort of service to drug addicts and anorexics, and now I'm accused of thinking there are some sort of actual requirements here.

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Jim-Me
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I'd just like to point out that I've known three separate people, who were otherwise the picture of health, who died of sudden, unexplained cardiac arrest at a very young age. One of them was an Air Force Academy cadet who simply dropped dead during an intramural tennis game. All three were the result of a minor birth defect that went undetected till autopsy.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim-Me:
who were otherwise the picture of health

I think this is the key phrase.

Murphy most certainly was not.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Oh be quiet- since when did you become the guardian of lost souls?
Can't you go back to not wanting to talk about this with me? Well, actually, even when you said that, you didn't live up to it, so going back to it won't change much.

Perhaps you should stop being a holier than thou gainsayer- in fact if you do, I bet *everybody* will stop talking about this.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
That, and Janis Joplin choked on a sandwich.

That would be Mama Cass.
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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim-Me:
I'd just like to point out that I've known three separate people, who were otherwise the picture of health, who died of sudden, unexplained cardiac arrest at a very young age. One of them was an Air Force Academy cadet who simply dropped dead during an intramural tennis game. All three were the result of a minor birth defect that went undetected till autopsy.

This happened to the 18 year old son of one of my colleagues. He dropped during a soccer game, and the only reason he survived is that one of the other players was a med student who did CPR until the ambulance arrived and they were very, very close to a hospital so they got him there fast. The doctors said there is about a 3% survival rate for that type of incident.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
It's strange to be accused of lacking perspective about this when I've never said or even suggested there was some requirement for speculation, Samprimary. All I said was, "Geeze, this is pretty distasteful considering there isn't any evidence that either anorexia or drug use were her cause of death, or contributed to it. Especially since just wait a few days and it'll all come out anyway."

Exactly. You're saying it's distasteful and objecting to it in a way that suggests that it shouldn't be done, and you are hinging it all on a proof requirement.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Perhaps you should stop being a holier than thou gainsayer- in fact if you do, I bet *everybody* will stop talking about this.
Well, I'm hardly inclined to take your word for that, having already said you weren't going to talk about this with me and then failed to do so repeatedly:)

----

quote:
Exactly. You're saying it's distasteful and objecting to it in a way that suggests that it shouldn't be done, and you are hinging it all on a proof requirement.
No, not 'proof requirement'. 'Evidence requirement', and it's obviously not a requirement that has any teeth. Certainly not a courtroom standard, which is what you were saying.
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